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Old 04-29-2010, 10:22 AM   #1
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Lightbulb Viewpoints on atheism and a supernatural being (and/or Beings, Aliens, and Santa)

Okay guys! There has been a lot of talk in the threads as of late, discussing personal beliefs, religions, and the like, so I wanted to bring up this topic in it's own thread, discussing exactly what each individual (yes you!) believes in detail. (although there are other threads, scattered amongst the grand abyss that is gnet, already covering this subject, I wanted to start a fresh one.)
Before I begin saying anything as far as my beliefs go...I want to make a few things clear...which is that I understand that everyone has very different views. This is all very obvious by all the arguing that occurs here on this forum, but I've started to actually like it. Reason being, because everytime I get a very blunt response, in contrast of something that I believe in.. it's because that other person has "just" as much passion in what they believe in as I do. We learn more about what we feel to be true, by arguing our points and researching on the topic, and I think this is great thing! (even though I'm sure some people are just plain assholes) But anywhoo. I just want everyone to know that even though some of you drive me insane and hate my opinions its okay, because I know that I'm annoying as fuck, at times too.

So with that aside...here we go.


I believe we have a creator, but I choose not to associate myself with any set name for my belief. I just don't want to have to be characterized, into a man-made term, applied to people who follow a 'religion'.
As much as I have studied on different 'religions', I do not follow any specific set of rules other than what my conscience has allowed me to accept as a universal right and wrong. This might be a bad thing, I don't really know. All I 'do' know is that I feel good, when I do good. Simple as that.

As far as Atheists go, I have the utmost respect for the ones who don't have the inclination to pounce on anyone who dismisses the theory of evolution. (I have even gone through a stage where I started to incline towards that mentality, but the more I studied on atheism, the more my mindset started shifting away from it.) In the past and now, I've seen many Atheists bashing anyone who believes in a higher power, force, or spiritual realm in a pretty aggressive manner, almost always associating a "Creator" with religion. ( and yes I agree that pompous, evangalist, morons are very much to blame, for this sad disposition. )

But this knowledge that I've gathered has been pretty enlightening (actually REALLY enlighting) to me. My whole search for truth in Atheism brought me to a point to where I just couldn't for the life of me agree with it. (just know that I don't want to be disrespectful in any sense.)

The first thing that I want to point out, is that in my quest for the truth... I discovered that Atheism seemed to have required as much of faith,( if not much, much, more) than any other way of believing. It was actually very difficult to cope with. I came to the conclusion that all atheists have what's called a 'universal negative'. A universal negative requires absolute knowledge (omniscience), whereas a universal positive may not require that.

I found this little metaphor, that helps me out in explaining this...

....Let's say that I am in a building with 4 rooms. I have only been in 1 room.

In order to say that every room is empty, I would have to have knowledge of all 4 rooms. I would need to know the entirety of what I am claiming to know.

However... to state the opposite, that the building is not empty, I would at the very least only need to know about one room....

So... in essence, any time an atheist claims that there is absolutely no Creator, they are claiming absolute and full knowledge of the universe (omniscience)... If they are not claiming absolute knowledge, than they are going off of "faith", but in fact, since they could never ,ever, ever, know for sure that universal negative... then they are requiring much more faith than a person who claims there is a creator (because finding out if there is one, may not require absolute knowledge).

Dictionary Definition of Faith.

"Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea. Formal usage of the word "faith" is usually reserved for concepts of religion, as in theology, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality, or else in a Supreme Being and said being's role in the order of transcendent, spiritual things."



Another idea that I ponder about, is about our fucking amazing universe. What is it? Is it necessary or just there?
I remember reading an article some time ago about the possibility of the universe being a "necessary being."

The late atheist scientist Carl Sagan... is famous for his declaration that the cosmos is "all that is, was, or ever will be."

The universe, were it a necessary being, would be infinite... That means completely eternal.....This, of course, brings up some serious math issues... cuz it would open the door, to a buttload of contradictions. Mathematician quote...."The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature, nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought."

