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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 05-07-2012, 11:06 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleyO View Post
This was one guy's reply:

"There has been ONE case of **** by an Occupier against another Occupier. All the other cases did not involve Occupiers as the rapist, and some even involved Occupiers as the victims! Claiming Occupy is racist is the most ridiculous claim ever, there are anti-racist (along with anti LGBT discrimination, and feminist) working groups in nearly every Occupation. Not to mention that there are far more African-American Occupiers than there are African-American participants in that other movement. "
While we shouldn't look away from problems in our movement, as the revolution cannot be won without defeating capitalism, and capitalism cannot be defeated without defeating racism, sexism, etc. It's important to remember that the anti-revolutionaries, especially the establishment left, are in control of the greatest propaganda machine the world has ever seen.

The media knows exactly how to sell us reforms masked as revolution, or in the case of the Obama presidency, the same old shit masked as serious reform.

On the flipside, they also know percisely how to fracture the revolution. It's no coincidence that at the beginning of this thread Occupy was referred to as a bunch of "Ron Paul Wankers" and then later on a REAL Ron Paul wanker came in and denounced occupy as a bunch of danergerous leftist anarchists.

Whatever the type of media you consume (whether directly, or by proxy) the story is clear: the Occupy movement are a bunch of shitheads. However, the exact TYPE of shithead that Occupy is, is unclear, and in fact in direct contrast to the opposition's brand of shithead.

Before Occupy, I used to think that when the papers agreed on something, it was a sign that there was some truth in it, now it's pretty much obvious that when the NYtimes and Foxnews agree is when the greatest amount of media shenanagins is going on.

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However, this is an interesting thing, right? The media is painting this out to be a bunch of white privileged hipster kids. If they're targeting YOU as a white male, acknowledge their complaints, identify your privilege that they're accusing you of abusing and then don't use your privilege as a weapon for anything. The media is focusing on the whites in the group right now because they're using the idea that white privilege deserves no sympathy and they'd be right about that. So the object of the game is to recognize our privilege be it white privilege, male privilege, religious privilege, straight privilege, able-bodied privilege, ect and by being aware, be able to keep it in check and then they wont have anything to go on.
No, they'll still have stuff to go on, because no matter what you do, as it has been pointed out in this thread racism and sexism are charges which are proven by the accusation alone.

One does not have to intend offense for a statement or action to be racist, so intent is not part of the equation.

One cannot point to behaviors inconsistent with racism and/or sexism in order to disprove the claim, as these behaviors can always be dismissed as tokenism. One cannot fall back on the statements of notable members of minority groups for the same reason. Thus it is a charge which cannot be answered with facts.

One cannot assail the accusation itself because this can always be dismissed as victim blaming.

One cannot declare solidarity/commonality with the members of the discriminated against class/race/gender/gender idenitity which are ouside of one's own, as this can be dismissed as ignorance of one's own priviledge.

The fact is, the type of racism the mainstream media chooses to focus on is of the thought-crime variety of racism. Not the actual actions themselves, but the immaterial.

Instead of focusing on the action of bringing a PRoC flag to the Danny Cheng March (btw: I figured out who that guy is. He's a nut who shows up at nearly every Occupy event, and ALWAYS has a PRoC flag. He's not really an integral part of Occupy, just an old communist who's finally got an excuse to stand around and wave it.) and figuring out how to avoid such things in the future, the conversation is shut down.

Suddenly, because of a few people's actions the entire Occupy Movement is guilty of a thought-crime for which there is no defense.

Our society IS racist. Our society IS sexist. Our society IS classist. As Occupy is a microcosm of our society these things are prevalent and must be addressed. Occupy is really the perfect forum with which to do so, by virtue of it's structure and lateral culture.

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I'm not an outright accuser. But the accusations that they're making against Occupy such as this is simple. These are things we should AVOID AT ALL COST AT BEING. Therefore, take the critiques as constructive criticism and amend your behavior where the critiques may be relevant.

Take their accusations and use them as examples on what NOT to be. Perhaps YOU do not do this. Perhaps you're not aware of the privileges you have.

We must understand our cultural and social privileges AS WELL as the economic inequality of capitalism or else we can be more easily demonized.
"
I agree with this 100% in theory, but the problem is, this is altogether impossible in practice. We can hold teach ins, we can have discussions, we can have anti-racism anti-colonial policy, it doesn't matter Capitalism causes social alienation, and that alienation will crop up in our movement, and the media will exploit it - end of story. People have been raised on this stuff and are only now rejecting the conditioning. Racism and sexism within the movement need to be combatted, but that cannot happen if communication is shut down.

