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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 01-06-2012, 04:17 PM   #1
AshleyO
 
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"I don't like my hard earned tax dollars shoring up lazy people! Down with Welfare!"

I hear this a lot from conservatives.

Many of them are saying that if someone gets government aid because of being poor, it should be strictly and rigidly enforced to ensure they're not wasting that money. Basically, telling these people how to live while ALSO being poor. That's a gross sentiment in and of itself.

Many would also say they're sick of all the welfare fraud and welfare abuse.

What this boils down to is an inherent hatred of laziness.

But the end game is thus and WHY their sentiments aren't worthy of consideration:

We perfect the welfare system. Those that deserve the aid, receive it and the fraudulent and lazy are barred from this aid and "rightfully so". The lazy and the fraudulent are now cast out onto the streets with NO OTHER OPTION but to get a job.

There is a problem here. The system is now perfect. It has very perfectly identified the fraudulent and the lazy.

Now... You give me a manager who would be willing to hire a fraudulent and lazy person (since this can be absolutely proven now with a background check) and I'll show you a manager quicksharply on their way to this perfect welfare... where the way he spends that aid is DICTATED in every single way, a gross violation of human liberty at its very core.

The magnitude of this sentiment is simply thus: The totalitarian enslavement of the poor and the sentencing of DEATH by social ostracizing on a state level for the crime of being nothing more than LAZY.

If you seriously have a problem with welfare because you hate laziness so much, then mother fuck you.
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Old 01-07-2012, 02:36 AM   #2
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I wouldn't even classify it as being lazy.

Here in Europe if you want to change careers, the government will pay for training. You can leave your job and go back to college. During this period you can legally get social welfare. It's the same all over Europe, Scandinavia, and Australia.

Some people aren't lazy, they just hate their boring, meningeal job. With proper education and training that person can become a productive, tax paying member of society. Too bad in America they don't offer such safety net for everyone there.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:33 AM   #3
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I wouldn't even classify it as being lazy.

Here in Europe if you want to change careers, the government will pay for training. You can leave your job and go back to college. During this period you can legally get social welfare. It's the same all over Europe, Scandinavia, and Australia.
Er... sometimes... but it's not quite as cut & dried as that, chief. Say you're a Poundland worker who wants to be a nurse: you can APPLY for an access course, and if accepted will gain government bursaries, but these rarely cover your full cost of living (one of my friends who went this route had to spend a year or so working to put by living funds before starting her course). She was NOT allowed to go on benefits, any more than university students are allowed to.

Plus, this usually applies to jobs the government is on a recruitment drive for, rather than springing from some "help us help you find your dream career" value in European society (in the UK, at least). A few years ago it was teaching; now that Labour's "let's send every single school-leaver to university to pass the cost of education to the individual in question, and mask unemployment figures in one fell swoop" policy has created a surplus of graduates with degrees they can't really use, teaching is acually pretty competitive, especially in the arts. Those notices on public transport that were proclaiming "Those who can, teach" a few years ago, are now extolling the virtues of mental health nursing instead.

Europe definitely isn't some utopia where no one need eveer be trapped in a job they hate. MILLIONS of people are, with no realistic way out.
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Old 01-07-2012, 08:27 AM   #4
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Can I just interject here and say that I know several people personally who are both fully qualified (one guy's a trained chef) and fully capable of getting a job, who are on benefits and who make more money on those benefits than people who aren't on them. And I find it sickening. If you have a legit reason for not working fair enough, but the fact that you had ME 15 years ago doesn't cut it...especially when you somehow have the energy to attend countless dance and drama classes and fuck off to London whenever you want on my tax money.

/rant over
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:51 PM   #5
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If someone can live better off through welfare than with a full time job, that's not an indictment against welfare, it should be an indictment against capitalism.
Why the hell would someone want to work to earn LESS in the market than what they are provided for by the government? They would effectively be paying to work. If the government can provide better than the market, why do people condemn the government instead of the market?
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:11 PM   #6
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If someone can live better off through welfare than with a full time job, that's not an indictment against welfare, it should be an indictment against capitalism.
Why the hell would someone want to work to earn LESS in the market than what they are provided for by the government? They would effectively be paying to work. If the government can provide better than the market, why do people condemn the government instead of the market?
Bingo, I know a few people for whom this was the case, they got laid off from rather high paying work and their prospects were usually minimum wage, so they were like, "why wouldn't I use the EI I get and save up what I can?"

And I find it hilarious when people are like "ON MY TAX DOLLARS." There's a lot more worse things to be outraged by. The exuberant lifestyle of politicians? Retired politicians collecting millions in pension? Billions poured into the military and war? Millions wasted on abstinence only sex education? 37 billions dollars owed in child support, with those children going without having to rely on social assistance?
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:42 PM   #7
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What the original complainer (not the OP) is forgetting is that if he doesn't like the way his tax dollars are spent, and votes for representatives and propositions to support his desires, but loses to the majority, he must accept the rule of law that won. That is how our republic works. He can of course continue to whine about it.
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:56 AM   #8
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I wouldn't even classify it as being lazy.

Here in Europe if you want to change careers, the government will pay for training. You can leave your job and go back to college. During this period you can legally get social welfare. It's the same all over Europe, Scandinavia, and Australia.

