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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 02-13-2006, 02:53 PM   #101
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Yeah. I'm sorry, when it comes to state welfare system, food stamps, etc. in the US, I'm pretty much clueless.

Just offering my occasional, humble opinion from the perspective of someone who doesn't consider the possibility of being an illegal in some country at some point as extremely distant.

Awkward sentence...
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Old 02-13-2006, 11:16 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xnguela
You're not English/British?
I'm from California, I'm in the USAF, stationed in England. Never really said much for a while about being in the military, because usually people either treat you as a recruiter or assume they know your political standings - but you all here are different, so I have come clean.
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Old 02-14-2006, 07:05 AM   #103
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Maddox Says...

I was going through Maddox's page out of boredom, and here's what he has to say...
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Old 02-14-2006, 07:31 AM   #104
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Heh, I just think its funny that people here will be blatenly racist and bigoted, make deragotory comment after another about the French, Muslims, and people of other than the American Christian faith, belittle anyone who says they are from another country, and assume that even though say mexicans represent less than %18 of the national population in the states, they are still somehow the largest recipients of social welfare.

I mean, lets face it, most of the comments in this thread are in line with not only Robertson, but the KKK, National Front, and the Aryan Nation.

Why not just take the advise of an aforementioned poster and just kill all those people? I mean, at the end of the day, people who are filled with this much hate that is displayed here end up attacking people not like themselves.

You know who you are.
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Old 02-14-2006, 05:56 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
*I’m using California as my base since they have the highest number of illegal-immigrants*

Based on the fiscal year 2001 allotments, State and Federal allotment came out to $648,452, 648. Based on best estimates, the illegal status population was at 2,000,000. That translates to, 324 dollars per person. Using the federal poverty guidelines, set at 9,570, and just to make it easy on me since it’s been a long day, I’ll half the population to account for minor children and the elderly, and to offset the numbers for households greater than 2. That brings an income of around $9,570,000,000. Using the basic statistic for San Diego on annual expenditures: 40% Housing, 11.8% food, 4.6% entertainment, 3.4% Clothing, 18.3% transportation and excluding those expenditures like insurance and medical, as well as modifying the base for entertainment to 6% for the impoverished and reducing transportation cost to 4% to try and compensate for the lack of car payments and project what gas and mass transit may cost, and to further simplify and understate the annual cost expenditure lets round the 65.2% number I was left with to an even 50%. 50% of $9,570,000,000 is $4,785,000,000.

A low estimate then, is illegals contributed nearly 5 billion dollars to California’s economy. Based on an item sales tax of 7.75%, that would be roughly $370,837,500 just in tax revenue.

It’s been a while since I took math, but isn’t $4,785,000,000 greater than $648,452, 648?
it is.

yes.

but if we just focus on taxes (numbers you provided) and forget the fact that their income tax was forgiven, or better said, never collected because they they sidestepped yet another law in this country - yours and mine would be collected come hell or high water - the expenditures of california citizens to pay for services was greater than the dollar amount illegal aliens paid into the government to offset the dollars paid, thereby forcing the working american citizen to foot the bill, or make up the difference by paying even more taxes.


$648,452,648
-$370,837,500
--------------
$277,615,148 - paid by california residents over and above their own taxes to keep their own lives in check. taxes are high enough in this country, in my opinion, and a burden is a burden.
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Old 02-14-2006, 06:08 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
Heh, I just think its funny that people here will be blatenly racist and bigoted, make deragotory comment after another about the French, Muslims, and people of other than the American Christian faith, belittle anyone who says they are from another country, and assume that even though say mexicans represent less than %18 of the national population in the states, they are still somehow the largest recipients of social welfare.
people express frustrations in their own way. just because someone, any one of us, doesn't feel obligated to open our arms to law breakers on the basis of their wanting to come into the country and get what they can by illegal means doesn't automatically make any of us racist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsternn
I mean, lets face it, most of the comments in this thread are in line with not only Robertson, but the KKK, National Front, and the Aryan Nation.
i don't agree with that. specifically, i don't agree that each of those people / groups you mentioned would deal with or express their opinions in exactly the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsternn
Why not just take the advise of an aforementioned poster and just kill all those people? I mean, at the end of the day, people who are filled with this much hate that is displayed here end up attacking people not like themselves.
you know what it's like to attack someone "not like" yourself. i don't. expressing an opinion, voicing frustration and demanding change is not in any way, shape or form like killing people just because you don't agree with their illegal living. that might sit well in your mind when the day is done. i don't feel the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsternn
You know who you are.
whoever they are, they're not fitting the picture you're painting.
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Old 02-14-2006, 06:46 PM   #107
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You also have to think about taxes in general. In the states, you are taxes multiple times for the same monies.