What we have going on right now is the Angel Fallacy, the idea that Occupiers (or anyone who speaks out against injustice) must be a saint in order to be listened to. This is why I linked the Halo Effect earlier, because it works in reverse - anti-revolutionary elements will ALWAYS exploit this, as they exploited it with Martin Luther King, and even though the accusations were true (MLK was a philanderer) they did not invalidate his message.

Similarly, the Black Panthers had alot of problems with overbearing male dominance within their ranks, but the Black Panther movement itself was not a sexist movement.

TL;DR - We need to focus on racist ACTION as opposed to racist IDENTITY. The former is empirical and can be dealt with constructively, the latter is thought-crime and will only lead to greater aleination.

And not with the intent to engage in tokenism, but to point to these as examples of hope for good things to come I'll leave you guys with these:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...6483395&type=1

https://www.facebook.com/events/175078435948082/

http://www.meetup.com/Radical-Femini...ents/61768802/

And, from the Global Marijuana March saturday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KypLOu-93s8

In an unrelated note, Redman also performed, which was AWESOME:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b14dgdKsrbQ
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:48 AM   #202
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:54 AM   #203
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care to elaborate on that Versus?

I'd like to know where I've made errors.
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Old 05-07-2012, 12:13 PM   #204
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Nope. I don't see the point. I don't think you want to know where you've made errors because I get the impression you want me to articulate something that is easier for you to argue with.
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Old 05-07-2012, 12:42 PM   #205
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Nope. I don't see the point. I don't think you want to know where you've made errors because I get the impression you want me to articulate something that is easier for you to argue with.
I am argumentative, I'll give you that.

However, I am not arguing in bad faith. You've actually been really rational about this so I would like to hear from you and I am open to learning.

Tell you what? I promise not to respond, or of you'd rather I respond, Inpromisnto turn off "Despanan" for the rest of the conversation.
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:34 PM   #206
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Honestly, I feel like there is this wall in your head that is keeping me from getting through and it's fucking exhausting.

You can read this thread real quick, but Saya says it pretty well:

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I love it when white people tell people of colour what is an appropriate response to oppression.

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Old 05-07-2012, 01:40 PM   #207
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Okay, I see.

I apologize for speaking out of turn then, I've never been good at keeping my thoughts to myself. Did not mean for it to come off like I was instructing you on how to deal with oppression.

I ALSO did not mean to come off in a blasie manner. It's not as big of an issue for me (Because I'm priviledged) but that doesn't mean that I'm not concerned about it.

More or less I'm just trying to find the most constructive way forward.
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:52 PM   #208
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It is simple: don't be dismissive and listen when someone says they feel oppressed by something.

Actually you know what, do a little exercise and list all of the ways that you experience your privilege on a daily basis. Make the list as exhaustive as you can.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:15 PM   #209
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Okay, I see.

I apologize for speaking out of turn then, I've never been good at keeping my thoughts to myself. Did not mean for it to come off like I was instructing you on how to deal with oppression.

I ALSO did not mean to come off in a blasie manner. It's not as big of an issue for me (Because I'm priviledged) but that doesn't mean that I'm not concerned about it.

More or less I'm just trying to find the most constructive way forward.
You're not speaking out of turn because I was responding to something you said to someone else. I mentioned it because it is not your place decide what to do about it. Your thought process is completely different. In this instance, you're thinking about this the wrong way.

You're asking "How can Occupy look less oppressive?"

When you should be asking "How can Occupy BE less oppressive?"

But Saya and Solumina already told you, as I shared my thoughts with AshleyO.

As you might gather from the link that I posted, my objection to your post is that I do not feel there are different types or variations of racism. A common problem when confronting people about their own privilege is that they believe racism is exclusively when you're actually discriminating PoC. They do not recognize themselves as perpetuating racism because they do not recognize that racism is often very subtle and unintentional. To think that the overt actions should be prioritized is to think that they are somehow more harmful then other manifestations.

In FistsOfFury's case, he said that talk is idle racism and anything that doesn't amount to physical violence is harmless.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:29 PM   #210
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Thank you for answering me more in-depth.

Quote:
I mentioned it because it is not your place decide what to do about it.
I'll give you this one. I just find it very hard not to talk about things that I consider important, and this is something which is VERY important to me, though clearly not as important as it is to you. I'd perfer it if you or someone like you would show up at occupy and make the descision for me. From what I know, there are people already on this, but once again I don't want to sit by if I can help in some way.