Some people aren't lazy, they just hate their boring, meningeal job. With proper education and training that person can become a productive, tax paying member of society. Too bad in America they don't offer such safety net for everyone there.
President Nixon wanted to do that in the 1960s to help people get off of welfare but everyone claimed he was horrible for wanting such a thing and just hated poor people. Now that the average college degree in the US costs $70 to $130K and many college grads are still unemployed, because college is big business in the US but the number of degrees can't keep up with the job market, which means billions of federal and private student loan money is in default with no hope of it ever actually being repaid (private student loans are federally insured, which means if the student doesn't pay it, the government does).

So what happens when everyone is on welfare cause they just don't want to work, or because they get more money and benefits being on welfare than they do actually working? Who pays the welfare check then?
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:24 AM   #9
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So what happens when everyone is on welfare cause they just don't want to work, or because they get more money and benefits being on welfare than they do actually working?
Alan & Saya have already addressed this - if this is the case, then the system is clearly broken. If you make it more financially viable for people to be on welfare than to work then the system doesn't make sense, and stigmatizing people for doing the best they can for themselves and their families is pure victim-blaming.

The fact that US minimum wage does not necessarily mean a living wage has been discussed elsewhere on these boards; you can try stigmatizing people who take the more financially viable option of going on welfare, but aside from the fact that this demonstrably DOES NOT WORK, I suspect it also won't get you far with people who have always worked where possible, paid ther taxes, and now feel entitled to some reciprocal help from the system they've been paying into all their lives.

And finally, bitching about people not wanting to work is moot in an economy without enough jobs for people who DO want work.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:42 AM   #10
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stigmatizing people for doing the best they can for themselves and their families is pure victim-blaming.
I don't see where welfare is the best someone can do for their families, even if the welfare pays more than working. In fact I see it as doing worse for their families in the long run because it creates an environment and mindset where people are taught to depend on the government for what they need. That is a very dangerous system, but it's not "broken" if that's what the government wants. And it's becoming pretty clear that that's exactly what our government wants. The more a government provides, the more control it has over how you live your life.

I don't have a problem with someone taking temporary government assistance when they actually need it, due to physical disability or a way to help them get back on their feet in a financial crisis. And I don't think most people would have a problem with that either. The key word there being temporary. The problem comes when people use welfare for a free ticket to not work, to do whatever they want and expect the rest of the tax payers to pay their bills. That's the problem we have in the US, and obviously other parts of the world. Of course not everyone does but a good portion of them do.

Nothin wrong with being lazy. If you don't want to work, no one really has the right to force you to. But that also means no one should be obligated to pay for your existence either.

When you're using someone else's money to live on, you don't have the right to decide how you spend that money. You spend it on what it is provided for you to spend it on. That's why food stamps are supposed to be for food and not cable tv or cell phones. You don't need cable tv or a cell phone to survive. Those are luxuries. If you want luxuries, earn your own money, the way those tax payers that are paying for your food stamps do.
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Old 01-11-2012, 05:40 AM   #11
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I don't see where welfare is the best someone can do for their families, even if the welfare pays more than working. In fact I see it as doing worse for their families in the long run because it creates an environment and mindset where people are taught to depend on the government for what they need. That is a very dangerous system, but it's not "broken" if that's what the government wants. And it's becoming pretty clear that that's exactly what our government wants. The more a government provides, the more control it has over how you live your life.
Yet you continue to blame the people whom you believe to have been suckered in by this system, rather than the government you believe to be orchestrating it.

Even when you reframe the whole thing as a massive government conspiracy, you're still blaming the scam victim instead of the con-man.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:21 AM   #12
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I'm pretty sure victim blaming is the free space in Defensive Deviant Bingo.
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:07 AM   #13
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You can call them victims if you like, I call them opportunists, because that's exactly what they are, and are just as guilty as the government that created the system.

If a man walks down the street and sees a store front with a basket of merchandise out front and nobody around watching it, should he be allowed to take what he wants? It's easier than him having to pay for it, after all. Let the store pay for it, they make more money than he does. But, should somebody catch him stealing, using your logic, he would be a "victim".

While welfare isn't quite the same as stealing, if someone is receiving welfare when they know full well they are capable of working, they are stealing. At that point it doesn't matter that your welfare check pays your rent AND your cable, while mcdonalds only pays your rent, it makes you no different than the guy who steals from the store who offered him the opportunity. Not only does it create a mindset that it's okay, it diminishes the pot that could be used to provide for those who truly do have a legitimate need for it.

The current economy creates a climate that generates more welfare, but if the government actually wanted to do something to elevate that burden, they would be doing things to make the country more attractive for businesses to hire, instead of closing up shop and moving to other countries to avoid all the regulations and bullshit fines they face here.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:03 AM   #14
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While welfare isn't quite the same as stealing, if someone is receiving welfare when they know full well they are capable of working, they are stealing. At that point it doesn't matter that your welfare check pays your rent AND your cable, while mcdonalds only pays your rent, it makes you no different than the guy who steals from the store who offered him the opportunity. Not only does it create a mindset that it's okay, it diminishes the pot that could be used to provide for those who truly do have a legitimate need for it.
You must not have worked in fast food recently. When I worked at a Wendy's, they wouldn't give most people full time hours so they wouldn't have to give full time benefits. Women particularly usually got shit hours because they had tasks they considered to be exclusively for men, so if you're a chick you'd get like 15 hours a week while a dude got 50. Minimum wage then was something like 7.50, and it paid the rent then, but I was living on Mr. Noodles and Kraft Dinner and I don't have children. 7.50 would never pay the rent now, and rent seems pretty comparable to several places in the states, where minimum wage isn't what it is here (10 dollars an hour).

