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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 10-18-2004, 12:37 PM   #51
AlKilyu
 
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Oh and I almost forgot.

The U.N. is supposed to be in the world's best interest, right?

The U.S. should have their full backing always, correct?

Well as most of you know, Kofi Annan is the Secretary General of the U.N.

His son is Kojo Annan. Do a search for that name before you tie-in Chenney with Haliburton or say Bush went in for oil...

NEW YORK — The Justice Department criminal probe into the U.N. Oil-for-Food program is focusing on several individuals, among them U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan's son, FOX News has learned.

Kojo Annan, the secretary-general’s son, was employed by a U.N. contractor that monitored food and medicine shipments that were flowing into Iraq as part of the multibillion-dollar program created in late 1996.

The Oil-for-Food program is now being probed by the Justice Department and Congress as a boondoggle that enriched Saddam Hussein and others. A report delivered last week by Charles Duelfer found that Saddam was able to "subvert" the $60 billion U.N. Oil-for-Food program to generate an estimated $1.7 billion in revenue outside U.N. control from 1997-2003.



from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../06/woil06.xml
Despite pleas from Britain and the United States, members of the UN Security Council also allegedly turned a largely blind eye to evidence of rampant corruption within the scheme, which saw middlemen trading in "oil vouchers", that allowed oil sales outside the rules of the UN scheme.
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Old 10-18-2004, 04:11 PM   #52
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Loy,
I wasn't taking a stab at you or nothing. LOL. Sternn was just trying to make a point that you don't see Iraqis over here in the states at all, yet you mentioned here that you had talked with quite a number of them recently. S'all I was saying.
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Old 10-18-2004, 04:32 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptnSternn
As long ya you get your rent paid, your car insurance paid, and have enough money to fuck off to the mall and buy the latest pop album, most yanks give ashit less about real problems as they have none.
And this makes us different from the rest of the world...how?

Take nearly any country in the world not currently in civil war or complete chaos, and you can bet that 90% of them are like this -- as long as they have their needs met, and get what they like, they're okay, and they don't honestly give a shit about America's problems, or anyone else's. On top of that, they think their country is the very best and fuck-all who think otherwise.

For these people, they dislike the United States simply because the US exists. As long as the US exists, their country isn't the very best, or at least there is some shred of doubt in their mind.

The US has a lot of power. If there is a lot of collective fear in the world over the United States' current policies, it is because history has proven what happens when one country or group has a lot more power than others, and starts to use it in an erratic fashion. First they get defensive about it, muttering about 'we have to fix everyone else's problems' and then finally jailing or murdering those in their own country who oppose them, starting to invade to secure strategic interests 'for the good of the other people'.

This is not what is happening now, this is what has happened before. This is the history of the last three hundred years. What is happening in the White House, no one really honestly knows. What the US will be like in the next ten years or fifty years, it is hard to say.

But if the US is looking like it might go that way? Even if it is not? People, especially those who could be on the wrong end, have a fucking right to be scared and/or angry about it.

There should be a loyal opposition. The fact that such an opposition is and has been painted in my country as traitors and cowards is reprehensible. People should be scared we're going to turn into a dictatorship, and people should work to make sure it won't happen.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" - Thomas Jefferson

He wasn't talking about terrorists.
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Old 10-18-2004, 04:46 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlKilyu
Oh and I almost forgot.

The U.N. is supposed to be in the world's best interest, right?

The U.S. should have their full backing always, correct?

Well as most of you know, Kofi Annan is the Secretary General of the U.N.

His son is Kojo Annan. Do a search for that name before you tie-in Chenney with Haliburton or say Bush went in for oil...
Oh, and I almost forgot.

Can someone please define Straw Man for me?

Second off, the logic that is hinted in this post -- well, let me reason this out:

* The United States invaded a country without the approval of the United Nations.
* The United Nations has elements in it that are corrupt.
* Therefore, the United States can do whatever it wants.

or is it this?

* Dick Cheney has made money hand over fist with Haliburton, which has directly profited from the war.
* BUT... Kofi Annan's son has been with people who made money hand over fist with the disasterous oil-for-food program.
* Therefore, the United Nations sucks.

Let me just say, the logic of "they're bad, too!" didn't work when we were all five years old, and it doesn't work now.

The United Nations is supposed to be an assembly that keeps peace and world order, that allows all nations to have a say in world government, that helps protect the weakest, helps defend against famine, disease, and all the great ills besetting humanity.

