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Old 04-25-2012, 11:47 AM   #1
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Saya, You're overdue

I detect a severe lack of vitamin "T"























While the image is horrific and offensive, is it not an apt metaphor?















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Old 04-25-2012, 01:37 PM   #2
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I'm always cautionary to use kinds of violent oppression as metaphors for another kind of oppression, particularly with kinds of oppressions I have no first hand experience of.
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:10 PM   #3
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It's not my metaphor. Someone on my FB linked it and I was curious as to what your reaction would be.

I'm glad that you have not sent me a box of spiders.

But more. I actually wanted to ask about stuff like this in the context of new clueless folks becoming more active in movements like OWS. How should a feminist respond to stuff like this, which isn't intentionally repressive, but still manages to cause a facepalm.

Plus, hey, trololo.
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:19 PM   #4
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Desp, we never argue anymore, I miss it D:

Personally I am of the opinion that doing this kind of thing just as you say will get more facepalms than anything else, or at worse trigger a survivor.

I think OWS particularly should shy away from doing this kind of thing. Not sure if you heard but apparently a few jackasses at the march for Trayvon Martin in New York were trying to make it about Occupy, saying it had more to do with classism than racism. I don't think it was long after that the PoC committee in Oakland left Occupy and started their own Decolonize group since they felt they weren't getting heard. I read an article a few weeks ago about a white prof saying that feminists shouldn't worry about women representation at Occupy discussions because gender and racial identity politics was invented by the FBI to divide the left. FEMINISM IS A CONSPIRACY.
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:29 PM   #5
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Hehehe sending a box of spiders.

I'm pretty put off by the image, not just as a feminist but also from the standpoint of someone who has worked with the victims of domestic abuse, both male and female. It is a metaphor that in some ways does work perhaps in a discussion but in that image it really does have the potential to be quite damaging, especially as people from the opposition respond, their words will not just be dismissive of OWS but of the seriousness of domestic violence. A lot of people think that it is an issue that everyone takes very seriously but from working in that field I know this is not the case, there is a huge percentage of people in power who either think it is something that doesn't require any more attention or are of the "if the victim doesn't like it she should just leave" mentality, as if it were just that simple.

OWS has also gained a reputation for being a white middle class men's movement that doesn't understand or care about issues faced by other groups, something like this certainly doesn't help that perception.
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:15 AM   #6
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Desp, we never argue anymore, I miss it D:

Personally I am of the opinion that doing this kind of thing just as you say will get more facepalms than anything else, or at worse trigger a survivor.

I think OWS particularly should shy away from doing this kind of thing. **Not sure if you heard but apparently a few jackasses at the march for Trayvon Martin in New York were trying to make it about Occupy, saying it had more to do with classism than racism.** I don't think it was long after that the PoC committee in Oakland left Occupy and started their own Decolonize group since they felt they weren't getting heard. I read an article a few weeks ago about a white prof saying that feminists shouldn't worry about women representation at Occupy discussions because gender and racial identity politics was invented by the FBI to divide the left. FEMINISM IS A CONSPIRACY.
I heard. It's not true.

I was at that march, (the Million Hoodies one) I was there WITH occupy in solidarity with the family of Trayvon Martin.

The only one who tried to make that March about Occupy was the author of that article. His coverage was MASSIVELY inaccurate as well as ignorant and irresponsible (So much so that I actually challenged him to a debate about the occupy movement but he didn't respond).

Dude admits in the article that he spent way more time playing Modern Warfare than being active, and accidentally points out that he's had a problem with occupy for a while and just now found an excuse to articulate it.

I was at that march. I was next to the largest contingent of occupiers. They were chanting "I am Trayvon Martin" with the rest of the crowd along with "don't shoot me don't hurt me, just skittles and iced tea" and the inclusive "we are the 99%".

Elon (the author) wrongly attributed the break-up of the marchers to Occupy there weren't enough of us to break up the march, we only had like 20-30 regular occupiers.. The NYPD broke us up, actually forcefully diverting 2 columns in 2 different directions. When we returned to to park they had shut down the subway due to a "suspicious package" and were set for mass-arrests.

Elon James White mentions none of this and instead spends the whole time slandering Occupy. His article was then the #1 result on google for the million Hoodie March, and it's original title was "How Occupy Co-opted the Million Hoodie March".

Elon did more to co opt that march than occupy ever could, and once again, everyone I saw was on-message and even if we weren't there simply were not enough of us to overwhelm the dialogue.

