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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 05-10-2012, 10:33 PM   #1
Versus
 
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Sell me on something.

I'm looking for a good argument for free healthcare. Can someone provide me a reference? There's a guy at work that compares government assistance to freeloading off hardworking Americans, and I want him to be wrong so bad. He's already conceded that the majority of people who receive it are in genuine need, but feels it's wrong because of this demon minority that is intent on taking handouts.

I told him that the system is wrong in the same way that he can't implicitly trust people to not try to harm him without carrying a gun, or to respect his valuables without leaving them secured, but he doesn't see the comparison.

Any ideas?
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:54 PM   #2
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Handouts? As much as I disagree with it there's always someone who's like "I know a guy who doesn't look for a job and just keeps mooching off on welfare and uses the money on drugs" but does anyone do that with healthcare?

"I know a guy who keeps taking out these free flu vaccines, what a mooch."
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:29 PM   #3
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Seriously. That shit's criminal.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:11 AM   #4
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The US spends 15% of its GDP on healthcare and the UK spends 7% of its GDP on healthcare. And yet yours is so much worse. Empirical evidence! You can make up your own rhetoric to go with that.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:12 AM   #5
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It's not free and it's not a handout. Tax money pays for it. When you work, you pay taxes. If you don't work, guess what? You still pay taxes. No one escapes sales tax. No one escapes vehicle registration fees, the tax paid by companies which you buy stuff from, etc. Everyone in America pays some form of tax to the government. Unless you are living 'off grid' you are paying taxes.

So first you must show him no one is getting anything 'for free'.

People are getting back something they have paid into. This is like MANY government programmes.



See that chart? A study done a few months ago asked Americans have they ever received government assistance or funds. Over half of the people polled said no, even though they have.

Getting a tax deduction for your child? That's government assistance. Getting a deduction for the interest paid on your mortgage? Guess what, that's government assistance. The list goes on, but the reality is 80% of Americans currently get some form of money from the government.

Some people choose to focus on the welfare recipients, as they appear to be an easy target. It's a right-wing tactic which has always played well with middle and upper class. Labeling them as 'parasites' when the reality is percentage-wise the poor give MORE of the money they have to the government than the rich. That's a well documented fact.

That's also only in America. Every other first world country has tax bands and the more you have the more you pay. America is backwards as the more you have, the LESS you pay. They say 'oh well rich people give more'. Yeah they should, they HAVE more. It's backwards logic.

I mean, do you know how much millionaires and billionaires get back on their mortgage payments each year from the government? That amount dwarfs the amount paid out to welfare recipients in TOTAL, forget the 4% - 6% of fraud which is estimated to occur. If they cut of that tax loop hole, that GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE for the mega-wealthy that amount of money would dwarf the amount spent yearly on a long list of many other government programmes.

The question you really should be asking him is why is he focused on one small, miniscule expenditure which is going to people who in most cases truly need it and at the same time ignoring the fact the mega-wealthy are also getting government assistance on a level which makes welfare for the poor look pale in comparison WHEN THEY DO NOT NEED IT?

That's before you get into the disproportionate amount of tax paid by the POOR in comparison to the rich in America. Poor people pay more, get less. Rich people pay less, and get a shit-tonne more. But thats a whole different topic sure.
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:35 AM   #6
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Thanks, Sternn. In comparison, welfare is a nonsensical target. It cannot be argued that the countries poor truly do need help - he even conceded that, but the mega-wealthy? What? If anything, I'm just more angry that the elite can get away with that.
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn View Post

I mean, do you know how much millionaires and billionaires get back on their mortgage payments each year from the government? That amount dwarfs the amount paid out to welfare recipients in TOTAL, forget the 4% - 6% of fraud which is estimated to occur. If they cut of that tax loop hole, that GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE for the mega-wealthy that amount of money would dwarf the amount spent yearly on a long list of many other government programmes.

The question you really should be asking him is why is he focused on one small, miniscule expenditure which is going to people who in most cases truly need it and at the same time ignoring the fact the mega-wealthy are also getting government assistance on a level which makes welfare for the poor look pale in comparison WHEN THEY DO NOT NEED IT?

That's before you get into the disproportionate amount of tax paid by the POOR in comparison to the rich in America. Poor people pay more, get less. Rich people pay less, and get a shit-tonne more. But thats a whole different topic sure.
Not just in America do the rich pay less tax. Can't remember how many years ago it was now, but it made headlines. The richest man in Australia (kerry packer) paid $10.00 in tax.

In Australia we have medicare - it's basically free, taxpayers pay a percentage of their earnings in a medicare levy, but if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, I'd only have to pay for the ambulance ride to hospital and I'd get free hospital treatment, or I could chose to go private and pay a bucketload for the same treatment.

So what this guy is saying is that if you can't afford health insurance, then you should what? Just die? Harsh dude.