For example...

1. You get your paycheck, automatically you have taxes removed.
2. You buy items (ie. food, alcohol, an automobile) and are taxed again
3. You sell the item (ie. car, boat, etc) and must pay tax on this at the end of the year
4. At the end of the year, once again your belongings are assessed and you are once again taxed.

Granted, illegals may get by without paying some tax, but at the end of the day the monies generated are still being taxed to some extent or, if the owner of the company is keeping the monies (ie. paying under the table) he still is paying taxes on monies generated.

I'd be willing to wager that companies that bank off shore and hide their profits (ie. like enron and the like) cost the tax payers much more every year than all the illegal mexicans working in the US combined. Funny thing is, no one goes after them for not paying billions, but yet everyone complains when Juan Doe works labor for a week and doesn't pay on the $150 he gets for 60 hours of work.
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Old 02-14-2006, 11:55 PM   #108
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Your figures don't include the wonderful "Federal Witholding" we pay. It's over and above the federal income tax. The social security tax and the medicare tax we pay, on average, amounts to 800.00 per 10,000.000 each year. (Rough estimate, looking at my own w2 form). Nor does it take into account state income taxes.

If you think 800 is a paltry sum, add it up. I can pay the property tax, one utility, and buy groceries with that money.

Also, the illegals recieve goods and services, like housing, medicaid, ect. that more than equal the total they would get back in earned income credit. I had medicaid for my daughter's birth. Several of the mothers who went to the same doctors I did were illegals on medicaid. This was 1992.

Many are dirt poor, and I for one am glad they get these benefits. I'm willing to pay a little extra each paycheck for the illegals to have food, shelter, education and health care, just as I'm willing to pay some for the disabled and elderly. If they can get a decent standard of living in this world, more power to them.

What I don't like is the ones who send the money out of the U.S., whether it's companies paying 10 cents an hour to kids in sweat shops in china or illegals who come over to our country then send the money back home.

And the bit about illegals only picking fruit or flipping burgers? Please! They own businesses. My old land lord was an illegal alien. Another friend owned a restaurant and a third owned a tree service. They only hired illegal aliens to work for them. They bought the businesses from other illegal aliens.

I don't recall being asked for more than an id to register a title to our new home, and it could be a utility bill or an employee id.
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Old 02-15-2006, 07:36 AM   #109
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The other large looming aspect of this discussion is lets say all illegal immigrants did leave. The american economy would collapse. Why? Think about it. We are talking hundreds of thousands of people currently working.

With no mexicans coming in to pick fruit and what not, who will do it? I used to work with the Teamsters and the AFL-CIO a few years back now. They had members in california that were not citizens. They helped fight for their rights, as those people were beinng treated like dogs, forced to work 18 hours, and paid literally in pennies. The lettuce industry was probably the worse. Google it for more info.

The point I'm making is, who will do the season harvests in california that keep the california econmomy going? Who do you think harvests all those flordia oranges? What do you think would happen if those people weren't there?

You think college students looking for work would just fly down to do work for half what minimum wage is and no benefits?

