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Old 06-18-2006, 02:16 PM   #51
Godslayer Jillian
 
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And are we not?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 06-18-2006, 06:48 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
And are we not?

Absolutely, but Im sure the Beat generation were called weirdos and junkies too. Guess that goes with any counterculture.
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Old 06-19-2006, 07:05 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
And are we not?

That made me chuckle.
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:28 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circle V
Goths are often interested in (or obsessed with, depending on who you ask) with death, decay, darkness, and other things that are considered 'bad' by most people (and probably by most Goths, though in a slightly different way.) It's no wonder that we're shunned, and I'm not quite sure why it's that important-- it seems to me that most Goths were misfits long before they entered the fold, and will remain misfits even were they to 'leave' the subculture.

On a related note, I got "Can you do magic?" from a kid the other day.

I haven't read anything on this thread save for this quote that I have here, although I am assuming that I know what the debate is about anway.

First of all, forgive me for jumping in, but I believe that I have something to add. Secondly, my opinion. I believe that most people are not against Goths, or anything like that. Instead, they are against the stereotype.

You see, most of the people out there believe that a Goth is a suicidal, hiomicidal, black-clad, theatrically depressed teenager that is into the occult and heavy-metal. Most think that eveyone dressed in black and such are going to do atrocious things such as grotesque vampiric murders or school-shootings. This is what people are against, and I do not blame them for that.

Now I will tie this in with that quote: Goth, as I see it, isn't about Death, darkness, sadness, suicide, black etc. (Although some artists and Goths have leaned in that direction.) Goth was about intelligence, dignity, insight and beauty. It was not complaining about how everything is bad and how there is so much pain and suffering in the world. It was about the sadness that a soul can feel, the beauty of that sadness, and what that sadness can produce if properly cultivated. It was about seeing beauty in places where some would feel repulsed or scared. Also, the boots, bondage pants, capes and dark makeup was just extra stuff. I believe that too many people believe that Goth is just about "death, darkness, and sadness." Now, I am not presuming that you are one of these people, sir, but I am simply trying to set things right.
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:33 PM   #55
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I concur with you, except that goth does have large amounts of "darkness".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:38 PM   #56
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Yes, and I believe that I should have written that alot better. I did hint that "it has leaned in that direction" but I do indeed agree that Goth is indeed a dark subculture.
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:39 PM   #57
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P.S. Are you stalking me ma'am?
*raises goblet*

Cheers.
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:46 PM   #58
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Mu.

Yup, that'd be my answer, but now let's give you some practical answers.
No, I'm not a ma'am, no matter how feminine I am.
And I'm not stalking, I just check out the threads where someone other than me has last posted.


Heh.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.

I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:51 PM   #59
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Goodness! My mistake. I did not take the time to ascertain the truth of your gender. My apologies.

The stalking thing was a joke. I finally found some time to post on this site and I am happy that I am getting feedback being a nooB and all...
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:54 PM   #60
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It's ok, I like the mistery of my gender.
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"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.

I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:13 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
It's ok, I like the mistery of my gender.
Pun intended?
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:25 PM   #62
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I have to confess I've never known what a pun is.
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"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.

I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 06-21-2006, 08:43 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
I have to confess I've never known what a pun is.
It's a joke with words. Also called Witz.

When you mis-spell or mis-pronounce a word to make a bad joke.
ie: in a comic, a girl smash a snake with a club.
then she smashed her boyfriend for reason we don't care about.
The snake say to the almost dead guy : Welcome to the club.
Everybody laugh, this is a pun.
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Old 06-26-2006, 05:02 AM   #64
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People fear those who are different because they are insecure. Everybody has a particular comfort zone. This comfort zone is a set of actions that provides for a person's needs, and makes the person feel like they are in control. People who are different scare us because difference may mean change, and change makes us lose control, makes us unsure of where we belong and where we are going. Change means that we may lose our means of securing what we want for ourselves. It is like the cancellation - the death - of our world as we know it. In reality it isn't nearly this dramatic, but we *think* it is, and that's all that matters.