The second challenge of an infinite universe, is that it throws shit at the face of the theory of evolution.... In fact, scientists who embrace the "Big Bang Theory" necessarily reject the idea of 'infinite', eternal existence for the universe. The same is true for those scientists who accept that the universe is expanding... These two ideas overlap, but are not really identical. They are in common though,with the idea that the universe had, at some point looooooooooooong ago, an origin. Atheists who fight for an eternal universe... are going against the flow of modern science and many will continue to fight, because to give up the effort... forces them to confront the unthinkable. "If the universe has an origin, it must have a cause." *bum bum bum* This brings me to idea that the big bang theory is quite a problem for atheists... But of course... some atheists plunge into the big bang theory like coocoo.
I've noticed that a favorite argument is... If God is uncaused, why can't the universe be uncaused too?
First, this response in itself creates a blob of problems. One thing is, an uncaused universe would logically have to be an infinite or eternal universe - bringing us back to the problems that I already mentioned... But if the universe is actually a contingent being, it defies logic and reason to say that an uncaused universe out of nowhere popped into existence. It sets up a contradiction.
ALSO.... they have to argue that the raw "universe" (in whatever its first form) is the source, cause, and daddy of the whole evolutionary process. It would be completely clown shoes to deny the current existence of living things - and these things had to come from somewhere or something. The first, initial universe... (whether it was simply particles, primitive organisms, or cosmic dirt) is the only answer an atheist can give. And this means that the primitive, baseline universe had to initiate a chain of events bringing about the universe we have today. . .Can an inanimate entity initiate anything? If it could, surely such an act would be considered oh say..."unnatural" ,or shall we say, supernatural?

There are some sceintists who argue that subatomic particles can be (theoretically) eternal and uncaused. Many atheists point to this theory as if it's a "conversation-ender". But what does this prove? That subatomic particles are the raw, daddy universe? If so, we're right back at the problem of initiation. Which leaves atheists on super shaky ground with in regards to the universe. They are forced to argue that the universe is an uncaused cause..... defense is clearly not a winnable strategy, so they attack. Their favorite approach: Casting aspersions on the notion of God or a Creator as the cause.

"If the universe needs a cause," they ask, "what about God?" Let's remember what a Necessary Being is, by definition. According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, necessary beings are "those that could not have failed to exist." A necessary being MUST exist in order for contingent beings to even be possible.... The issue isn't whether a necessary being exists, the issue is WHAT is the nature of that necessary being?

The inevitable conclusion to me, is that a creator is the only necessary being that makes sense..... If all contingent beings ultimately stem from the necessary being, then the necessary being is the external cause of the universe. In short, it must have all the characteristics of what we as humans normally associated with a God.

In my mind a supernatural being, responsible for the universe's existence may not have to fit any given religion. But it most certainly throws a bomb at atheism.


Sorry this is so long!!!!
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:54 AM   #2
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I'll keep it short and sweet.

I would like to say that I do not believe in anything. Unfortunately its not quite that simple, but almost.
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:58 AM   #3
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Jin, that was hilarious.

I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:01 AM   #4
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I agree to an extent of what you say. I also think the universe is finite and within that I think that the idea of infinity narrows the chances of a creator down to a certain number. However, the void of space may be indeed an infinite void and that idea does not bother me. The matter within this universe could very well be finite and ever expanding into this measureless void. I see nothing wrong with that concept and I will admit that I am no authority on it and my understanding of the universe and what it's capable of is limited at best. In a finite universe, a possibility of a creator can be measured.

However, I lean more towards a more human involvement with said creator. My thinking on it is if a creator were to exist, but the creator has been clearly shown to not intervene in this world, then what's the point in wasting your precious limited time in defining your life around an idea you can't be sure of. If a creator exists, it's probably not aware of you or even cares in the least about you. So why should you? From a moral standpoint, every god or deity that people have talked to me about have human flaws that I feel are absolutely deplorable on a scale that is indeed god-like. There is no benevolent creator.

I don't dwell anymore on the possibility of the existence of a god, it's not in my heart to give that much of a damn and if it has nothing to do with my human experience, then it's up to me to add meaning or value to an inconsequential life. I can't be bothered to have faith in a god, it serves no purpose to me in the least. However, religion HAS become a part of my human experience. It HAS drawn lines in the sand that I wish weren't there, but they are.

People say that goodness and evil have both come from religion and while religion has been the motivator of these deeds I see no reason to put the JESUS seal of approval of the goodness when we are just as capable of exercising that goodness of our own free will. But even a religious goodness is a passive aggressive kind where the underlying message is that there is something wrong with YOU and it's up to us to fix you.

If an involved creator was real, it would either have to be an artist or one sick son of a bitch. WHY would you want to be in league with that?

Go back and read up on all the tales of every deity ever dreamed up and what they are said to have done to humanity. If you find within yourself incapable of that amount of terror and violence then what does that say of you? What does that say of that creator? If you find that you are morally superior to a creator, then why waste your time on the idea of it being involved in your life?

The creation of the universe doesn't have to be done by intelligent design and all evidence so far points to the idea that it hasn't been. Ergo, you should logically deduce that there is no god.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:02 AM   #5
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Jin, that was hilarious.