Bottom line is illegal labor fuels the us economy. Like it or not, it would literally cause big issues without those people. The us economy could not sustain being without illegal immigrant work. To replace these people with actual us citizens and pay them a living wage would bankrupt almost every farming industry in the states.
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Old 02-15-2006, 08:57 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
The other large looming aspect of this discussion is lets say all illegal immigrants did leave. The american economy would collapse. Why? Think about it. We are talking hundreds of thousands of people currently working.
this is laughable for two reasons - 1.) according to this statement, the economic stability of the united states of america is depenadant on illegal aliens and 2.) if there are upwards of 8,000,000 illegals in the country and only "hundreds of thousands" are working, we've got a bigger problem than any of us have touched upon.

check this out - http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=9380

and spare me the pedestal you've placed illegals on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsternn
With no mexicans coming in to pick fruit and what not, who will do it?
now who's the one slinging racist shit here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsternn
I used to work with the Teamsters and the AFL-CIO a few years back now. They had members in california that were not citizens. They helped fight for their rights, as those people were beinng treated like dogs, forced to work 18 hours, and paid literally in pennies. The lettuce industry was probably the worse. Google it for more info.

The point I'm making is, who will do the season harvests in california that keep the california econmomy going? Who do you think harvests all those flordia oranges? What do you think would happen if those people weren't there?

You think college students looking for work would just fly down to do work for half what minimum wage is and no benefits?

Bottom line is illegal labor fuels the us economy. Like it or not, it would literally cause big issues without those people. The us economy could not sustain being without illegal immigrant work. To replace these people with actual us citizens and pay them a living wage would bankrupt almost every farming industry in the states.
wrong, wrong and wrong. read the article.

so, to this paranoid rambling, i'll cry bunk - http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=9380

i'll sum it up for you, if you'd like - that argument about economical crisis without illegals here in america is bullshit.

i want to write more but i have to leave. arrrgh!
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Old 02-15-2006, 09:48 AM   #111
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Yeah, that webpage is dodgy at best. Your basing your theories on some guys personal hompage. If you look at the front page, it talks about the 'persecution of christians in todays society' and makes various anti-gay remarks (refering to lesbians as 'capet munchers'). Not thinking thats the site you want to use to base any real statistics on.

As for my comments, most all of the farm workers in the state of California are illegal mexican migrant workers. Not a racist statement, a fact.

"They make up 53 percent of the approximately 1.8 million farmworkers in the country, up from about 12 percent in 1989-1990, according to the Labor Department's Agricultural Workers Survey.

"The fact is, the fresh produce industry couldn't exist without a foreign work force, but we don't have a mechanism to bring in foreign workers," said Tom Nassif, president of Western Growers Association, which represents more than 3,000 farmers in Arizona and California.

Nassif is asking federal lawmakers for a temporary program to allow workers into the country to pick winter vegetables and avert a labor shortage he says could cost the industry billions. And like other farm representatives, he wants a guest worker program that can provide the industry with a stable work force."

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pb...4001/0/INDEPTH

Or, we could go into how Wal-Mart got busted with how many illegals across the country? What happened with all that? Google it.

But more to the here and now, who do you think is rebuilding New Orleans? Recent reports show a majority of the labor there is ALL illegal.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NG53F74SK1.DTL

But I think the Dept. Of Labor stats speak for themselves, along with articles from the local papers in the areas where these people live, and are employed.
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Old 02-15-2006, 10:18 AM   #112
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I don't have numbers to illustrate my point, but I will attempt to make it anyway.

The Federal Government, also makes tremendous amounts of money in 'unclaimed taxes'. Many illegal aliens use Social Security cards and Id's that are not their own. They use these to obtain employment, so they appear to be legal. Sometimes the numbers are simply fake, sometimes they are the numbers of deceased citizens.

When Tax time rolls around every year, any monies owed the employee, remain unclaimed. This allows illegal worker to stay under the radar, and helps Uncle Sam get MUCH Richer.

You do the Math..

That's alot of friggin money, no matter how you slice it. Money that is basically donated to the Federal Government, without any strings attached.

The Federal Government has also been recruiting soldiers in Mexico. Promising citizenship and benefits to these soldiers and their families, if they enlist. These Men receive less training than our American Soldiers do, but they are still shipped overseas with only a Rifle and and a "Combat Fighting 101" handbook. When they are Killed in Action, their families receive only the heartbreak of getting their loved one back in a bodybag. No military benefits of ANY kind, no proper military burial. No benefits for their spouse or children.

They get Jack and Shit for the sacrifice their sons made for a country that wasn't even their own.

