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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 10-13-2010, 12:39 PM   #1
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Angry To my fellow Coloradans RE: Amendment 62

So, again my dears we have yet another ill-conceived person-hood amendment.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.ph...dment_62_(2010)

Amendment 62 is an effort to extend legal rights to all humans "from the beginning of the biological development of that human being".

I'm not even sure exactly what that is supposed to mean... half of a person in the form of an egg develops inside a baby girl when she is still developing in the womb herself... the other half sperm, are made and reabsorbed on a regular basis anyway...

If they mean fertilization it is pretty much amendment 48 from last election, all over again.

One of the big problems with this sort of legislation, is that it severely limits a woman's ability to make decisions over her own pregnancy, if a woman's decisions are disagreed with, she can be taken to court and forced into situations that SHE disagrees with.

This sort of thing happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X4_p3yAC8

We can't give fetuses legal rights without compromising the rights of the mother, as they occupy the same body.

Thoughts?
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Old 10-13-2010, 01:04 PM   #2
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This is just an anti-abortion bill. I doubt it'll be put into effect.
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:20 PM   #3
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adoption is a plot bi the nwo to maek us less able 2 resist them when they come.
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:47 PM   #4
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It will not be put into effect if it gets voted down.... These sorts of bills have proven to be detrimental to the rights of pregnant women.

...goku... your comment has little/nothing to do with this... come on kid... stay on topic... I'm sure you could if you try really hard and put your mind to it.
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:01 PM   #5
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Ah, fuck. This is a very difficult thing for me because, as with many things, I can see merit in both arguments. I guess it comes down to which pisses me off the most, I think.

On one hand, it pisses me off when women just don't want to take responsibility for being a dumb fuck. If you don't want a child, either A) do everything you can to prevent it knowing fucking full well that accidents can still happen, or B) come to term and give the child up for adoption. Not every abortion is legitimate.

On the other, sometimes the reason for wanting to terminate a pregnancy can be justified, such as the health of a mother. Sometimes it makes sense to prioritize the life of people, but in a situation where the only end state from either course of action is that likely one of the two will die, and possibly both, you really ethically can't.

I think the ideal solution is a list of certain, unexemptible conditions in which abortion is or is not legal. I say that because of the relatively short time between discovery of pregnancy and the possible result of a decision making process.

Also. I don't like Colorado right now. It's starting to get cold, again. About this time of year, I start to wish I enjoyed the summer more.
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Old 10-14-2010, 09:39 AM   #6
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It will not be put into effect if it gets voted down.... These sorts of bills have proven to be detrimental to the rights of pregnant women.

...goku... your comment has little/nothing to do with this... come on kid... stay on topic... I'm sure you could if you try really hard and put your mind to it.
what? i amm on topic. it's simple: the NWO want's 2 trick us into killing our babiess o that when they invade we don thave the resarces to fightt hem.

u need ppl 2 win a war.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:56 AM   #7
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Ah, fuck. This is a very difficult thing for me because, as with many things, I can see merit in both arguments. I guess it comes down to which pisses me off the most, I think.

On one hand, it pisses me off when women just don't want to take responsibility for being a dumb fuck. If you don't want a child, either A) do everything you can to prevent it knowing fucking full well that accidents can still happen, or B) come to term and give the child up for adoption. Not every abortion is legitimate.

On the other, sometimes the reason for wanting to terminate a pregnancy can be justified, such as the health of a mother. Sometimes it makes sense to prioritize the life of people, but in a situation where the only end state from either course of action is that likely one of the two will die, and possibly both, you really ethically can't.

I think the ideal solution is a list of certain, unexemptible conditions in which abortion is or is not legal. I say that because of the relatively short time between discovery of pregnancy and the possible result of a decision making process.

Also. I don't like Colorado right now. It's starting to get cold, again. About this time of year, I start to wish I enjoyed the summer more.
This isn't so much about the legality of abortion, as it is about severely limiting a womans choices during pregnancy, there are more decisions in and about a pregnancy than weather or not to terminate it. And if a tough decision comes up regarding a pregnancy, I think that a woman and her family are in a better position to make those decisions than the courts.