Working in retail now, its the same thing. They say they're going to hire you "part time", but in good months you get like 37.5 hours a week, just enough so you're working almost full time but not enough to get benefits. But now that its January, everyone is cut back. I'm in school right now so its not hurting me too too badly since I can rely on student grants from the government, but there are people who work there where its their only job, and they get cut back from almost full time to 10 hours a week. A lot of retail people ask to be just laid off until April so they can get EI and live rather than work a job that won't pay the rent. And the stores offer to do it.

My roommate just got laid off completely because an ex worker returned to town and they decided to bring her back on and cut back hours for everyone else, rooommate being the newest they just told her they were letting her go. Hunting for retail jobs suck ass until summer, and hit peak in the winter. She could work, but who's hiring?

It sucks worse for tipped employees in places where they don't even make minimum wage because their tips are assumed. Tips are awesome when you already have a liveable wage and its a nice treat, but when you make four bucks and hour and work in a touristy place and Europeans aren't used to tipping, its futile work.

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The current economy creates a climate that generates more welfare, but if the government actually wanted to do something to elevate that burden, they would be doing things to make the country more attractive for businesses to hire, instead of closing up shop and moving to other countries to avoid all the regulations and bullshit fines they face here.
Its always going to be more lucrative using a factory that doesn't always pay their workers the pennies an hour they're owed, then paying a liveable wage in America. If there was no minimum wage and we could get comparable jobs getting ourselves killed and screwed out of our wages if Walmart decides to do a roll back, you'd have even more people on welfare since no one wants to do that.

Its like when they deported immigrants and couldn't find one American willing to break their backs to do the farm jobs they do, so now farmers are screwed.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:14 AM   #15
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You can call them victims if you like, I call them opportunists, because that's exactly what they are, and are just as guilty as the government that created the system.

If a man walks down the street and sees a store front with a basket of merchandise out front and nobody around watching it, should he be allowed to take what he wants? It's easier than him having to pay for it, after all. Let the store pay for it, they make more money than he does. But, should somebody catch him stealing, using your logic, he would be a "victim".

While welfare isn't quite the same as stealing, if someone is receiving welfare when they know full well they are capable of working, they are stealing. At that point it doesn't matter that your welfare check pays your rent AND your cable, while mcdonalds only pays your rent, it makes you no different than the guy who steals from the store who offered him the opportunity. Not only does it create a mindset that it's okay, it diminishes the pot that could be used to provide for those who truly do have a legitimate need for it.

The current economy creates a climate that generates more welfare, but if the government actually wanted to do something to elevate that burden, they would be doing things to make the country more attractive for businesses to hire, instead of closing up shop and moving to other countries to avoid all the regulations and bullshit fines they face here.
...

No... I still see people who are better off on welfare than they are working as victims of a system that doesn't work.

You are basically positing hard work and self-reliance as important values, by saying that people who would be better off on welfare should think of the example they're setting to their children. However, that good old American dream doesn't simply value these Calvinistic virtues in and of themselves, it explicitly promises a pay-off: that is, "IF you work hard and make your way on merit, THEN you will achieve material security as your reward." That's what the American dream - the cornerstone of those values you're advocating - is.

If the pay-off isn't there, you would have to be either stupid or brainwashed into believing an ideal which does not serve you is your best option. Again, the only benefits are to the system your actions are propping up - and whoever THAT'S serving, it clearly, demonstrably is not you.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:52 PM   #16
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Hard work and self reliance is the only thing that has ever kept people free.

Nothing worth having comes easy. You can claim that people are better off on welfare than they are working for a "system that doesn't work", but all you're really doing is saying that people are better off allowing the government to take care of them instead of taking care of themselves.

If you're only getting 17 hours a week at your minimum wage job, that allows plenty of time left to work a 2nd job if need be, or learn a skill that you can market. Where is it written that you have to work for a corporation or a factory to make a living without depending on the government? You don't have to have a college degree to learn a skill. Libraries are still free.
There is plenty people can do to earn a living wage that doesn't require working for any corporation or relying on welfare. Wash cars on the weekends. cut grass, paint houses, learn how to do small repairs, run an ad on craigslist advertising whatever it is you know how to do, cause it's just about guaranteed someone will need it done and be willing to pay you. You may not get a 6 figure income, and yeah you probably will have to live on ramen for a while. You probably won't be able to afford that house or that fancy new car for a few years, and weekends out with your buddies socializing will likely be few and far between, but you're still freer than you would be depending on the government to provide for you, and you can keep what you earn.