Goths also may scare people because of the outward image some Goths uphold. Things like skulls, the colour black, coffins, etc. remind the people around them of death with a capital "D", and Death really does mean the loss of everything. Death is the ultimate uncertainty; nobody knows what it's really like and obviously those who have experienced it in full can't enlighten us (usually, but that's a different subject).
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Old 06-27-2006, 08:17 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merivelles
First off, forgive me if this topic has already been discussed somewhere else, I didn't see anything that was too specific so I'm doing this.

As many of us know and have experienced, there are a lot of things (hazings, put downs, etc) that the gothic people encounter during their lives. I'm actually doing a research paper on the things that have gone on that should be looked into. Unlike every other subculture in america, the gothic culture has been shunned and put aside because of the different way to see how life is; Anything from being called a "devil worshiper" to having someone ask you if you're going to bomb or shoot up a highschool; like it or not, we've all experienced it to a degree. But why is this so?

Today in class, I discussed my research. Several people in my class had a lot of significant things to say. One of them (an interior design major aka the "prep" of this school) said that she didn't quiet understand what a gothi was but she didn't see the need to be so discriminating towards them. She said she'd actually like to get to know someone who was goth, just so she could see the other side of the "light" that is what the American society tries so hard to sell and I comend her greatly for being so open...Unlike many of the other students in the class that give me strange looks when I walk into class every Thursday.

I came across several problems during my research.Things such as "posuer" sites that post directions to becoming "goth" (gawth), hate sites, automatic links to self injury sites, sites about the Colombine shootings, and combating the "Evil Satanic" gothic culture. I actually found a site that was from the Eastern part of the US that was spending $273,000 so that they could have the police arrest anyone who was dressed "goth" because they didn't want any shootings or hostility. If you ask me, this is the new aged Salem Witch Trials. What, and why, would bring people to be so hostile towards those people in the American society that merely think and see things differently?

Having brought all of this up, I wish to know others opinions on such matters and if any of you have any suggestions for my paper, be more than welcome to share them with me. I'm willing to hear either side of the topic, but please don't be rude about it, I'm merely doing research. Your opinions, and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Most people i know who critise me for being a Goth or take the mickey don't know anything about it. Maybe they're afraid of what they don't know so they figure the easiest why to confront this is to laugh.
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Old 07-29-2006, 07:11 PM   #66
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Prejudices is sadly all over the world today. People will just find others different from themselve no matter how slightly and just pick at it these days.
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:21 PM   #67
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In general, but not always, people are just jealous. Most gothics are very attractive. They can get away with a lot of things other people can't.

There is also a culture people don't understand. Some people worry so much about everything, but Goths don't. You got old. Who cares? You maybe don't look right. Who cares? Goths have a very high threshold of compassion.

Actually, thinking about it, there was a situation awhile back, where in some people were stalking me. Think some of them even hungout around Goths and liked to think themselves gothic. I ranted and got help. Should send a nice message to people that I know where around. If anyone knows about getting stalked it's a Goth.

There is something mysterious. Of course, getting to know people better, it is just the thrill of exhibitionism, not always sexual. Just being out there doing something. However, all Goths are different, not defined by class, wealth, or anything else.

People could learn alot from Goths. Though seeming apathetic, there is a lot more compassion, because well at least I know, not everyone has to play the game the same way to win.

Another thing bothering me is that someone I know was actually spitefully making statements like, "You're hotter than me." and "Better not go back to the club or some red-kneck, hick statement like beat me up or something." It was really lame. So I didn't see her there. I didn't see the person I came with twice and he was standing in the room.

WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME?
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Old 07-29-2006, 08:39 PM   #68
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Yeah I hate it when people so that... my two friends and I had went to the mall today and people kept on staring at us and we aren't at all hardcore like some other goths that I know. Though sometimes it can be fun to scare people at times like this it is annoying. >_<
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Old 07-30-2006, 04:59 AM   #69
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Haha...The other day I was at the mall with my girlfriend and some little kid came up about 5 or 6 times asking if we were going to hurt his family or if we were goth so I got fed up with it and in the middle of his sentence I was like "AHH MOTHERFUCKER GET OUT OF MY FACE!" and if you saw it me say it you'd crack up...then he started crying...haha.