On top of that... giving legal person-hood to the unborn can cause weird and traumatic legal problems for a woman who's pregnancy has gone awry for one reason or another... things like miscarriages and still births could be followed with manslaughter or murder charges, I wish I were exaggerating but there is precedence.

This link (also in the original post) gives some examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3X4_p3yAC8
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Old 10-14-2010, 02:54 PM   #8
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I saw it, but I think the video was intended to be an ultimatum in argument of why even anti-abortion supporters should not support Person hood. I also think KontanKarite hit the nail on the head, so I didn't feel the need to address it earlier. But here goes.

I can't imagine the kind of mindset that attempts to justify forcing a woman to have a c-section, or making the claim that a family's ethical/moral decisions concerning themselves are somehow invalid or less important. It's retarded to pretend doctors are also social workers, and that their personal opinions and beliefs have any relevance to their purpose. I disagree with a lot of the things that I do, but I still do my fucking job, you know?
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Old 10-14-2010, 04:38 PM   #9
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So are you arguing apathy? If you are, I don't really have much of a rebuttal for you.

I think that Kotan touched on one small facet of this issue but misses the messy complexity of it.

It may have been written for the purposes of denying women access to legal, safe abortions... however the consequences of this vague definition of legal person-hood can and probably will be used to abuse the rights of women to decisions over what happens to their own bodies, what sort of birth plans they can choose, where they can/can't deliver, vaginal births after c-section, intrusive investigations over still births and miscarriages.

I don't know if reproduction is an issue for you yet, but it is far more subtle than most people realize.

There is a definite hard line that really helps to eliminate this tangled mess of soft and blurred lines, its called birth.
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:51 PM   #10
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So are you arguing apathy? If you are, I don't really have much of a rebuttal for you.
Not really. I was stating indecision concerning abortion, and I agree with you that a vague definition of person-hood would be exploited. I think what I was trying to get across was that the amendment needs a lot of refinement, so it's not ready to be voted for yet. It's pretty obvious which direction that refinement is going, though.

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I don't know if reproduction is an issue for you yet, but it is far more subtle than most people realize.
I don't have children. I think that fact alone is admission enough that I don't have the slightest clue about the complexities.

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There is a definite hard line that really helps to eliminate this tangled mess of soft and blurred lines, its called birth.
I laughed a little when I read this. It makes me wonder how this became such a hotly debated issue from such a simpler concept.
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:09 PM   #11
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Not really. I was stating indecision concerning abortion, and I agree with you that a vague definition of person-hood would be exploited. I think what I was trying to get across was that the amendment needs a lot of refinement, so it's not ready to be voted for yet. It's pretty obvious which direction that refinement is going, though.

Jah.... its on the ballot though...
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:36 PM   #12
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Jah.... its on the ballot though...
Pretty much. It'll be okay, though. 48 lost by over 70%. The difference between 48 and 62 is a change of the word "fertilization" to "biological development," and a promotional campaign that compares fetuses to American slaves. I don't know why anyone would think that's clever.
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:49 PM   #13
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We're talking about a country whose right-wing doesn't tire in emphasizing Obama's second name as an argument.
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Old 10-14-2010, 08:12 PM   #14
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Touche. -_-;
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:43 PM   #15
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We're talking about a country whose right-wing doesn't tire in emphasizing Obama's second name as an argument.
I resent that. I have enjoyed Obama being President (mostly because it has proven Democrats cannot balance the budget). Not all Republicans are pro-life (they are only when they want people to vote for them). So! I hope you take YOUR Narrow-Mindedness elsewhere.
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:46 PM   #16
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Shut the fuck up, catch.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:31 AM   #17
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I resent that. I have enjoyed Obama being President (mostly because it has proven Democrats cannot balance the budget). Not all Republicans are pro-life (they are only when they want people to vote for them). So! I hope you take YOUR Narrow-Mindedness elsewhere.
BAHAHAHA! I hope you realize that the pro-choice Republicans are VASTLY outnumbered by the pro-life ones, and are under such pressure to conform to the party line that they don't get that much chance to voice their opinion on the matter.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:54 AM   #18
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Nobody was being narrow-minded. What Alan said is an indisputable fact to express his point that even people who do not appeal to common sense get an equal vote, and that 62 could pass anyway. The relevance is that anti-abortion laws are mostly conceived of by the country's right wing as a whole. If you want to argue that, you're an idiot. No, not everybody is black and white, but that doesn't matter because there is not a major "In-between" party.