Also, unfortunately, I as a person, am not good at knowing my place. I've never been good at it, and I actually have a problem with the idea that people have "places".

Does this make me a dick? Sometimes, but I do have a distinct problem with the idea that certain people can't talk about certain things - that communication can't happen, and that there are things beyond my ken.

It's probably priviledge talking, so all I can say is I'll try to keep it in line out of respect and decorum.

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You're asking "How can Occupy look less oppressive?"

When you should be asking "How can Occupy BE less oppressive?"
But that's not what I'm thinking. I'm confused with how you got that.

I'm concerned with how occupy LOOKS because the media is doing it's damndest to make it LOOK more oppressive than it is, specifically so people like you won't give it a chance.

But once again, if this is just window-dressing this won't solve the problem, this would actually doom occupy to be a reform movement. We need more minorities involved, period. If we were able to better bridge that gap we might actually have a shot at changing something fundamental.

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As you might gather from the link that I posted, my objection to your post is that I do not feel there are different types or variations of racism. A common problem when confronting people about their own privilege is that they believe racism is exclusively when you're actually discriminating PoC. They do not recognize themselves as perpetuating racism because they do not recognize that racism is often very subtle and unintentional. To think that the overt actions should be prioritized is to think that they are somehow more harmful then other manifestations.
I agree.


Quote:
In FistsOfFury's case, he said that talk is idle racism and anything that doesn't amount to physical violence is harmless.
Yes, that's because he's stupid.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:33 PM   #211
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Actually you know what, do a little exercise and list all of the ways that you experience your privilege on a daily basis. Make the list as exhaustive as you can.
When I raise my voice, other people recognize my anger instead of dismissing me as hysterical or uppity.

When I speak, other people are willing to accept that I am speaking from a point of logic instead of one from emotion.

When I am faced with something physically challenging, other people take it at face value as something genuinely challenging instead of assuming that I am weak.

When I do something with my phone while driving, other people will forgive me instead of ostracizing my irresponsibility.

When I give my word of commitment, other people trust me instead of wondering if children will cause me to break that commitment.

When I do not pay attention to my appearance before I leave the house, other people will value me the same instead of thinking less of me.

It's really weird. When I make it personal, it means more then when I think "women have to deal with this or that."
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:42 PM   #212
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Dude, if I start making a list we're going to be here all night.

Point taken though, I think this is a good excercise and an important thing for people to do, so I'll probably write one up later.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:43 PM   #213
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Despanan. DO you ever just get super fuckin' pissed when religious people insist that YOU'RE mistaken when you start talking about how non-believers are treated and thought of in society?

Ever notice how infuriating it is when you have to have a conversation with a "moderate" Christian because they can't realize how their inaction actually perpetuates the very deformity of their faith?

Ever lose your shit when they accuse you of being super militant and that they employ false equivocation on you by saying you're as bad as the fundamental as if society is beyond the discussion of secularism and non-belief?

Fuck. I know I'm about to slap a mother fucker when I have to deal with people like that.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:46 PM   #214
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Despanan. DO you ever just get super fuckin' pissed when religious people insist that YOU'RE mistaken when you start talking about how non-believers are treated and thought of in society?

Ever notice how infuriating it is when you have to have a conversation with a "moderate" Christian because they can't realize how their inaction actually perpetuates the very deformity of their faith?

Ever lose your shit when they accuse you of being super militant and that they employ false equivocation on you by saying you're as bad as the fundamental as if society is beyond the discussion of secularism and non-belief?

Fuck. I know I'm about to slap a mother fucker when I have to deal with people like that.
Yeah, I know what that's like.

That's how I ended up bitchslapping Corpsey off facebook. He said atheists posting on Facebook was the same as racism sexism and homophobia.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:49 PM   #215
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Yeah. I can only imagine that it's probably about 10 times worse for people of color when it comes to talking about racism and frankly, talking about non-belief for me is me going to the end of my rope. Frankly, I don't know how Versus and Saya's not just going out beating the tee total hell out of people for even an ounce of racism or sexism.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:54 PM   #216
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I'll give you this one. I just find it very hard not to talk about things that I consider important, and this is something which is VERY important to me, though clearly not as important as it is to you. I'd perfer it if you or someone like you would show up at occupy and make the descision for me. From what I know, there are people already on this, but once again I don't want to sit by if I can help in some way.

Also, unfortunately, I as a person, am not good at knowing my place. I've never been good at it, and I actually have a problem with the idea that people have "places".