Let's face it. The UN is a weak governing body that has since its inception been rendered powerless by the major governing bodies that created it: France, the United Kingdom, the United States, the Soviet Union (now Russia), and later China.

If any country has done the most to ensure that the UN is weak and corrupt, it is the United States. But they have had the most power over it, historically. I'm sure if China had the most power over it, I would be saying it's China.

But the ideals are there. And they should be upheld. The stakes of world war are far higher now than they were in the 1940's, and they were pretty high back then. To publicly walk away from it is a shame, a terrible shame, and it is a hint at something far worse.
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Old 10-18-2004, 07:59 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlKilyu
Right!

And for the Kerry/Edwards lovers (who live here and can choose them to be in office), you do know they are just as supportive of Isreal, right?
And for the record, I've been saying we need to vote for the Kerry camp, because they're far LESS corrupt than the Bush camp, and they are the only ones strong enough to win.

And once Kerry's in there, I'm switching to Green and working my ass hard to get someone even LESS corrupt than Kerry in there.

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Old 10-19-2004, 03:23 PM   #56
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Thanks Secret. You provided the only real cirurgical strike I've ever seen.
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Old 10-19-2004, 03:42 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretboy
If any country has done the most to ensure that the UN is weak and corrupt, it is the United States.
How do you come to that conclusion?
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Old 10-20-2004, 12:04 PM   #58
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Only in America..well americans on the internet anyway

:roll: The short and skinny about the world is really that nothing is ever the way we want it to be. :shock: I just wanted to say that I love the fact that people can express thier opinions so freely with anyone that is willing to listen. It's a beautiful thing, really. However skewed the words are that come out of thier mouths or fingers, as it were. You have to think about the important things when politics are concerned really. Not who promises what but what thier decisions to do affect others.

All of this wonderful idealism about what is right and wrong. It all boils to down to who is going to pay for the ideas. I personally don't like the fact that anyone is paying for Dubbya's vision of the way things should be wit thier lives. Personally, and I know this is going to sound arrogant, but I'll say it anyway, those whose blood is spilled for the cause should have the ultimate say in what the cause is. Not an elected king looking after his own financial interests.

Deep breath

Just thought I would say it whether or not it's appropriate. Despite the fact that you may disagree I still have the freedom to say it. That's something worth fighting for. Not Oil.

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Old 10-20-2004, 12:09 PM   #59
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Apropriateness is irrelevant,my dear.

The political threads are hear for debate!

If you feel strongly about something,by all means speak up!

:twisted:
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Old 10-20-2004, 12:19 PM   #60
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True True

The war is a sensitive subject for me. So when people talk about it in an overly objective way I get a bit sore. :oops:

The only thing I want to hear out of a candidates mouth at this moment in time is a concrete plan on how to bring the troops back home. Ensuring the safety of these people is the number priority for me. All of the international politics and everything takes a back seat to that.

:x squidgy face !!!

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Old 10-20-2004, 12:53 PM   #61
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I'd like to have em home too, kid, but messes always take longer to clean up than they do to make, so no matter what the candidates plan, its still going to be a long ugly process.
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Old 10-20-2004, 01:26 PM   #62
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Word

Word DeadHymn Word

Hipster Wyorm
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Old 10-21-2004, 10:04 PM   #63
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I wanted to give a face and a name to the 13 year old Palestinian girl shot by the Israeli Commander on 10/12.

Her name is Iyman al Hams.

Wearing her school uniform and carrying her book bag, Iyman and her two classmates took a route past the Zionist command post, the route they have taken many times before. Only about 400 meters from the school and relative safety, Israel Defense Forces, fearing that the 13-year old was carrying explosives in her book bag, fired warning shots in the air.


"When the soldiers fired in the air, the girl threw her bag and tried to flee," said H., a mechanic of Tel Sultan who witnessed the shooting. "The bullets hit the bag and then the girl." He said the child was about 50 meters from the Zionist military posts when the soldiers started shooting in the air. "She started running and the soldiers started firing hails of bullets at her. She was hit in the arm and fell on the ground, but they went on shooting," he said.

An Israeli commander shot her twice more as his subordinates yelled at him " No don't, it's a little girl! " The Israeli commander then walked up to her broken and dying body and emptied his clip into her. She was shot a total of FIFTEEN TIMES by this sorry souless piece of shit.