Elon had just never been involved in a political movement capable of bringing real change before. He even got some very solid advice from a longtime organizer about it, but completely misinterpreted what the guy was saying.

You really need to take what you read about Occupy with a WHOLE lot of salt. With few exceptions half the media doesn't have any understanding of how a lateral movement works, and the other half is actively and purposefully lying about us.
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:42 AM   #7
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I didn't read that article actually, I read it from black bloggers who were there and say that reflected their experience with occupiers.
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:05 AM   #8
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Just looked through the thread on racismschool's tumblr post about the Million Hoodies March and also noted that its not the first time OWS acted like that:

http://www.racialicious.com/2012/01/...matters-to-me/

It was also pretty funny to see Occupy All Streets say OWS was always against racism and a natural ally for the Million Hoodies Event...after blogging about how aboriginals have no right mentioning their oppression and should just start their own movement because as you put it, its not about our "pet issues".
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:10 AM   #9
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1) Can I see those blogs?

2) All I can say is that I was there too, and I did not have the experience they had. There are some dumbasses involved in OWS (as there are in any movement) and our lateral culture can lead them to be more extrovertedly dumbass.

However, It's massively fallacious to blame OWS for ONE dipshit who refused to put away his communist flag, and one girl who didn't realize that the march in question had sound permits. Crazy people exist, as do stupid people and sometimes they show up at our marches.

They also show up at other people's marches, but for some reason everyone seems set on attributing their crazy bullshit to the movement as a whole. I remember a very intelligent and well-spoken member of the sanitation workgroup was being interviewed at Zuccotti, as he was talking to the reporter a guy nearby took off his pants and started screaming about aliens. He tried to continue the interview but the reporter decided that pantless alien man would be a much better subject for an interview instead of "dedicated activist cleaning up the park".

As to directing marches I've never heard of OWS trying to direct other people's marches...which is weird.


2) I'm not familiar with Occupy All Streets. I know it's a Jay-Z T-Shirt slogan that has nothing to do with the movement, but I've never followed the tumbler or seen anyone link it. Is it out of NYC or some other occupation?
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:29 AM   #10
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OWS has also gained a reputation for being a white middle class men's movement that doesn't understand or care about issues faced by other groups, something like this certainly doesn't help that perception.
It's not an OWS image. It's from a syndicated political cartoonist who has nothing to do with the movement.

also:


http://www.officialoccupythehood.org/

uctp.blogspot.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-welcomes-indigenous.html

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/22130061

http://occupiedmedia.us/2011/12/taki...lock-by-block/

http://occupiedmedia.us/2012/03/occu...s-his-mission/

http://peopleslibrary.wordpress.com/...ry/decolonize/

It's a common media slur to say that OWS is all white males/ doesn't care about minority issues. Neither is true.
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:34 AM   #11
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Also: Just thought I'd point this out:

http://occupiedmedia.us/2012/02/a-mo...hostile-media/

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...In any movement that is multi-racial, there will be real problems to fix regarding race. These are good problems, because they come from the fact that a lot of different groups of people who normally wouldn’t work together are doing so now.

But the article in the Chronicle that supposedly showed that Occupy Oakland doesn’t connect with black folks was poor and unethical journalism. The paper quoted only two black folks; one said the answer is to tell other black folks to “Stop The Violence.” Okay. But the Chron didn’t interview any of the folks in the neighborhood around Gayla Newsome who was put back into her foreclosed home. They didn’t interview anyone from the neighborhood around 10th and Mandela, where the Tactical Action Committee has made a foreclosed Fannie Mae home into a community center with workshops for the community. They didn’t interview anyone involved with Occupy Oakland’s November 19 march, which was 2,000 strong and focused on school closures. They didn’t interview any of the many black union members who have worked with us. They didn’t interview anyone in the People Of Color Caucus, or anyone else who is black and works with Occupy Oakland.
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:13 PM   #12
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How has OWS addressed the concerns of non-whites? Where has that discourse come to?
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:28 PM   #13
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Dude, you yourself again, dismissed colonialization, racism and sexism as PET ISSUES. Because they don't matter if you as a white man from a privileged background don't feel oppressed by it.

Plenty of people had huge complaints from the start about harassment, sexual assault, discrimination and silencing.

http://www.racialicious.com/2012/03/...-hoodie-march/
http://www.newleftproject.org/index....ccupy_movement
http://www.occupypatriarchy.org/
http://chirpstory.com/li/5457
http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com...flections-nyc/

I have a hard time believe that a movement plagued with white privlege, Ron Paul wankers, neoliberals and reformers is being totally intersectional and there's no problems save for a few fringe crazies that no one seems to want to take accountability for. Its not just that there's a few bad apples, but the apparently good apples don't want to say shit or speak out when it happens. It always happens particularly when white people want to deny it happens, and attempt to tokenize and trot out "well we had a few speakers of colour therefore we are not racist."