85% of the US work force is employed by small businesses, not giant corporations. Small businesses that were built from the ground up by hard work, determination and self sacrifice. Something very few people seem to understand anymore. Everyone has an entitlement mentality where they think they deserve to have what their neighbor worked for without working for it themselves. That's not how life works. If you're too lazy to work for what you have, and there's nothing physically preventing you from doing so, then you don't deserve to have it, and you damned sure don't deserve to have it given to you by the people who did earn it.

And the bit about the farmers and immigrants is bullshit leftist speech. There are plenty of legal citizens that would work those farms if given the chance. Its the farmers that choose to hire the immigrants because they can get away with not paying them as much. Another wonderful benefit the minimum wage laws have given us. It's been proven repeatedly that government regulated minimum wage does nothing but create more poverty. Businesses are forced to downsize in order to cut costs, resulting in more lay-offs, more workers on the unemployment lines, more welfare checks.

It doesn't matter what system you live in, whether it's communism, capitalism, or any other -ism, life requires working to earn your fare share. I would rather live in a free society where I get to choose where I work and what I own than to have the government dictating it to me. The more people depend on their government for their well-being, the less freedoms they have. You can choose to be blind to that all you want to, you're only screwing yourself in the end.

And no one has answered my original question: When everyone is on welfare, who pays the check?
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:41 PM   #17
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You do not deal with the world, you only deal with hypotheticals. This is why your political views are meaningless.
"that allows plenty of time left to work a 2nd job if need be" yeah because the market is just booming with available jobs.
"or learn a skill that you can market" yeah because education is so cheap and accessible for someone with a part-time job.
"85% of the US work force is employed by small businesses, not giant corporations" patently false
"but you're still freer than you would be depending on the government to provide for you" you're not freer by taking it up the ass by companies who decide what your time and labor is worth
"When everyone is on welfare, who pays the check?" That's not how welfare works; it's not a fucking slippery slope.
"I would rather live in a free society where I get to choose where I work and what I own than to have the government dictating it to me." Government isn't dictating work to you, dipshit. We're just talking about welfare to those who find no jobs. YOU are the ones taking way THEIR choice of work by bitching about how THEY should work to EARN LESS than what they'd earn if they would refuse that job. You're not caring about freedom and labor; you're advocating sacrifice and wage slavery in the name of businesses, not people.

Do you even have a job? Why do I get the feeling you come from a privileged background and you have no way how the world really works?
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:39 AM   #18
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How the hell did I not call it? I should have seen Deviant coming a mile away.


...Shit. I am so out of touch.

Gothic.net, I don't even know you anymore.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:07 AM   #19
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Hard work and self reliance is the only thing that has ever kept people free.
Yes. When does freedom come when you're doing 2 or 3 jobs just to keep your head above water? Can you give me a definition of this word "freedom" you're speaking about and when do we as workers ever have time to enjoy this freedom? What are the fruits of our labors?

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Nothing worth having comes easy. You can claim that people are better off on welfare than they are working for a "system that doesn't work", but all you're really doing is saying that people are better off allowing the government to take care of them instead of taking care of themselves.
Yes. You know, slaving away, using the best years of your life is a god damned BEAUTIFUL solution to how we operate in a capitalistic machine. I'm happy to know that by the time I'm old and feeble and practically useless, I might be able to finally have the time to watch my stories on cable TV.

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If you're only getting 17 hours a week at your minimum wage job, that allows plenty of time left to work a 2nd job if need be, or learn a skill that you can market.
This has been addressed.

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Where is it written that you have to work for a corporation or a factory to make a living without depending on the government? You don't have to have a college degree to learn a skill. Libraries are still free.(Actually, that's socialism at work, holmes.)
Yes. Everyone is an autodidact. You can be first in line for the doctor who got his education reading the medical journals and the text books for free from the library while he NEVER ONCE EVER had any clinical practice. Be my guest. Let him poke you with needles.

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There is plenty people can do to earn a living wage that doesn't require working for any corporation or relying on welfare. Wash cars on the weekends. cut grass, paint houses, learn how to do small repairs, run an ad on craigslist advertising whatever it is you know how to do, cause it's just about guaranteed someone will need it done and be willing to pay you.
Do you have an instruction's manual on how to be a human? You seem to see every single person as the exact same with the exact same potential and the exact same mind. This makes no sense. I do understand the fringe elemental people who work on a gig to gig basis. But you're demanding that they simply do more and more and more work no matter what just to get by. TO WHAT END, Deviant? Do you propose the working class simply say, "FUCK LEISURE and FUCK family and FUCK sleep! We work because that's how we get by." Nice, Deviant. That's insane.

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You may not get a 6 figure income, and yeah you probably will have to live on ramen for a while. You probably won't be able to afford that house or that fancy new car for a few years, and weekends out with your buddies socializing will likely be few and far between, but you're still freer than you would be depending on the government to provide for you, and you can keep what you earn.
Ugh, that word freedom again. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Explain to us in empirical and clinical detail how being poor yet doing nothing but work indefinitely is somehow freedom. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SHIT explain that to us.

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85% of the US work force is employed by small businesses, not giant corporations.
You're going to have to start citing sources. Deviant, I think you're a liar.