Two of the men under his command came forward and spoke out against his act:

“We saw her from a distance of 70 metres. She was fired at… from the outpost. She fled and was wounded. I understood that she was dead. The platoon commander neared her, shot two bullets at her, returned toward the force, turned back to her, put the weapon on automatic—and emptied his entire clip. He sprayed her. We were in shock. We held our heads. We couldn’t believe what he had done. Our hearts ached for her. Just a 13-year-old girl. How do you spray a girl from close range? He was hot for a long time to take out terrorists and shot the girl to relieve pressure.”

It took guts for these soldiers to come forward, although it appears the Israeli government is not going to punish the Commander for his actions. No big shock there.

One of the saddest things was how fucking hard I had to dig to get the FULL STORY on this.

I have to give a presentation for my Social Problems class tommorrow, and I thought Iymam deserved to be remembered. Another interesting fact was that NONE of the American newpapers, or on-line news media reported her name. She was just an anonymous little dead Palestinian girl in every article I read. It was only on Jewish news webpages that she finally had a name, and a face.

I give you, Iymam al Hams..

May she know peace and safety for time everlasting..
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Old 10-22-2004, 12:08 PM   #64
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And thats the model the US wants to use for the rest of the middle east, and to a lesser extent the 'plan' the bush regime has for the states themselves.

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Old 10-22-2004, 12:13 PM   #65
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Yep.

One person supposedly commits that act, and his peers turn him in, but that is the norm.

Bush is gonna model is foriegn policy after that one guy.

Yeah that makes sense.
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Old 10-23-2004, 04:37 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
And thats the model the US wants to use for the rest of the middle east, and to a lesser extent the 'plan' the bush regime has for the states themselves.

Slán
Way to friggin trivialize the loss of an innocent child's life..

Yeah gee, that was TOTALLY the point I was trying to make..

*Fucking Sigh*
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Old 10-23-2004, 05:05 PM   #67
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every nasty, horrible, inhuman act committed world-wide is obviously an offshoot and / or reflection of what bush has planned for us as well as the rest of the world. capt. sternn is EXACTLY right. didn't you all know that? ALL the conspiracy theories are true, true, true. i hear ya, brother. word up.

------------------------------

rest well, iyman.

- mark
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Old 10-25-2004, 07:13 AM   #68
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From a previous post on another topic:

1. Israel gets more funds from the US each year than any other country. Israel gets more aid than all of the continent of Africa (14 billion last year alone)

2. Israel has violated over 76 UN resolutions (Iraq proportedly violated 2).

3. Of the various resolutions passed against it, over a dozen have been about the killing of innocent children and bystanders with no penalty to the israeli troops (like you see above). Every one of these resolutions when put through the security council to force Israel to stop such actions and cease such behaviour were passed by all members, except one who blocked them - the united states.

4. Bush agreed to release the israelis from the 'roadmap to peace' just 2 months ago. This was after 2 american teenage student protesters were murdered by israeli forces. Bush personally absovled the israelis of responsibility in their deaths, even at the protest of the students parents, the UN, the EU, and half a dozen congressmen.

So tell me, why do you support a man who in all reality could give two shits less about this death? Glad to see it bothers you, but your supporting the man who helps keep these atrocities happening, and due to his legislation is helping to make them more of a common occurance.

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Old 10-25-2004, 07:53 AM   #69
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The PLO, just as the IRA, are a hateful group who revels in the killing of innocent women and children. I feel for the innocents caught in the middle, but why aren't you equally outraged when a car bomb goes off in a crowded marketplace killing men, women and children who aren't on the "front lines"? If you care for people, why aren't you incensed at the innocent blood shed of those going about their daily lives?

And again, if you listened, Kerry/Edwards made it very plain that they plan on supporting Isreal as well. Take a look at the transcript from the VP debates.
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Old 10-25-2004, 01:13 PM   #70
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No one revels in killing innocent women and children. But occupying forces are not innocent.

If your going to compare the IRA to the PLO, remember this:

1. The 1916 rebellion and subsequent bombing by the IRA led to the Republic of Ireland. The people here cherish the fact (as you can see in the attached photo). There are memorials around the country to praise the rebels for their work - many in public squares, government offices, and other public venues.

2. The IRA always give a 10 minute warning before any bombings. The brits stopped relaying them in efforts to kill more civilians and get the public outraged. It worked for a short period, until it was latered revealed that the brits were doing this. Also now the warnings are phoned into to the local media as well.

3. The british government under the GFA declared all IRA members legal combatants, dropped all pending chrages and released all republican prisoners from jail in '98 - after a very bloody bombing campaign.

So I ask, how many bodies does it take before israel sits down at the table?