Does this make me a dick? Sometimes, but I do have a distinct problem with the idea that certain people can't talk about certain things - that communication can't happen, and that there are things beyond my ken.
Quote:
But that's not what I'm thinking. I'm confused with how you got that.
Because half your post was about the media's interaction with Occupy. In fact, I don't think it's a stretch to say that's what your post was exclusively about.

Quote:
I'm concerned with how occupy LOOKS because the media is doing it's damndest to make it LOOK more oppressive than it is, specifically so people like you won't give it a chance.
I don't think you should care about how Occupy looks. Care about how it is. Remember when you said that the media was picking up on those problems and amplifying them? If that is true, then they won't have anything to pick up on once those problems aren't present anymore. And if you feel that the media will still play a song that it's founded in reality, there's nothing you can really do about it, anyway.

Saya and I have decided that you are like me when Stern bashes America, but with Occupy. My reaction is typically "Every country does that." But it doesn't make his criticism any less valid.

Quote:
Yes, that's because he's stupid.
But he could be anybody.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:58 PM   #217
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Despanan. DO you ever just get super fuckin' pissed when religious people insist that YOU'RE mistaken when you start talking about how non-believers are treated and thought of in society?

Ever notice how infuriating it is when you have to have a conversation with a "moderate" Christian because they can't realize how their inaction actually perpetuates the very deformity of their faith?

Ever lose your shit when they accuse you of being super militant and that they employ false equivocation on you by saying you're as bad as the fundamental as if society is beyond the discussion of secularism and non-belief?

Fuck. I know I'm about to slap a mother fucker when I have to deal with people like that.
Thank you. I had the thought to make this comparison earlier, but I decided against it because, as an ignorant atheist, I couldn't articulate it nearly so well.
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:00 PM   #218
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Oh, shit. I totally forgot to respond to the first half of that. That quote block isn't there for no reason, Desp. I was just going to say the same thing that I said to AshleyO: that it's okay to talk about it, just don't be the monologue.
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:15 PM   #219
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjpti...eature=related

Eh. I'll stop here since the thread isn't about this stuff.
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:16 PM   #220
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Alan; Y U NO DISCUSS?

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That's awesome.

Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFeHZ...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hdqJ2QtpE4
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:19 PM   #221
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Alan is Rorschach.
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:24 PM   #222
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Hahahaha. XD
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:58 PM   #223
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Also, I don't know how familiar you are with Habermas and the public sphere, but its very untrue that the media is a conspiring monolith. At least, it gets less and less true as the years go on. The internet is a pretty democratic form of social media, people don't have to get their stories out via journalists anymore, we can simply just talk to each other. To called Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook, etc as "the media" out to smear Occupy is silly, and the burden of proof is much harder. One, because women are distrusted as liars and PoC are hella distrusted on top of that. We always lie, we are always to blame. Two, because the media doesn't normally like talking to us, if they don't report us, do we not exist? But then, they're conspiring, so even if they do talk to us, its all a media lie. Three, the draw back of internet means that you have to take a lot of people on their word, but also oppressors can delete and deny they did anything. For example, someone posted in response to a friend saying she'd like to do a feminist workshop, "what the hell does that have to do with poverty?" then deleted it. The admin of ON liked a comment that was hella sexist, then deleted the whole thread when they were called out. I have no proof because the proof is gone. I have no proof because the media isn't proof. We won't have "proof" until maybe we're documented in peer reviewed journals and well documented books are written, when Occupy is over and we're trying to warn the next generation not to make our mistakes. Until then we're hysterical and untrustworthy because white men only believe each other.

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Originally Posted by AshleyO
Yeah. I can only imagine that it's probably about 10 times worse for people of color when it comes to talking about racism and frankly, talking about non-belief for me is me going to the end of my rope. Frankly, I don't know how Versus and Saya's not just going out beating the tee total hell out of people for even an ounce of racism or sexism.
I think a lot of women, primarily white and middle class women who have a stake in the system, are really good at closing their eyes and not addressing anything. When a friend of mine graduated and got a job at the Court House, suddenly feminism was stupid and I should just turn off my brain, scrape by and not criticize, just wait till I get out in the real world. So they get by that way, and aside from stuff like street harassment (which has gotten more rare since I moved to a better part of town), no one really gives me serious shit until they realize I'm a feminist. That's probably true with some white men, I know some white gay men who are like that. Being feminist, atheist, queer, etc, is something I can hide, I can't imagine what its like being a PoC and being Othered as soon as white people see you.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:20 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewNolva View Post
thats Great thanks
Racist. racisttext
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:36 AM   #225
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Versus. How can a bot be racist?
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