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Small businesses that were built from the ground up by hard work, determination and self sacrifice. Something very few people seem to understand anymore. Everyone has an entitlement mentality where they think they deserve to have what their neighbor worked for without working for it themselves. That's not how life works. If you're too lazy to work for what you have, and there's nothing physically preventing you from doing so, then you don't deserve to have it, and you damned sure don't deserve to have it given to you by the people who did earn it.
Man, you really hate people.

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And the bit about the farmers and immigrants is bullshit leftist speech. There are plenty of legal citizens that would work those farms if given the chance. Its the farmers that choose to hire the immigrants because they can get away with not paying them as much. Another wonderful benefit the minimum wage laws have given us. It's been proven repeatedly that government regulated minimum wage does nothing but create more poverty. Businesses are forced to downsize in order to cut costs, resulting in more lay-offs, more workers on the unemployment lines, more welfare checks.
That's not an argument against regulations, that's a perfect argument against capitalism. You defined the very nature of capitalism to a tee. Business first and foremost and ever. I bet the next thing you're going to say is deregulate completely and let the workers bust their asses as hard as they can to earn the favor of those who own because THAT'S freedom. Right, Deviant? I think your definition of "freedom" is knowing that you gained the favor of some owner through your hard work. Deviant, I think Malcom X and Richard Wright would like to have a word with you. Go have a seat over there.

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It doesn't matter what system you live in, whether it's communism, capitalism, or any other -ism, life requires working to earn your fare share. I would rather live in a free society where I get to choose where I work and what I own than to have the government dictating it to me. The more people depend on their government for their well-being, the less freedoms they have. You can choose to be blind to that all you want to, you're only screwing yourself in the end.
We get it. We all agreed with you on this very salient point... but then we left our trapper keepers behind and joined the real world.

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And no one has answered my original question: When everyone is on welfare, who pays the check?
Alan answered this question. Welfare is not a slippery slope. If it were, we'd be able to conclude that welfare for the poor is what caused the economic collapses. You are right about one thing. If NO ONE works, then nothing would actually get done. But this is a catastrophic situation that I'd dare say is absolutely inhuman. Your situation would in fact galvanize the proletariat to re appropriate property and wealth to such a way that all had access to being productive without really having to... you know, work more instead of having time to be with the people they care about. Maybe... you should put the John Wayne shit down for a second and pick up some Erich Fromm. I'd propose you read "The Art of Loving". He actually goes into detail in a roundabout way as to why your sentiments are those of alienation and why that's actually systemic more than anything else. Protip: His language is that of an anthropological view, so a lot of his stuff is presented in such a way that defines a Western audience and not exactly YOU in particular. You're going to love the bit where he mentions that homosexuals are broken because they lack the access requires socially to express their love.
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Old 01-12-2012, 05:27 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by x-deviant-x View Post
Nothing worth having comes easy. You can claim that people are better off on welfare than they are working for a "system that doesn't work", but all you're really doing is saying that people are better off allowing the government to take care of them instead of taking care of themselves.
Yes, exactly. Where there are few options and virtually all of the non-welfare related ones involve scraping by on a wage that doesn’t even pretend to be a living wage, I am indeed saying that people are better off on welfare.

You know, if the government is so put-upon, I would suggest they stop sinking billions into a war most of the tax-payers of your country DO NOT WANT, and put some of that dollar into creating jobs for the people they took it from going “Oh yeah, we need this to run your country for you”. Yet none of this shit, nor other flagrant abuses of taxpayers’ money Saya pointed out, seem to bother you (or even register in your mind as injustices). All you bitch about is welfare, which takes up a solid 1% of the annual American budget. That’s some stellar reasoning there bro.

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Originally Posted by x-deviant-x View Post
Hard work and self reliance is the only thing that has ever kept people free.
1) Questioning authority & the status quo have historically been just as vital, if not more so.

2) Embracing ANY ideal unquestioningly and unconditionally, without engaging your critical faculties, is the POLAR OPPOSITE of freedom.

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Nothing worth having comes easy.
Again, not true. I was born with these good looks, son. My cheekbones alone are proof that sometime, life arbitrarily hands privilege to people.

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Originally Posted by x-deviant-x View Post
There is plenty people can do to earn a living wage that doesn't require working for any corporation or relying on welfare. Wash cars on the weekends. cut grass, paint houses, learn how to do small repairs, run an ad on craigslist advertising whatever it is you know how to do, cause it's just about guaranteed someone will need it done and be willing to pay you. You may not get a 6 figure income, and yeah you probably will have to live on ramen for a while. You probably won't be able to afford that house or that fancy new car for a few years, and weekends out with your buddies socializing will likely be few and far between, but you're still freer than you would be depending on the government to provide for you, and you can keep what you earn.
This is just naïve beyond belief. Businesses are closing daily because people don’t have any money to spend, and you expect people to stay of welfare by washing cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-deviant-x View Post
85% of the US work force is employed by small businesses, not giant corporations. Small businesses that were built from the ground up by hard work, determination and self sacrifice. Something very few people seem to understand anymore. Everyone has an entitlement mentality where they think they deserve to have what their neighbor worked for without working for it themselves. That's not how life works. If you're too lazy to work for what you have, and there's nothing physically preventing you from doing so, then you don't deserve to have it, and you damned sure don't deserve to have it given to you by the people who did earn it.
1) Source for the 85% statistic, please.