In fact, the point of the thread is an argument that even those who are pro-life should be opposed to 62. It has nothing to do with left wing vs right wing.
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:09 AM   #19
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Ah, fuck. This is a very difficult thing for me because, as with many things, I can see merit in both arguments. I guess it comes down to which pisses me off the most, I think.

On one hand, it pisses me off when women just don't want to take responsibility for being a dumb fuck. If you don't want a child, either A) do everything you can to prevent it knowing fucking full well that accidents can still happen, or B) come to term and give the child up for adoption. Not every abortion is legitimate.

On the other, sometimes the reason for wanting to terminate a pregnancy can be justified, such as the health of a mother. Sometimes it makes sense to prioritize the life of people, but in a situation where the only end state from either course of action is that likely one of the two will die, and possibly both, you really ethically can't.

I think the ideal solution is a list of certain, unexemptible conditions in which abortion is or is not legal. I say that because of the relatively short time between discovery of pregnancy and the possible result of a decision making process.

Also. I don't like Colorado right now. It's starting to get cold, again. About this time of year, I start to wish I enjoyed the summer more.
Versus, this is a horrible way of looking at the issue. Thing is, dude, is that accidents DO happen. Think about how expensive it is to even afford an abortion. It's just easier to get on the pill and use condoms than it is to fork over a few C notes for an abortion every time you end up getting knocked up.

It's quite simple, really. Leave abortion unquestionably legal no matter what. Seriously, how many women out there do you think actually consider abortion to be a viable means of birth control? How many women out there do you think can actually afford abortion as a means of birth control?

To assume that people are irresponsible with birth control and that they shouldn't have an abortion as a last resort is absolutely asinine. Seriously, what part of having irresponsible people have to give birth to an orphan even remotely a good idea? Guess who has to pay the bills on giving birth to the child. The person who would have been better off getting the abortion.
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:48 AM   #20
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Ah, fuck. This is a very difficult thing for me because, as with many things, I can see merit in both arguments. I guess it comes down to which pisses me off the most, I think.

On one hand, it pisses me off when women just don't want to take responsibility for being a dumb fuck. If you don't want a child, either A) do everything you can to prevent it knowing fucking full well that accidents can still happen, or B) come to term and give the child up for adoption. Not every abortion is legitimate.
YES. Because we all know that women LOVE abortions and will do absolutely ANYTHING to get one.

Birth control? Fuck birth control! Nothing compares to the sheer ecstasy of cold steel instruments dragging deceased sanguine feti from a woman's cervix. Nothing compares to the hot buzz of fluorescent lights and the snap of latex gloves as a stranger in a labcoat tears a parasite from your body. It's like popping a pimple, only that pimple has eyes, a heartbeat, and loves you.

GOD I'm getting hot just thinking about it. I'm probably gonna go knock my girlfriend up tonight just so I can jam a coat hanger up her vag in a month's time.

That's it. Woman have all the luck. I want an abortion. I want doctors to jam a fetus inside my colon, and tear it out with a pair of hot dog tongs. One isn't enough! I want MORE abortions! I want to have POWER ABORTIONS! I want to chug red-bull while an assembly line of medical professionals choke off the light of life growing inside of me. I want bathe in the blood of the unborn!

You'd better hope you pass a law to stop me Versus, because NOTHING short of federal prosecution is going to stop me from alternately cultivating/murdering generation after generation of my offspring, and I will spend, every waking moment of my life fighting to make abortion not only legal, but MANDITORY. Every woman alive will have to have at least 5 abortions before she can have a child, it will be like subway stamps, only with potential people instead of cold cuts.
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:55 AM   #21
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OMG, I just came so hard!
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:56 AM   #22
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I am the Abortionator (c.)
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:57 AM   #23
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Let's watch Hot Vag/Cold Steel tonight. Then I can watch you impregnate your girl and help you rip the fetus out later! Hell yeah. You know how to get my engine revving.
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:30 PM   #24
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I love you guys so much. I might just get an abortion to celebrate.
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:44 PM   #25
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Abortions... just... GIVEN EM AWAY!

Let's change Halloween to Abortioween!!!
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