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOMEONE PLEASE READ AUDRE LORDE.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:00 AM   #14
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However, It's massively fallacious to blame OWS for ONE dipshit who refused to put away his communist flag, and one girl who didn't realize that the march in question had sound permits. Crazy people exist, as do stupid people and sometimes they show up at our marches.
Also, this distinctly reminds me of when the government labels service men as rogues when they commit some kind of atrocity.

You have to take responsibility for everything that you create, not just the good things, but the bad as well. I understand that society as a whole generates these types of attitudes, but OCW as a whole needs to acknowledge that they exist within the movement because they are allowed to. That includes you, Despanan.

It's not the responsibility of people to overlook what you feel isn't there, because it's a very real thing to the rest of us. "Be more like a white middle class male." gets really, really old. It's YOUR responsibility to show that it's not there, and by not even taking the first step to acknowledge that racism, sexism, and homophobia are present within YOUR movement, you further alienate would-be supporters without your privilege.

If you don't acknowledge my issues and work to overcome them, how am I supposed be elevated to a position where I can work with you to overcome something we all face?
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:47 AM   #15
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Dude, you yourself again, dismissed colonialization, racism and sexism as PET ISSUES. Because they don't matter if you as a white man from a privileged background don't feel oppressed by it.
Yeah you're right and I was wrong. You know how I realized I was wrong? I WORKED hand in hand with minority activists AT Occupy Wall Street.

I dismissed feminism as a pet issue partially to troll you, partially because I hadn't realized how interconnected the struggles were, and partially because I was annoyed at your arm-chair activism (In this case, not overall).

You were talking like you were too afraid to come out because Occupy Newfoundland was all men, and then you bitched that Occupy wasn't doing enough for women and minority issues. Were you expecting these white clueless men to be educate themselves about the nuances of feminism and minority issues?

or to quote Ghandi: "You were maybe expecting someone else to liberate you?"

Occupy is a lateral movement Saya. You want change Saya? You want more OWS focus on women's issues? Get involved and do it yourself. I guarantee you, there will be people willing to listen to good ideas. There will be dumb people there too. There will be crazy people there, there will be clueless people there, but the vast majority will be eager to hear from you and others and everyone will agree that shit is fucked up and needs to change at a fundamental level.

Saya, whether you like it or not, Occupy is the best chance any of us have for affecting actual change. The establishment liberals won't help you beyond lip-service and minor concessions, and the conservatives want to actively oppress you.

Yes, there are some dumb people at Occupy. Yes, there are some dumb white men who are mad about he kinds of things that directly effect them - but guess what? Those same dumb white men are willing to listen to you and there IS minority representation, Occupy is diverse even for New York.

Or you know, you can let the news do your thinking for you, and wait for the establishment to make things safe for you to talk about feminism.

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Plenty of people had huge complaints from the start about harassment, sexual assault, discrimination and silencing.
Yes, I remember Andrew Breitbart shouting at us to "Stop ******". What a trustworthy individual.

There was a sexual assault at Zuccotti, and there was also some crime and some drug use. Guess what? A large part of this was because the NYPD was directing drunks, criminals, and addicts to OWS.

The fact that the attacks happened were horrible, but they have been blown out of proportion by a media intent on torpedoing the movement, specifically TO scare folks like you away Saya. Occupy does not have a "**** culture" Occupy is a microcosm of OUR culture. What occurred in Zuccotti was not something endemic to Occupy, it was a crime of opportunity.

http://www.racialicious.com/2012/03/...-hoodie-march/

I remember the kid in with the "Am i next" sign. I marched next to him and his mom. I also remember the cops lined up next to us, about 100 strong with zip-tie handcuffs.

I remember conversation after conversation with fellow protestors about how we were all dealing with the same oppression manifested in different ways.

http://www.occupypatriarchy.org/ <--- What OP can't deal with a fucking Troll? When dipshits accuse you of being an infiltrator you don't get butthurt about it you point out what fucking dipshits they are, dismiss them, and continue to make your case.