2) Claims to being a millionaire by merit mask the fact that half your country’s poster-kids for The Meritocracy of the Self-Made Man inherited much of their wealth. That’s how privilege works, even before you get to the fact that the current global recession doesn’t exactly provide the same kind of open market that those guys were dealing with. And these are the damn figureheads for pure meritocracy, so I’d love to see how the stats on wealthy peeps who make no such claims shape up.

You assume that everybody with wealth and security has worked for it. This is demonstrably false. Therefore, the argument that these red herring conclusions have led you to are worthless.

Just sayin'.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:10 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Alan View Post
You do not deal with the world, you only deal with hypotheticals.
LOL = this coming from a douche that can’t give a single example of a socialist/Marxist society that has not ended in tyranny or oppression, but thinks it’s the best way for mankind to continue, and I’m the one dealing with hypotheticals? ROFLMAO

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Originally Posted by Alan View Post
"85% of the US work force is employed by small businesses, not giant corporations" patently false
Over 99% of all employing organizations in the US are small businesses.
Maybe you need to wipe the Marxist bullshit out of your eyes and read that again.

OVER 99% OF ALL EMPLOYING ORGANIZATIONS IN THE US ARE SMALL BUSINESSES.

Small businesses are the largest employer in the country representing 53% of US workers

The 30 million small businesses in the USA account for 64% of net new jobs (jobs created minus jobs lost).

70% of jobs created in the last decade were by small business.

The proportion of Americans employed by small business versus large business has remained relatively the same year by year as some small businesses become large businesses and just over half of small businesses survive more than 5 years.

The median household income in the US as of 2008 is $52,029.

SOURCE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_economy#Employment
http://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/sbfaq.pdf

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Originally Posted by Alan View Post
Do you even have a job? Why do I get the feeling you come from a privileged background and you have no way how the world really works?
I own my own business in entertainment media. I’m an artist, as I’ve told you before. A business that I’ve spent the past 10 years building on my own, with my own money, labor and sweat. I quit working for “the man” over 5 years ago. I still live on ramen when I need to and I still work odd jobs when money is tight - jobs that have nothing to do with my career. I do whatever it takes to survive. I’ve never had to rely on the government for assistance. If it means not eating for a week, so be it. I did, reluctantly, apply for food stamps once about 4 years ago and was issued a card, but never used it because it was an issue of contingency with my ex, who somehow felt belittled for needing it. So to make him happy I cut the card in half. Of course that still didn’t make him happy.

What I have is mine. It’s not much but I’ve earned it, I share it with whom I choose to share it with and no one else. I don’t live on credit. I own my own vehicle outright. When I can’t afford gas in my truck, I just don’t go anywhere until I can afford it. I don’t come from any sort of privilege. My family has always been military. They own their own houses and land, which they purchased themselves, with money they earned. I don’t own a house yet. I rent, because I haven’t decided where I want to live and don’t want to be strapped into a mortgage in an area I don’t want to stay in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley
Man, you really hate people.
In 37 years I've never once met a single one I could trust - and fuck knows i've tried - so yeah, I do, but that really has nothing to do with any of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley
You're going to love the bit where he mentions that homosexuals are broken
He would be correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuckooTuli
All you bitch about is welfare, which takes up a solid 1% of the annual American budget.
More leftist bullshit. Welfare makes up 12% of US budget.
SOURCE: http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/piechart_2012_US_fed

Welfare is paid for by tax dollars. Welfare recipients do not pay taxes. So your bullshit side-stepping does not answer the question. When everyone is on welfare who pays the check?

You all want some ideological, utopian society where everyone helps everyone and shares everything with everyone, while they come and go as they please and do whatever they want to do, and somehow all the work that is required for a society to sustain itself just "magically" happens, because people "love each other", and you're telling me I should wake up? Those Occupy r.ape tents are great examples of just how much socialists love each other.

It’s never going to happen in the US. You can keep on fantasizing about your Marxist wet dream all you like,IT WILL NOT HAPPEN HERE. Unless you can dream up some kind of way to take the property from the estimated 53 million Americans who own guns in this country. And those are just the ones who are documented. So if you’re brave enough to accomplish that, then maybe you have a shot. The UN isn’t going to do it. Obama isn’t going to do it. Not without a civil war. You think a bunch of hippies in times square can? Lol. Right.
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:43 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by x-deviant-x View Post
LOL = this coming from a douche that can’t give a single example of a socialist/Marxist society that has not ended in tyranny or oppression, but thinks it’s the best way for mankind to continue, and I’m the one dealing with hypotheticals?
Lula's Brazil, Cardenas' Mexico, anarchist Barcelona, Seattle 1919, Zapatista Chiapas, Christiania, the Paris Commune, the IWW, Paris '68, Baja California in the Mexican Revolution, Sandinista Nicaragua, Allende's Chile, Nepal, antifascist northern Italy, and antifascist Greece, the velvet revolution, the orange revolution, the jazmin revolution, the Beijing Spring....
But I have mentioned this before. You just don't care because you're not really making an argument; you're just bitching out loud because you don't care about truth, you care about pretending to be right.