Before anyone cries Foul, I met three families while I was in Mexico last year who were victim of this very scam from our government. It is truly despicable. All three of these mother's had to go farther into debt just to bury their sons, who died fighting in a war for the United States. They were promised the moon, and in return they received a corpse.

It's not right, and it's going on everyday under our very noses.

Let's look at the emotional side of things for a moment.

I speak fluent Spanish. I learned it from my Nanny, who was from El Salvador. She came to live with us when I was very small. My parents both owned their own businesses, and consequently were gone most of the time. This woman, Maria, raised me like her own child. During this time the very bloody Civil War in El Salvador was ongoing.

I grew up listening to stories of the Guerillas & the Government raids and massacres. Maria watched FIVE of her brothers shot to death in front of her and her family, for being suspected of harboring sympathizers. Maria's family were simple farmers, and had no ties to either side of the war. But the Government didn't care what the truth was, they gunned them down in cold blood because of a mere suspicion.

The fighting over there became so bad, that no one slept in beds anymore. Everyone slept on the floor, away from windows. This was to try and shield themselves from the nightly bombings and machine gun attacks from both the Government and the Guerillas. They ceased using public transportation for the same reasons. Everyone walked if they had somewhere to go. it was too risky to ride in a vehicle that could be bombed.

Maria and her baby sister also watched a Busload of Priests and Nuns get gunned down by the Government outside of her Church. Their only crime was giving the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament to all that attended the Church. Regardless of political affiliation or 'suspected' affiliation. The Priest and Nuns were then stripped of their Vestments, and left naked and dead in the street in front of the church.

This was an avergage day, for Maria.

So it takes little imagination to see why Maria finally decided to flee El Salvador.

It took her 3 MONTHS of Hellish conditions, walking through terrain that isn't hospitable even for the animals that live there. Swimming through rivers, fighting off predators, searching for food and water. She endured all of that, WILLINGLY to avoid going back to the Hell on Earth, that her country had become. That says a whole fucking lot. Imagine the motivation you would have to possess to embark upon that kind of a journey ON FOOT, knowing that the chances were good you would die along the way.

You'd have to be pretty godamn frightened of STAYING to be LESS AFRAID of GOING.

She made her choice, and lived through it.

Her Mother and Father weren't so lucky. They were caught in the crossfire of a gunbattle between the Guerillas and the Government after she left. According to Maria's Aunt, they were each shot more than Fifty times. They had to bury Pieces of them, because they were sliced into ribbons.

Her Baby sister was attacked and ***** by the Guerillas, she committed suicide not long afterwards because of the shame she felt.

What would Maria's story have been, if she had stayed?

And why I ask you, is it wrong that she fought to save her life?

Self-preservation is one of the most basic of Human Emotions. You can't turn it off. It is simply one of the driving forces that we as human beings, experience every day. When pushed to the limit of endurance, EVERYONE can be motivated to do dangerous and rash things to survive.

Everyone reading these words right now, could potentially be compelled to flee their homes if it meant the difference between Life or Death for them or their families.

It's easy to throw stones when you've never been a cornered animal, yourself.

Maria didn't flee El Salvador because she didn't love her Country, her Home. Maria fled El Salvador because she loved HERSELF more. She missed her Homeland very much, but she refused to let it be her Executioner.


I see no fault in that.

Many years later, Maria recived Amnesty and became a citizen of the United States.

But for me, her status was never in question.

She was a proud, strong, brave woman regardless of what a piece of paper said about her.

She overcame amazing odds to come to a place where she knew she would be SAFE.

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave..

Right?



Le Sigh...
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Old 02-15-2006, 04:38 PM   #113
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You're damn, skippy!