What if it was one of his loved ones who was in that situation?
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Versus View Post
I'm looking for a good argument for free healthcare. Can someone provide me a reference? There's a guy at work that compares government assistance to freeloading off hardworking Americans, and I want him to be wrong so bad. He's already conceded that the majority of people who receive it are in genuine need, but feels it's wrong because of this demon minority that is intent on taking handouts.

I told him that the system is wrong in the same way that he can't implicitly trust people to not try to harm him without carrying a gun, or to respect his valuables without leaving them secured, but he doesn't see the comparison.

Any ideas?
It's not necessarily proof but you could show him the WHO's report on countries health care. We're somewhere around the mid 30s with Cuba, a country we're economically strangling. Countries with social health care are much higher. I believe France is number one and England is around 18 but that may have changed. Either way we're not doing well.

The basic principle is this: Do we have good doctors? Yes, without doubt. Do we have the best equipment money can buy: Yes, especially where I live which is next to Seder Sinai. Can most people afford said well trained and well equipped doctors? No. There's little point in an A + doctor if only a small portion can afford it. Even if public access lowers quality (and I can't imagine why I would, the only industry that would be negatively impacted is the insurance companies. Doctors simply get money from the government instead of Blue Cross.) isn't a B+ doctor for all better than an A+ doctor for few?
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:37 PM   #9
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Healthcare is not a luxury.

Name ONE person who would rather spend their valuable time at a doctor's office or a dentist's office or at a clinic. Name ONE.

You know that whole supply and demand thing?

Yeah. If you have a healthy population, you have no real need for medicine save for emergencies.

Initially, demand may go up for medicine across the board from the start, but this will normalize once the population has basically taken care of their health issues. Not everyone is terminally ill and even if healthcare is free, it doesn't mean everyone is going to rank and file down the streets for care. They will STILL avoid going to the doctor because some people don't feel like they need to go unless they're bleeding out.

He's making a false equivalent to healthcare by assuming that it's a luxury. It's not. It's not like we're handing out Ferraris. We're helping people not be sick. If someone isn't sick, they don't have a reason to go to the doctor.

HIS healthcare is free. Why isn't he in the doc's office EVERY SINGLE DAY? Matter of fact, why isn't every single service member just not SIQ all damned day all the damned time?

Again. It's silly. Who in their right mind wants to go to the doctor?
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:45 PM   #10
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Rip off a million poor people and Wall street has no problems. " -Rebecca B
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Old 05-12-2012, 01:05 AM   #11
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Plus, doesn't it reflect poorly upon us as a culture to have the means to help people but refuse to do so unless we get something in return?
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Old 05-12-2012, 01:12 AM   #12
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There is also the moral aspect of the argument.

As if he has already admitted that many people do need assistance (in regards to welfare and medicare) and should be getting it, then you can pose this question to him.

The percentage of people who are thought to be scamming the system is between 4% - 6%. That means 95% or so of the people getting this money actually need it. What senses does it make to collectively punish 95% of law abiding citizens to stop 5% of those who abuse the system?

Should highways be shut down when 5% of motorists are caught speeding?

What does it say about a person who focuses more on punishing the small minority instead of helping the vast majority? Why is punishing 5% of the population more important to him that helping 95%?

See, it's the governments job to weed out the bad apples here, not the publics. Unless he has actual information to pass on to the police about fraud, it's not his concern. Going after that 5% or so is something best left to the professionals who do that as a full-time job, not some guy who has decided to hate on poor and disabled people because he thinks they are somehow getting a 'free ride'. I mean, if he really thinks living on welfare is so great, he should try it. Move in to the local housing projects and see how 'great' life is.

It amazes me that when you are talking about such a miniscule amount of people who get this type of assistance and then an even smaller amount who engage in fraud that people would spend anytime worrying about it when things like millionaire tax breaks, millionaire mortgage credits, and a long list of other perks the 1% get totally dwarfs any of the amounts which he is discussing, yet people like him overlook this and focus right on the less fortunate.

The mentality which this comes from is very disturbing. They would rather the less fortunate suffer than let one single person scam the system. Well, until it is them or their family who need assistance. See that's the other thing that is different in America. In Europe, Scandinavia, Australia, etc. social welfare is a fact of life for almost every citizen. When you lose your job you get the dole, which comes from the social welfare department. Disabled people are paid via social welfare. People out on short term illness get money from social welfare. All of this comes from the same department and much like a doctor at some point in your life if you live in one of these countries you will be on social welfare. Therefore there is no stigmata attached like there is in America. When you tell someone in the UK/Ireland/Germany/Poland/Australia that you are going to collect your welfare check no one bats an eye. It's a normal thing. Everyone at some point has collected some form of social welfare.

In America if you told someone that there is an immediate condemnation within many social circles and it conjures up some pretty bigoted thoughts for many people. The right-wing in America have worked hard for years to establish this mentality, and it's sad to see people still engage in this sort of discrimination based solely on bigoted, racist concepts dreamed up by bigots and racists in the 1960's in America.
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