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OVER 99% OF ALL EMPLOYING ORGANIZATIONS IN THE US ARE SMALL BUSINESSES.
You dipshit; "all employing organizations" does NOT mean all jobs. Employing FIRMS, which is the term your own link says, are simply firms who have specific employees on their payroll, and they are a minority of jobs.
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Employer firms have the lion’s share of receipts and payroll, while nonemployer firms are far more numerous. (http://archive.sba.gov/advo/research/data.html)

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Small businesses are the largest employer in the country representing 53% of US workers

The 30 million small businesses in the USA account for 64% of net new jobs (jobs created minus jobs lost).
No, the very same link you posted says that the have created 64% of the jobs IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
And the fact that you mention NET jobs is just an indicator of the rising unemployment. The labor market has decreased and the disparage between the percentage of jobs created by small businesses compared to the percentage of Americans working in small businesses is exactly correlated with the shrinking availability of jobs. And this statistic is from the past 17 years; meaning right in the middle of the neoliberal Bush years and latter Clinton years.

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The proportion of Americans employed by small business versus large business has remained relatively the same year by year
The statistics you mentioned above point to the EXACT OPPOSITE being fact.

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as some small businesses become large businesses and just over half of small businesses survive more than 5 years.
Let's include the end of the sentence you're referring to, shall we?
"...and a quarter stay in business 15 years or more."
A quarter is still respectable, but far from the image you're trying to propagandize by selecting which parts of the study to highlight.

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The median household income in the US as of 2008 is $52,029.
Measuring median income means nothing by itself. Compare it to the reduction in MEAN household income and what that means is that while the recession affected few of the richer people in regards to income, it meaningfully affected the income of most people below the median.
But this is giving you too much credit, seeing how measuring household incomes, both mean and median, only applies to people who already have jobs
So, seeing how this is a discussion about employment and unemployment, the fact that you try to make an 'argument' by showing how well people who HAVE jobs are in a time when unemployment went up to encompass 1 out of every 6 Americans just five months ago, is entirely stupid, if not transparently low from your part.




But then again, I'm talking to a guy who for no apparent reason called the OWS tents 'r.ape tents' and that 'homosexuals are broken', so fuck off because you aren't even close to being grounded on reality.
Why don't you go to an objectivist forum or Alex Jones' website and bitch about how the story of the upperclass white man is the saddest story in the history of mankind.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:59 PM   #23
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I just got my W-2's I made 3,250 for my yearly income. Yay me... wait this is far below the proposed $52,000 i should be making... where's the rest of my money?!
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:02 PM   #24
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You're always the smartest guy in the room Alan.

Like I said, try arguing your Marxist bullshit with the business end of a gun and see how far that gets you in this country. Right where you belong.
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by x-deviant-x View Post
LOL = this coming from a douche that can’t give a [...] ended in tyranny or oppression, but thinks it’s the best way for mankind to continue, and I’m the one dealing with hypotheticals? ROFLMAO
Stop being a jerk and just watch The Take and come back and tell us that any amount of socialism is flawed. The fact that you actually think capitalism is a final solution, that it's the best that we can ever do, is patently totalitarian. You toe the line of nihilism and fascism.


Quote:
Over 99% of all employing organizations in the US are small businesses.
Maybe you need to wipe the Marxist bullshit out of your eyes and read that again.
It was 85% and now it's 99%. Deviant; cite your sources. These numbers you're throwing at us are important and exceptional. So the burden of proof is on you.

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OVER 99% OF ALL EMPLOYING ORGANIZATIONS IN THE US ARE SMALL BUSINESSES.
Again, cite your sources. Exceptional claims demand exceptional evidence.

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Small businesses are the largest employer in the country representing 53% of US workers
Cite your source.

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The 30 million small businesses in the USA account for 64% of net new jobs (jobs created minus jobs lost).
Cite your source.

Quote:
70% of jobs created in the last decade were by small business.

The proportion of Americans employed by small business versus large business has[...]some small businesses become large businesses and just over half of small businesses survive more than 5 years.
If you're going to try to lecture us on the virtue of the petty fascist that are small businesses, then please cite your sources. This is almost annoying, Deviant. Do you not realize that throwing statistics around like this is hearsay? Do you not realize why peer review is important? Besides, even if you could empirically prove that small business is the backbone of the US, exactly what are you trying to prove in the end? What is your end game? Right now, you're spouting useless information.

Quote:
The median household income in the US as of 2008 is $52,029.
Yes. For example, when you average school grades, your median score IS your score. So let's say you get straight As on 2 classes out of say... 10. You get 3 Bs and then the rest are F- grades. What would your GPA actually look like? It would look like you were actually a C student when in reality, the majority of your grades are actually failures. Think of this like the difference between rich and poor.

Finally. But I still don't know what your thesis is.


Quote:
I own my own business in entertainment media. I’m an artist, as I’ve told you before. A business that I’ve spent the past 10 years building on my own, with my own money, labor and sweat. I quit working for “the man” over 5 years ago. I still live on ramen when I need to and I still work odd jobs when money is tight - jobs that have nothing to do with my career. I do whatever it takes to survive.
With a country as capable as the United States, it's laughable that we consider ourselves survivalists or that we'd have to resort to survival tactics in the most richest and opulent country in the world. That's some serious weirdness, dude.