If everyone who's here illegally fought that hard to get over here I'd welcome them.
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Old 02-15-2006, 05:17 PM   #114
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There are plenty of legal citizens who are homeless, begging for change on street corners in every major us city, digging through trash to eat, that would jump at the chance to pick fruit or cotton, dig ditches, clean toilets, empty garbage, etc etc just to get themselves off the streets. granted, there are probably just as many homeless legals who would much rather beg for change instead of earn it. regardless. the point is, you can't say that there are no americans who wouldn't want those jobs.

why don't they have them?

that was a touching story EPS. honestly. i'm not being a smart-ass. Your friend went about it the right, honest way. it sucks that she went through what she had to go through in order to obtain a better life for herself, and it sucks that she couldn't have brought more of her family with her. but she wasn't trying to screw anyone. she went to work and eventually obtained her citizenship. and if more people, from where ever they come from, went about it in a similar manner, i wouldn't have any qualms with it at all. but everyone that comes across our borders doesn't have a horror story they're running from. they just want money. more money than they're getting where they're currently at. and they know they can get it here, practically handed to them.

let them keep the jobs they're doing here, if you're so certain that no one else would be willing to do them, (which is bull) but make them do it legally. put them in programs to obtain legal status, to earn their living and their keep legally, fairly, etc. then i don't care where they send their money. its theirs to do with as they choose.

the thing is that they don't want citizenship here. the majority of them. they know that if they went about it the legal way they wouldn't be able to make nearly as much money as they do now, or qualify for all the benefits they get. and they couldn't pack up and run back to mexico, or where ever, whenever they wanted. instead they'd have to pay into our various taxes like the rest of us do. that leaves a whole lot less to send back to mom and dad, or to the wife and kids, or whoever it is they're trying to support back home. plus, do you really, honestly believe that every one of them are really sending all of, or the bulk of their earnings back to their families? If they even have families?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty Purple Stars
Many illegal aliens use Social Security cards and Id's that are not their own. They use these to obtain employment, so they appear to be legal. Sometimes the numbers are simply fake, sometimes they are the numbers of deceased citizens.
schools have been doing the same thing for years. only they use ssn#'s, id's etc of of either students that had been enrolled there years before, and/or of dead people, in order to get more money, because they receive funds based on the number of total students they show currently enrolled. just another side note i was reminded about and thought i'd mention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty Purple Stars
The Federal Government has also been recruiting soldiers in Mexico. Promising citizenship and benefits to these soldiers and their families, if they enlist. These Men receive less training than our American Soldiers do, but they are still shipped overseas with only a Rifle and and a "Combat Fighting 101" handbook. When they are Killed in Action, their families receive only the heartbreak of getting their loved one back in a bodybag. No military benefits of ANY kind, no proper military burial. No benefits for their spouse or children.
My sister is a recruiter for the air force. just here in the states tho, never gone to mexico for it, or any other foreign country that i know of. but she's mentioned, briefly, some of the rules they're encouraged to bend, as recruiters, to encourage more people to join up. especially now, when all branches of the us military are at a supposed shortage of new recruits. (i think it's the army that currently has the most deficit). and sometimes it includes convincing them they won't be sent to some place like iraq, tho they aren't allowed to actually say anything like that word for word. a lot of things can be implied with careful wording and tact.
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Old 02-15-2006, 05:40 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostposts
Your figures don't include the wonderful "Federal Witholding" we pay. It's over and above the federal income tax. The social security tax and the medicare tax we pay, on average, amounts to 800.00 per 10,000.000 each year. (Rough estimate, looking at my own w2 form). Nor does it take into account state income taxes.
uhm, question. exactly what box are you looking at on that w2? because federal withholdings are in box 2. there's no other box for federal. unless you're possibly referring to some way that fed is divided up that's not shown on a w2. or maybe they look different in texas? which doesn't make sence because they've always been the same in all the other states i've lived in. the only thing that really differs is some
people pay local tax.
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Old 02-15-2006, 05:51 PM   #116
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ok, you're looking at all three figures combined, and compairing the total of ss and medicare to the total of fed. i think...
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Old 02-16-2006, 01:41 AM   #117
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Old 02-16-2006, 08:21 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E_P_S
The Federal Government has also been recruiting soldiers in Mexico. Promising citizenship and benefits to these soldiers and their families, if they enlist. These Men receive less training than our American Soldiers do, but they are still shipped overseas with only a Rifle and and a "Combat Fighting 101" handbook. When they are Killed in Action, their families receive only the heartbreak of getting their loved one back in a bodybag. No military benefits of ANY kind, no proper military burial. No benefits for their spouse or children.