I never laugh at kids crying unless its a funny situation, such as this one.
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Old 08-18-2006, 11:34 AM   #70
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Well, I feel that the reason we are discriminated against is because people don't understand us. They don't understand that we are still people, we are just different. I get the whole 'halloween is --- months away' stuff, and the whole 'are you depressed?' The list goes on. Frankly, it is annoying, and it does piss me off, but I've learned to ignore it, since it's just stuff that came with the package, if you will.
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Old 08-18-2006, 11:42 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Mu.

Yup, that'd be my answer, but now let's give you some practical answers.
No, I'm not a ma'am, no matter how feminine I am.
And I'm not stalking, I just check out the threads where someone other than me has last posted.


Heh.
I hear you, I've been called ma'am in real life a few times. I mean, I don't look feminine or anything, I just don't act like a 'guy' Guys here are typically jocks and stuff. Quite unintelligent, too. It is quite sad, really. While I am fairly intelligent, not bragging, I know where I really stand intelligence-wise. And, I just show a lot of compassion and empathy for people, but they definitely have to deserve it.
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Old 08-18-2006, 12:42 PM   #72
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Visual discrimination is something that we are taught from a very young age. In western culture, we rely more heavily on our sense of sight than any other. I remember that, growing up in my house, any given object was always described with two adjectives, both of which were visual. As in, "Please fetch me the little yellow stool."

That's one aspect, I think.

Another (and it's been hinted at already but I'm stuck on this and now so are you) is that the majority of people drawn to the Gothic culture are generally non-conformists to begin with. Most of the people I know in the culture, and myself included, were totally ostracized socially during their school years. When I started dressing according to how I felt versus what was more socially acceptable (read: much more black), it was actually a relief to be targeted for abuse due to something so incredibly specific, and something that was of my own choosing. I still feel that way, and I still passionately hate being picked on.

There are lots of reasons why a group of humans will single one of their members out for discrimination. You can blame it on astrological and psychological influences, energetic influences, background factors (such as whether the person is also a victim of other, more severe forms of abuse), and natural selection. I think that for some of us there is a point of no return, where we either choose not to adapt so as to avoid ridicule, or realize that there's no way in hell that we CAN change ourselves enough to fit in and be left alone.

Which brings me to the point I'm trying to make here, and that is that from what I've seen the Gothic culture is largely made up of people who just don't, or can't, fit. Maybe that's why, on a grand scale, we are so targeted.

As to why we don't fit, have you read Brave New World? I think that industrialization has A LOT to do with it, especially with the cultural trend to view death as something other than what it actually is.

Great idea for a paper, by the way. Let us know how it's received.
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Old 08-18-2006, 04:17 PM   #73
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Meh, seriously, we made the choice of looking goth, and with that came along some sort of social persecution.
Many people whine about how they can't leave us alone (even The Cruxshadows has a specific song called "Leave me Alone") and at the same time they say goth isn't a look, it's a life-style.
I concur that it's a lifestyle, but if they say they don't have to look gothic, why keep doing it if it seems they care a little bit too much about what others think about us?
I believe the life-style has much to do with the style, and if someone doesn't like it, I laugh.
And, can we blame if people see gothic in a negative way? Black IS often related with evil, many of our clothes look like are multi-use weapons, and guess what kind of people denominate themselves as goths?
If we have to be mad at someone, is at the ones that stain the name Goth.
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I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 08-18-2006, 07:08 PM   #74
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Oh well.
We dress in black.
We listen to certain music.
We believe in certain things.
Who the fuck cares if people like us or not???
All groups are discriminated.
I could care less what people thought of me.
As long as I am happy being me.
If you don't like people giving you shit,
then,
DON'T BE GOTH!!!!!
Plain and simple.
Or learn to deal, because we're gonna get discriminated no matter what.
It's not just gonna magically stop.
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Old 08-20-2006, 11:15 AM   #75
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re: the thread within this thread about "all people created equal, etc."

I think what that phrase means is that we are all CREATED equal, what we BECOME is up to us. Or not. Maybe it is up to chance and circumstance, but although we are by no means physically equal to another human being in terms of strength, power or beauty, we cannot say that the value or total worth of say, a homeless mentally ill alcoholic is less than the value of a CEO of a billion dolloar corporation. Our society places value on what those people have become in their lives, not their actual worth as a sentient being of earth. So in a sense we ARE all equal.
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