Once again, the forefathers of the united states knew that a body count was needed before peace negotiations began. How many families of 'tories' were executed? Men, women, children - check your history books.

Slán
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Old 10-25-2004, 01:55 PM   #71
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Remember what happened last time you tried to compare the IRA to American Patriots?

Didn't work then either.

The IRA and PLO are animals plain and simple, and garner no sympathy from the civilized in their actions.
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Old 10-25-2004, 06:46 PM   #72
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Al-actually, Sternn does have a point about certain Mainland battallions butchering (no, I'm using the actual meaning of the term here, as in "taking a big fucking knife, and chopping up a living thing into tiny, tiny pieces) and slaughtering innocent civilians who didn't with them...including women and children, who, by the rules of engagement both sides were "following" were excluded from consideration as combatants. I remember reading about a group under Washingtons command that would lock families in their houses and set them ablaze, and stand outside with muskets ready if anybody tried to escape, and Washington knew about this. Here's what he did about this-diddly squat.

Say what you want, but I'm sure this action would fall under the term "war crime", which was how it was viewed even then (hell, we almost lost funding from France over the fracas, until Jefferson and Franklin smoothed things over).

Sternn-gonna have to agree with Al on this one-the IRA are nothing but a bunch of thugs that have been fucking things up for the Irish. And if you need any more proof-remember, it was the IRA that assasinated Michael Collins after he set up the treaty with England and gained a "independance in development", which would've had the entire Irish colony totally and completely free from Englands rule by the end of the century...until the IRA bombings steeled the British attitude of "it's ours, damnit!". While history has shown terrorism as a great tool for gaining independance in a few cases (Algiers is a big example here), and totally justifiable in cases where the Empire culture has so decimated the local culture and will that there's no other viable option, the IRA/Ireland thing is NOT one of these cases.
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Old 10-26-2004, 04:41 AM   #73
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Loy - as I sit here in an internet enabled pub here in the Repuiblic of Ireland, surrounded by Republican memorabilia, pictures of the fallen volunteers, and Up The RA posters - listening to the band sing 'Rifles of The IRA' (a grand song by Athenrye) I'm going to have to disagree with you.

How many of you have been here? Come here, ask yer average person on the street their feelings, and then try to explain why you as an outsider from across the sea who has never even visited here can justify your own feelings based on what you have seen on slanted american media.

If you wanna get some good tshirts, mugs, etc. that express how the people here feel, check this website.

http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com

Slán
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Old 10-26-2004, 09:10 AM   #74
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Sternn-FYI, my sons live over there now. And my attitude about the IRA comes from the "average man on the street"...from over there.

And since you're so up with the IRA, you probably know this already, but I'm gonna remind you anyways-there are some fairly large Irish communities over on this side of the water. Not Irish as in "oh, my grandpa was Irish, so now I'm Irish and have an excuse to be a drunken jackass", but Irish as in "born and raised". One of those lesser communities happens to be here in Seattle. You know which Micks come over here to Seattle (aside from the Naries and Boggies you guys tend to snort your noses at)? On-the run-IRA members who'd be executed the moment they started going by their real identities again. I've spent many a night (and many, many, MANY more dollars in alcohol upkeep) with them (mostly 'cause they were trying to see if I was good enough for a "Homeland" girl...and I was OK'd after they found out that I was also of a "Bitch Race"), and they struck me the same way all those sailors and soldiers I met growing up.....10% idealists, 20% desperate, 70% dim-witted psychopaths that needed to be removed from the genepool in order to save the evolutionary course.

But since (I'm guessing) nobody else has ever told you this, I will-there's a HUGE difference between being proud of your heritage (along with this pride comes a knowledge of your collective history, understanding what you've gone through culturally, etc) and cognative dissonance. Please learn to differentiate between the two.

PS-might I suggest taking a note from the Sinn Fein? At least they had the balls to grow the fuck up, take responsibility for their mistakes, and start being productive.
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Old 10-26-2004, 03:43 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Loy
But since (I'm guessing) nobody else has ever told you this, I will-there's a HUGE difference between being proud of your heritage (along with this pride comes a knowledge of your collective history, understanding what you've gone through culturally, etc) and cognative dissonance. Please learn to differentiate between the two.
Very good point, Loy....a point that doesn't only fit to Sternn's post, but many others, too.

Sternn...I've been to Ireland sometimes, and I love the country....but asking average people on the street about their feelings is by far not enough to get into any kind of something like history. It is a bonus, I agree, to know what single "average" people are thinking, but nothing more., really nothing more...


time to get some sleep
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