I award you no points,

A sticker would suffice.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:14 AM   #6
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If you find within yourself incapable of that amount of terror and violence then what does that say of you? What does that say of that creator? If you find that you are morally superior to a creator, then why waste your time on the idea of it being involved in your life?
These are some very good questions that I haven't really given much thought about. Probably because my 'spiritual' experience has been on somewhat a more positive scale where I mostly just searched for enlightenment (but in all honesty I think it's more about the positive energy effecting me). But your question regarding if "i was a creator, would I have allowed such things to happen?" No I wouldn't, therefore I probably am in a sense, morally superior in regards to whoever created us. Very, very good question....
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:31 AM   #7
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Why do you need spiritual enlightenment? Does the concept of no supernatural experience bother you? Do you seek enlightenment because you've been told time and time again that being spiritual somehow makes you more human and that it's necessary? Do you look for enlightenment because somehow you think you should? Are these suggestions internal or are they quite possibly entirely external?

Why be spiritual just because you feel it's somehow expected of you? If you were in a world where things weren't explained in a spiritual sense, do you think you'd look for something such as a supernatural?

What if everything you claim as spiritual is quite simply another thing that can be measured and quantified scientifically? Why is it so important for certain things to be unknowable for you? Do you feel it takes away value from your human experience when all the things you've ever done and all the things you'll ever experience are nothing more than cause and effect or chemical reactions within your brain?

Sorry, way too many questions when the point I'm trying to make is that there are people out there who lead beautiful, wonderful lives without being in the least bit spiritual. If they can do it, why can't you?
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:33 AM   #8
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How the fuck do you still not understand that atheists don't "claim absolute and full knowledge of the universe"

If you fucking tell me there's a tiny teapot orbiting jupiter, and I tell you "that's a stupid thing to believe" I don't need to be omniscient to be right.
You're the one making a ridiculous assertion. YOU'RE the one that has to back it up.
LOGIC 101 MOTHERFUCKER: You can't disprove a negative. You don't need omniscience to say that you don't think I'm a three-legged zebra typing this through Bill Gates' personal Macbook. It's a fucking stupid thing to say and I would be the one that needs proof if I am going to defend such an assertion.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:34 AM   #9
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LOL!!! Alan, that was pretty fucking funny.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:36 AM   #10
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This is far and away a lot more responses than I thought this thread would generate. In fact, I didn't believe I'd have cause to visit it a second time.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:58 AM   #11
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to say that you don't think I'm a three-legged zebra typing this through Bill Gates' personal Macbook.
So THAT'S what you are!
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:58 AM   #12
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Why do you need spiritual enlightenment? Does the concept of no supernatural experience bother you? Do you seek enlightenment because you've been told time and time again that being spiritual somehow makes you more human and that it's necessary? Do you look for enlightenment because somehow you think you should? Are these suggestions internal or are they quite possibly entirely external?

Why be spiritual just because you feel it's somehow expected of you? If you were in a world where things weren't explained in a spiritual sense, do you think you'd look for something such as a supernatural?

What if everything you claim as spiritual is quite simply another thing that can be measured and quantified scientifically? Why is it so important for certain things to be unknowable for you? Do you feel it takes away value from your human experience when all the things you've ever done and all the things you'll ever experience are nothing more than cause and effect or chemical reactions within your brain?

Sorry, way too many questions when the point I'm trying to make is that there are people out there who lead beautiful, wonderful lives without being in the least bit spiritual. If they can do it, why can't you?
I guess my only answer would probably be... because it makes me "feel" good.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:02 PM   #13
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I bet white supremacists feel real cozy with their delusions of racial purity.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:05 PM   #14
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Sofar what I've learned in this thread is that some do not share the OPs views. Since that is already obvious to anyone who has been here more than five minutes, it has little value.

So. Are you all cowards? Exposing your own beliefs less comfortable than picking someone elses appart?
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:08 PM   #15
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I bet white supremacists feel real cozy with their delusions of racial purity.
What are you talking about?
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:09 PM   #16
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I'll keep it short and sweet.

I would like to say that I do not believe in anything. Unfortunately its not quite that simple, but almost.
Elaborate????
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:17 PM   #17
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I bet white supremacists feel real cozy with their delusions of racial purity.
It's been a point of interest to me that every white supremacist I've ever heard about believed in God. Not that this really has anything to do with anything.

And Vin, how were you able to edit and expand the title of this thread long after it had been posted?
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:21 PM   #18
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And Vin, how were you able to edit and expand the title of this thread long after it had been posted?
I didn't It was like that from the beginning.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:25 PM   #19
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Seriously? You mean the part about aliens and Santa was there all along?

I have got to get new eyeglasses.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:28 PM   #20
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The late atheist scientist Carl Sagan
He was awesome. But as far as I'm aware, he didn't identify as an atheist.

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This, of course, brings up some serious math issues... cuz it would open the door, to a buttload of contradictions.
Actually, infinity works pretty well in maths.

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"The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature, nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought."
Except in black holes (probably).