The twitter conversation is with Elon James White who started many of the bad narratives from this march. Once again, a cool dude, but not an experienced activist OR the best journalist, who by the way mocked a girl who tried to talk to him about patriarchy with the phrase "privilege gone wild". Just sayin'

http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com...flections-nyc/ <--- What I will say about this, is that there is an almost paranoid fear of co-option. The NYC council Progressive caucus (who I think are the politicians they're complaining about) is both diverse and has been increadibly helpful. They have stood with us when no one else would, and have put their bodies and freedom on the line for social justice. They were NOT trying to co-opt the march (or at least those actions are not consistent with my experience with them).

In any case Co-Option happens when you can't control your own message. The Million Hoodie March easily controlled it's message...that is except when it came to bitching about Occupy.

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I have a hard time believe that a movement plagued with white privlege, Ron Paul wankers, neoliberals and reformers is being totally intersectional and there's no problems save for a few fringe crazies that no one seems to want to take accountability for. Its not just that there's a few bad apples, but the apparently good apples don't want to say shit or speak out when it happens. It always happens particularly when white people want to deny it happens, and attempt to tokenize and trot out "well we had a few speakers of colour therefore we are not racist."
Okay, before I respond to this...How do you know what you are alleging is true Saya? How many times have you been out to Occupy? How many marches have you taken part in? How many occupiers do you personally know?
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:54 AM   #16
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:24 AM   #17
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Desp do you realize that you are being dismissive of someones concerns about whether OWS is a safe environment by telling them that they just need to go and get involved? You have the ability to go and be apart of the movement without having to worry about getting ***** but as a woman that is something that many of us actively try to avoid every day, so naturally we are going to be pretty hesitant to go and join a crowd of people where we have heard that such things are happening.

I can also speak of my experience with Occupy Norfolk, I know it isn't necessarily the same where you are but you have to look at the whole, not just your immediate surroundings, I went once and I will never go back. It was not an inclusive environment, dissenting opinions were outright ignored, and I was treated like a dumb little girl who just went down there because my boyfriend wanted to go, even though the opposite was true. Jake was treated far better than I was and his opinions were given infinitely more consideration, even when he was basically repeating what I had just said, even after it was made clear that it was his first protest and that I, on the other hand, had not only been politically outspoken for a while but have been a founding member of a group that successfully got truly meaningful legislation passed by the state. But no, all I was good for was holding a damn sign and agreeing with what the men said was important.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:40 AM   #18
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Didn't you know, Sol? Those aren't true occupiers.
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:50 AM   #19
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I like how you ignore that Occupy would tell the rrape victims not to go to the police. Awesomesauce.

And the twitter convo goes way back before Elon, when women were live tweeting from the march. And when we complain people like you try to silence us and tell us its all happening in our head or just a few rogues.

But yeah, minorities and women are just paranoid fucks who swallow the media's message, right? Because you have black friends and that automatically means you can't be racist. Because people of colour found it so hard to get their voices heard that they had to start their own groups, that somehow proves you're not racist?
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Old 04-27-2012, 10:58 AM   #20
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But yeah, minorities and women are just paranoid fucks who swallow the media's message, right? Because you have black friends and that automatically means you can't be racist. Because people of colour found it so hard to get their voices heard that they had to start their own groups, that somehow proves you're not racist?
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:50 AM   #21
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I like how you ignore that Occupy would tell the rrape victims not to go to the police.
I didn't ignore it. I wasn't there so I can't comment on it. IF that is true, that's messed up, but once again reporters @ Zuccotti have a nasty habit of finding the craziest "spokesperson" thy can, and having them speak for the whole movement. They also have a nasty habit of showing up with a pre-attainted story and prompting occupiers to say things that fit that story.

The way I heard about the guy who was doing sexual assaults was that he WAS pointed out to the police on multiple occasions as someone who was behaving in a shady/criminal manner and the police did nothing. If this is true, this could have been for many reasons (not the least of which that the police sent him to occupy specifically TO disrupt the camp) but either way my impression of the events, based upon what I have heard from those who WERE there was that occupiers were FORCED to deal with it themselves because the police refused to.

Quote:
And the twitter convo goes way back before Elon, when women were live tweeting from the march. And when we complain people like you try to silence us and tell us its all happening in our head or just a few rogues.
Silence "us"? Were you out there, or are you just reading tweets and repeating a narrative that has been spread specifically by the mass media AS a smear.

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But yeah, minorities and women are just paranoid fucks who swallow the media's message, right? Because you have black friends and that automatically means you can't be racist. Because people of colour found it so hard to get their voices heard that they had to start their own groups, that somehow proves you're not racist?
Saya...I've got to say this.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Like, you right now sound as clueless as I probably did when I first came on here complaining about anarchists.