They get Jack and Shit for the sacrifice their sons made for a country that wasn't even their own.
I'm still having a MAJOR problem with this. It's completely wrong to go to another country and recruit soldiers to die for us.That is fucking bullshit! Why don't we just pop over to Europe and see if we can recruit there as well? Fuckin' wankified pieces of sheepshit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ED
There are plenty of legal citizens who are homeless, begging for change on street corners in every major us city, digging through trash to eat, that would jump at the chance to pick fruit or cotton, dig ditches, clean toilets, empty garbage, etc etc just to get themselves off the streets. granted, there are probably just as many homeless legals who would much rather beg for change instead of earn it. regardless. the point is, you can't say that there are no americans who wouldn't want those jobs.

why don't they have them?

What? You mean the homeless people begging for change and collecting cans so they can get there next bottle of booze? You think they want honest work? I realize that all homeless aren't like that, but the ones I've seen(limited, I haven't interacted as much as EPS), just want money for booze or cigarettes. Do you really think people want to hire a homeless person to do those things(picking vegetables or fruit) in the first place when they can hire someone illegally that won't ask questions about fair pay? Or how many breaks they're allowed?

The people hiring aren't looking for Americans to hire, I think that you might think they are?
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Old 02-16-2006, 08:51 AM   #119
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EPS - I had a thread on that a while back. In fact, a majority of the men killed during the first year in Iraq were not even us citizens. They were all mexicans trying to get citizenship, and of course, were the ones put directly on the front lines before us citizens. Google it and read all the articles.

Also, anyone who has ever lived in LA has seen the groups of mexicans on the corners in the morning waiting to be picked up by whatever farmer, builder, or landscaper wants tohire them for the day. Hundreds along the streets every morning. Yet police don't arrest them, as hiring illegals is a way of life in California.

And finally, lets look at the big picture here. At the largest estimate, these 8 million - 15 million illegals cost the US a billion a year. I mean, even if you say they don't contribute anything, what I'm reading is a billion a year on the high end of estimates? Ok, well...

The US spends a billion on each stealth bomber it builds, and it has a few. It spends billions more each year on projects they start and never finish (i could list tonnes of these), it spends right now 30 billion a month in Iraq and Afgahanistan.

Not only that, Hallibuton has be caught out for wasting billions in various contracts in Iraq alone. I could continue with all the wasted billions we could cite, but you get the point.

Is one billion to better the lives of other human beings, families, 8-15 million of them, worth the cost of one plane? If the us government kept the friendly contracts and kickbacks off the taxpayers bill would they not have ten times the amount that would be needed to cover these people?

Is killing people worldwide worth more to the american government than bettering the lives of 8-15 million people who reside there, no matter what their status?

At the end of the day, these are people, humans, with mothers, daughters, sons, and fathers - like everyone else here. Is it worth depriving these people of seeking the same goal of having a good life for their family merely because they come from a different culture?

Thats the real question here, because at the end of the day, if anyone can afford a mere 'billion' to bring happiness and a better way of life to millions, you think that america would be able to.

*insert Ellis Island inscription here*
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:20 AM   #120
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Wow, Sternn, just a billion?

And all the fuckers in Downtown Houston could be putting money into the community instead of patting themselves on the back and giving each other raises.

But they've been caught, wonder how much of their money is going to lawyers?
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:45 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by CptSternn

At the end of the day, these are people, humans, with mothers, daughters, sons, and fathers - like everyone else here. Is it worth depriving these people of seeking the same goal of having a good life for their family merely because they come from a different culture?



*insert Ellis Island inscription here*
Well Sternn, you finally said something I wholeheartedly agree with.

And I stand by my earlier assertion, that EVERY one of us would do the SAME thing if we felt that our lives and our childrens lives would be bettered by fleeing to a country where they could be safe and have hope for a future.

As I said before, self-preservation is a basic human emotion. On our most Primal level, we seek to preserve ourselves. It is instinctual and it is a part of our humanity that is older than time itself.