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In fact, scientists who embrace the "Big Bang Theory" necessarily reject the idea of 'infinite', eternal existence for the universe. The same is true for those scientists who accept that the universe is expanding
This isn't true if you're talking size, nobody knows the true size.

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These two ideas overlap, but are not really identical. They are in common though,with the idea that the universe had, at some point looooooooooooong ago, an origin.
Expansion is observable. Several theories were proposed to explain it, one was the Big Bang. Another theory proposed an infinite (in time) universe, so that wouldn't have an origin. So pretty much all of that is wrong. The Big Bang fits best with evidence.



Science doesn't give evidence for or against a creator. The very beginning of the universe is currently thought (with good reason) to be unknowable.

From that I get to the same point as Alan.


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the point I'm trying to make is that there are people out there who lead beautiful, wonderful lives without being in the least bit spiritual
"I have not yet lost a feeling of wonder, and of delight, that this delicate motion should reside in all the things around us, revealing itself only to him who looks for it... To see the world for a moment as something rich and strange is the private reward of many a discovery."

I know you didn't mean mean science in particular, but that's one of my favourite quotes. There's enough beauty in the world without needing to believe in more.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:31 PM   #21
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Elaborate????
Well, my current assumptions on How Things Work are influenced by a number of thinkers, but to get a working grip on the general perspective I suggest you read "Prometheus Rising" and "Quantum Psychology" by R A Wilson.

Mr Wilson once said "I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions.". Seems well put to me.

No, there really isn't a way for me to sum it all up in any way that is meaningful.

I will however gladly entertain you with a couple of additional quotes:

""Mind" is a tool invented by the universe to see itself; but it can never see all of itself, for much the same reason that you can’t see your own back (without mirrors)."

"The Western World has been brainwashed by Aristotle for the last 2,500 years. The unconscious, not quite articulate, belief of most Occidentals is that there is one map which adequately represents reality. By sheer good luck, every Occidental thinks he or she has the map that fits. Guerrilla ontology, to me, involves shaking up that certainty. I use what in modern physics is called the "multi-model" approach, which is the idea that there is more than one model to cover a given set of facts. As I've said, novel writing involves learning to think like other people. My novels are written so as to force the reader to see things through different reality grids rather than through a single grid. It's important to abolish the unconscious dogmatism that makes people think their way of looking at reality is the only sane way of viewing the world. My goal is to try to get people into a state of generalized agnosticism, not agnosticism about God alone, but agnosticism about everything. If one can only see things according to one's own belief system, one is destined to become virtually deaf, dumb, and blind. It's only possible to see people when one is able to see the world as others see it. That's what guerrilla ontology is — breaking down this one-model view and giving people a multi-model perspective."

And one that I really like

"I used to be an atheist, until I realized I had nothing to shout during blowjobs. "Oh Random Chance! Oh Random Chance!" just doesn't cut it…."
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:33 PM   #22
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Seriously? You mean the part about aliens and Santa was there all along?

I have got to get new eyeglasses.

Lol yep, there from the beginning.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:34 PM   #23
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"I have not yet lost a feeling of wonder, and of delight, that this delicate motion should reside in all the things around us, revealing itself only to him who looks for it... To see the world for a moment as something rich and strange is the private reward of many a discovery."

Beautiful quote....btw where you been?
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:38 PM   #24
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I guess my only answer would probably be... because it makes me "feel" good.
But if you're searching for truth, you can't stop at what makes you feel good. It's disingenuous and a lie. Stopping at what's comfortable isn't exactly spiritual enlightenment, it's establishing a comfort zone at best and admitting that you actually are afraid of the truth at worst. In the most dire of times, your "feel good" spirituality will not console you.

I hate to go in this direction, but there are people out there who get their entire families blown to bits right in front of them in wars and other atrocities. Where's your "feel good" spirituality then?

And I really didn't mean to turn into a dick about this, but in short, you don't have any spirituality that holds any credibility. Stop being a spiritual coward and accept that there is no evidence supporting your assumptions that give you personal consolation. It's bloody selfish.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:48 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by KontanKarite View Post

And I really didn't mean to turn into a dick about this, but in short, you don't have any spirituality that holds any credibility. Stop being a spiritual coward and accept that there is no evidence supporting your assumptions that give you personal consolation. It's bloody selfish.
Nah I don't think you're being a dick. It just seems like you have a lot of resentment. I don't think I'm being selfish at all in thinking that there is some 'type' of spiritual energy mingling amongst us humans. Yes there are very bad people, horrible disasters and tragedy...shit always happens, people always die, arms get cut off, and children lose they're parents. But there is so much good as well. I honestly feel like we are all connected in some form or another that I can't explain. I mean take our emotions for example...the way you feel when you fall in love...fear...jealousy. I might be a coward for not knowing what my exact stance on these sentiments are, but I do understand your dislike of it.
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