Do you want me to acknowledge that there are problems with how minorities see occupy? YES. There are problems. Are occupiers sometimes clueless, insensitive, sexist, racist or straight-up crazy?

YES. This is true.

However, the narrative that you have latched onto is not an accurate representation of Occupy.

The spokescouncil meetings I have been to are facilitated by women and minorities. Many of the primary working group facilitators are women, the teach-ins are facilitated by minorities, there is a significant minority presence at Zoccotti, at union square, at OWS, Occupy queens, Occupy Bushwich, Parents for Occupy, Occu-Evolve, Women of Occupy, the list goes on.

Our GA is based upon consensus, not majority rule. If you watch the tweets which cover the GA you'll find that because of this occupy actually slowes itself down specifically SO that everyone and every voice is heard and represented.

I'm sorry I can't go into more detail now. I'm mobile and ridiculously busy, but I'll elaborate more when I get to a computer.

For now, I can only say: welcome to a lateral movement Saya. Welcome to a popular movement in practice. It's messy. It's wrongheaded. It's hasty. It's ignorant. These people aren't academics. They haven't read the books you've read. They're young and pissed off and disenfranchised and they aren't used to being outside of their bubble.

But guess what? They're also open-minded, ready to learn, and ready to put their bodies and freedom on the line for, among other things, YOUR ideals - And unlike every other progressive movement you've known, they actually have a shot at bringing about some fundamental change.

This is what happens when you try to change a culture in a meaningful way
Saya. It's not safe, it's not sanitized, and no one is going to do YOUR work for you.

You have problems with Occupy? Go out to Occupy, seemif your impressions are correct, and if so, change Occupy. You will be amazed at how easy it is, and how well Occupiers respond to someone who knows their shit.

Or, you know, you could sit here online and bitch at me about it to me, and wait for establishment academics to yet again be ignored and marginalized.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:04 PM   #22
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I have been to occupy, couldn't get a word in in a group filled with white dudes, and online its the same. In a discussion about race, YOUVE BEEN IGNORING VERSUS. The black guy in this convo. When talking about race, you totally side step the only person of colour in this discussion so you can talk to a white person about how you're so inclusive.

And I like how you act that even though I'm not involved in Occupy I don't belong to a collective or activist movement and am just a dumbass who doesn't know how these things work. I've seen white supremacy everwhere, in Occupy, in Rebelles, in LGBTQ groups. Occupy is not special.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:19 PM   #23
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And speaking of the dumbass things you would say about capitalism and anarchism, isn't what changed your mind was experiencing what its like to be working class? You're a white dude who comes from a middle class family who could support him even when he dabbled in being working poor. You were willing to turn the other way when it came to economic oppression because you directly didn't feel oppressed.

The sad thing is, you can't experience being a woman or being black, so are you going to continue to be a dipshit about oppressions you don't expereince due to your privilege, or are you actually going to keep your mouth shut when those who aren't privileged like you are talking about their oppression, instead of saying that because everything is hunky dory for you and because you don't recognize racism and sexism when you see it, we must be making it up?
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:42 PM   #24
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I have been to occupy, couldn't get a word in in a group filled with white dudes, and online its the same.
Think this might have to do with the fact that you're a quiet, unassuming, unaggressive individual?

Shit Saya, the whole reason I troll you is to get you to speak up about this shit.

You're WELCOME.

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In a discussion about race, YOUVE BEEN IGNORING VERSUS. The black guy in this convo. When talking about race, you totally side step the only person of colour in this discussion so you can talk to a white person about how you're so inclusive.
I'm sorry, I had to take my girlfriend to the hospital.

I am sitting in the waiting room right now dealing with your assumptions.

I have not yet responded to Versus because I want to give a conversation with him the time and consideration he deserves because it's important to me.

But yeah, maybe you're right and I'm just a white supremacist.

Quote:
And I like how you act that even though I'm not involved in Occupy I don't belong to a collective or activist movement and am just a dumbass who doesn't know how these things work. I've seen white supremacy everwhere, in Occupy, in Rebelles, in LGBTQ groups. Occupy is not special.
1) I said you were ignorant about occupy. I never said that you were ignorant about activism.

2) If "occupy is not special" then why in the blue fuck are you leveling these charges as if they are something endemic to Occupy?

Now if you'll excuse me, the nurse just called me back. I'll play with you later.
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:06 PM   #25
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Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


-Breathin, Tupac.
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