Wolfie, yes I agree that our Federal Government should not be recruting outside of the United States. At the VERY LEAST these men deserve citizenship and benefits for their families if Killed in Action. Words cannot describe the Fury and the Sadness that I saw on the faces of the families I met whose children lost their lives, fighting a war that wasn't even theirs. If imigrants don't really want citizenship as ED claims, then why are these men placing themselves in the line of fire, in the HOPE that they will become United States citizens if they survive their tour of duty?

And WHY is the life of a Mexican Soldier worth LESS than the life of a US Soldier?

Why are they sent to the front lines with LESS training than our own soldiers receive?

How fucked up is that?

It seems to me that they are viewed as being 'disposable'.

Human Beings are NOT dispoasable, no matter what their nationality.

The Day Labor corners that Sternn speaks of, can be found all over the US. Particularly in the South. They stand and wait for people who need work done to pick them up, and take them somewhere to work for a day.

Since when did an HONEST days work for an HONEST days pay, become a bad thing?

No matter what kind of spin you want tp put on it, illegal immigrants perform jobs that MOST American's consider themselves to proud to perform. It's a fact. Most of the immigrants I have known in my life, work two or three jobs to care for their family. Their culture is rooted in the family nucleus. The family cares for the family. A lesson I think we as Americans, need to do a better job of learning. There is a reason these families stay close to each other. There is a reason why a Mother will leave her children and overcome incredible odds to reach a country where she can work and send money home to her kids.

In Tijuana alone the AVERAGE income is LESS than $75.00 a month.

You try and live on that.

And the really sad thing, is that contrary to popular belief, things ARE NOT any cheaper over there. Light bills, water bills, phone bills, rent is comparable to what you find in the states.

$75.00 a month

There just is no physical way to pay for ALL of your families needs, including food, on that kind of income. You just can't do it.

Medical Care? LOL Yeah right. There isn't any, unless you have money and lots of it.

If your kids get sick, oh well. If you get sick, too bad. If you need medicine, hold your breath and pray you pass out. You're not going to get it. Not without money.

And if you manage to make a little chunk of change, the Federales will pull you over and STEAL whatever money you have on your person. You don't argue with these guys, you just hand over whatever you have. And no, they don't just roll the tourists, they roll just about every person they pull over. Regardless of where they live. If you have cash in your wallet or purse, you can kiss it goodbye. And you BETTER not argue about it.

These same cops roll around town in Pickup Trucks with 50 Cal. Machine Guns in the back. You'd expect that kind of display in Columbia or Honduras, but it was suprising to see it in Mexico. Great big guns, and cops in full armored gear. 7 or 8 to a Truck.

The people there in many of the towns and cities are virtual prisoners. It's like Warsaw all over again. Raw sewage in the streets, running freely. Children playing in HUGE heaps of Rotting Garbage, because there is nowhere else to play. The criminals are basically unchecked, and manage to take, **** or murder anything or anyone that stands in their way. The people are held hostage by ALL of these elements, and have nowhere else to turn, but here.

What would you do?

I mean really think about it. What would YOU do, if you were forced to live like an animal?

Everyone can say " Well, just fix it.."

But how? How do you make a difference when you can't even feed and clothe yourself and your family? How do you rise up against your Oppressors when you're too weak to fight?

You don't. Which is EXACTLY the way most of the Governments like these want it.

A beaten people, are an obedient people.

When you lose the will to do anything but try to survive, you stop having the ability to fight back. You lose the vision that allows you to see the Hope of Change.

It's quite brilliant in a really sick way, and that same psychological conditioning is being played out in countries like Mexico, all over the world.

These people are NOT the enemy, they are who you and I MIGHT have been, if we had been born in different places.

It's really as simple as that.
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:21 PM   #122
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Sounds like you've lived a life of privilege.
Sounds like you're an assclown. I can't think of one person on these boards that's had it easy. Just because someone grew up with certain things doesn't mean they've got them now.
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:36 PM   #123
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[Lots of hot air]
[PWNAGE]
LOL. Oh man. I gotta talk to the Admins of this site. It never translates his name correctly like that when I quote him. Damnit!
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Old 02-17-2006, 06:37 AM   #124
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Great...can you suck out what's left of my life with your fake teeth? I'll pay you...
Why pay? I just pwned you for free.
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Old 02-17-2006, 05:49 PM   #125
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