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I’ve never had to rely on the government for assistance. If it means not eating for a week, so be it.
Why is this condition EVER okay? Though I seriously doubt you had to do that. When I was in the military, I ran out of money one week. I had to live on water, a shot of espresso, and the free donuts and coffee that I got to eat once a day. I was proud like you. I didn't ask any of my shipmates for help. I LIVED ON DOUGHNUTS, Deviant. I don't feel morally justified, I feel as if I unduly suffered for no reason and I actually ATE food a little bit, even though it was once a day. You know NOTHING of starvation. Anyone that actually experienced it would understand that you wouldn't want that kind of thing to exist for ANYONE AT ALL.


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I did, reluctantly, apply for food stamps once about 4 years ago and was issued a card, but never used it because it was an issue of contingency with my ex, who somehow felt belittled for needing it. So to make him happy I cut the card in half. Of course that still didn’t make him happy.
So instead of getting help, you opted out to make things worse. How calvinistic of you.

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What I have is mine. It’s not much but I’ve earned it, I share it with whom I choose to share it with and no one else. I don’t live on credit. I own my own vehicle outright. When I can’t afford gas in my truck, I just don’t go anywhere until I can afford it. I don’t come from any sort of privilege. My family has always been military.
Fuck you, the military has AWESOME benefits. You're a military brat. Even if your folks were enlisted, you got some SICK ASS benefits provided by tax payer money. The military is NOT privatized. You have undermined your entire argument now, military brat.
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They own their own houses and land, which they purchased themselves, with money they earned.
From a socialist construct like the military, they earned their wages. You have NO credit to your argument anymore.

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I don’t own a house yet. I rent, because I haven’t decided where I want to live and don’t want to be strapped into a mortgage in an area I don’t want to stay in.
This I can understand to a degree.



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In 37 years I've never once met a single one I could trust - and fuck knows i've tried - so yeah, I do, but that really has nothing to do with any of this.
37 and nothing to show for it except some kind of... Calvinistic moral justification. How brave.





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More leftist bullshit. Welfare makes up 12% of US budget.
SOURCE: http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/piechart_2012_US_fed
This is REALLY interesting, isn't it? 10% unemployed and 12% welfare. So... if you wanted to be a dick about it, 2% are actually abusing welfare while the rest actually need it. If you want to be catastrophic about it, 12% of Americans are on welfare and 10% are unemployed but not using welfare because stupid shits like you would make them feel less of a person for getting any kind of help. So which is is? 2% fraud or 22% total unemployment in the USA? Is that even remotely acceptable?

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Welfare is paid for by tax dollars. Welfare recipients do not pay taxes. So your bullshit side-stepping does not answer the question. When everyone is on welfare who pays the check?
The rich do. However, if you're trying to be that catastrophic, welfare wouldn't really be the problem. You're afraid of a totally lazy culture, which simply does not exist and if it did, it would die... very quickly. Humanity simply doesn't just lay down and die that easily.

Quote:
You all want some ideological, utopian society where everyone helps everyone and shares everything with everyone, while they come and go as they please and do whatever they want to do, and somehow all the work that is required for a society to sustain itself just "magically" happens, because people "love each other", and you're telling me I should wake up?
No. We're not utopians. I'll be the first to admit that there IS and will be and very much those that deserve to be dealt with by purges in the face of a total populist movement. It's not to say that a populist movement should be violent, it's to say that it's a tactic that we would reluctantly use because SOME people can't be convinced. There are SEVERAL leftists who would disagree with me when I say that in the event of egalitarianism, violence and killing DOES have its place in our arsenal for change.

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Those Occupy r.ape tents are great examples of just how much socialists love each other.
Where did you get that information? That is patently ludicrous. It's almost offensive that you demand socialist to be PERFECT while you're allowed to be absolutely horrible because it's easier for you to believe in human hatred while disregarding altruism or even rational self interested altruism.

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It’s never going to happen in the US. You can keep on fantasizing about your Marxist wet dream all you like,IT WILL NOT HAPPEN HERE.
Sadly, I agree with you. I will contest that OWS doesn't want real functional and cultural change, they want softer bonds.

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Unless you can dream up some kind of way to take the property from the estimated 53 million Americans who own guns in this country. And those are just the ones who are documented. So if you’re brave enough to accomplish that, then maybe you have a shot. The UN isn’t going to do it. Obama isn’t going to do it. Not without a civil war.
If I should be so bold, you seem to think civil war is something that will never happen again. I'd stress that it probably will someday and it WILL be between the classes. And when it does, it'll be owners vs. those who do not. If there was a new civil war in America, the government will not be a target. It will be the very capitalist culture which dominates it.

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You think a bunch of hippies in times square can? Lol. Right.
No. I don't think a bunch of hippies in Zucotti park will actually change America in any reasonable way. America isn't prone to radical change for the most part.

I mean, let's be real here. In the event of something so catastrophic as Civil War 2, what exactly would you be defending, Deviant? Barring freedom (that's a nebulous word that's pretty much lost all meaning as well as the word for peace), what exactly is it that you actually think you'd be defending?
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