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Old 12-13-2006, 10:58 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
Please, without using gothic stupidity/logic, explain to me what makes you part of a 'sub-culture' dressing the same, writing bad poetry, believing in empty-headed philosophies and disrespecting sovereignty isn't enough to call anything a sub-culture.

A sub-culture is like the mormons. Are you a moron? I mean mormon?
I don't write bad poetry, I write bad scripts.

I believe that Goth is a sub-culture. Especially in Los Angeles, where it's fairly popular. Unlike most music styles, the term "goth" includes other things besides music. It also includes Art, Film, Fashion, Literature, and several other different forms of creative expression (as you will find in this board). It all, of course, falls under the interests of the spooky and macabre.

Out here, all of my friends are a part of it, all of their friends are a part of it, and so on and so forth. Thus creating a community that has much in common.

If you need a definition of what a culture is, here:

Culture (n.): the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group

Sounds pretty accurate, don't you think?
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:59 PM   #102
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If you're so opposed to what this website is about, why are you still here?

Please try to be creative with your answer. You're starting to become a tad dull.
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:07 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Mick Ignis
I don't write bad poetry, I write bad scripts.

I believe that Goth is a sub-culture. Especially in Los Angeles, where it's fairly popular. Unlike most music styles, the term "goth" includes other things besides music. It also includes Art, Film, Fashion, Literature, and several other different forms of creative expression (as you will find in this board). It all, of course, falls under the interests of the spooky and macabre.

Out here, all of my friends are a part of it, all of their friends are a part of it, and so on and so forth. Thus creating a community that has much in common.

If you need a definition of what a culture is, here:

Culture (n.): the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group

Sounds pretty accurate, don't you think?
You have a habit of leaving out details of your definitions, it also has to distinguish you from others.

a. the cultural values and behavioral patterns distinctive of a particular group in a society.
b. a group having social, economic, ethnic, or other traits distinctive enough to distinguish it from others within the same culture or society.

--

I still cannot see how this qualifies 'goths' as a subculture anymore than a 'thug,' or those other atrocious high-school cliques. Also, culture requires the same religious beliefs, and no goth has the same religious beliefs, ergo you are not a sub-culture. According to the psychology definition at least, that's what makes a culture. A society is built on secular existence, a culture is built upon religious beliefs. Many dictionaries will say otherwise, but from a psychological point of view, that's what makes a culture in the first place. Of course many dictionaries also say that theories are speculations, when we know that in the scientific sense it's virtually a law of the universe.

So you really can't use the dictionary in this sense, it's wrong by a good margin.
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:15 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
Also, culture requires the same religious beliefs, and no goth has the same religious beliefs, ergo you are not a sub-culture. According to the psychology definition at least, that's what makes a culture. A society is built on secular existence, a culture is built upon religious beliefs. Many dictionaries will say otherwise, but from a psychological point of view, that's what makes a culture in the first place. Of course many dictionaries also say that theories are speculations, when we know that in the scientific sense it's virtually a law of the universe.

So you really can't use the dictionary in this sense, it's wrong by a good margin.
As you said yourself, you're talking from a psychological point of view. From a more anthropological point of view religion is not a pre-requisite. Malaysia is home to whole heap of different religions and races, but the nation is still bound by one culture, defined simply by their way of life. The world doesn't only work through narrow definitions, if you'd care to actually take a look around.

And besides, goth has been known as a subculture for decades. No matter how much you argue against it, people will still think of it as one.
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:16 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
You have a habit of leaving out details of your definitions, it also has to distinguish you from others.

a. the cultural values and behavioral patterns distinctive of a particular group in a society.
b. a group having social, economic, ethnic, or other traits distinctive enough to distinguish it from others within the same culture or society.

--

I still cannot see how this qualifies 'goths' as a subculture anymore than a 'thug,' or those other atrocious high-school cliques. Also, culture requires the same religious beliefs, and no goth has the same religious beliefs, ergo you are not a sub-culture. According to the psychology definition at least, that's what makes a culture. A society is built on secular existence, a culture is built upon religious beliefs. Many dictionaries will say otherwise, but from a psychological point of view, that's what makes a culture in the first place. Of course many dictionaries also say that theories are speculations, when we know that in the scientific sense it's virtually a law of the universe.

So you really can't use the dictionary in this sense, it's wrong by a good margin.
This is the first time I've ever heard someone call the dictionary wrong. So nothing can be a culture without having the same religious beliefs? Then what's the difference between a culture and a religion?

Regardless, we call it a subculture, others not involved with us call it a subculture, books written about goth call it a subculture, and any news report I've ever seen refers to Goth as a subculture. So the title sticks. You have a lot of people to convince that it shouldn’t be defined as such.
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:49 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero
As you said yourself, you're talking from a psychological point of view. From a more anthropological point of view religion is not a pre-requisite. Malaysia is home to whole heap of different religions and races, but the nation is still bound by one culture, defined simply by their way of life. The world doesn't only work through narrow definitions, if you'd care to actually take a look around.

And besides, goth has been known as a subculture for decades. No matter how much you argue against it, people will still think of it as one.
Just like people will think a dollar is money.
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:06 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick Ignis
This is the first time I've ever heard someone call the dictionary wrong. So nothing can be a culture without having the same religious beliefs? Then what's the difference between a culture and a religion?

Regardless, we call it a subculture, others not involved with us call it a subculture, books written about goth call it a subculture, and any news report I've ever seen refers to Goth as a subculture. So the title sticks. You have a lot of people to convince that it shouldn’t be defined as such.
Well, you tell me, am I wrong about what I said about a theory? If I am, then the dictionary is always right. The dictionary isn't the be all end all in many cases, especially when it doesn't explain certain things.
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:12 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
Well, you tell me, am I wrong about what I said about a theory? If I am, then the dictionary is always right. The dictionary isn't the be all end all in many cases, especially when it doesn't explain certain things.
If you're speaking in theory, of course there's no way to say you are wrong. However, you argued that goth is not a culture, when it has been proven that is by both the dictionary and popular belief. The Dictionary can't explain everything, but it does state the meaning behind words.
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:42 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Mick Ignis
If you're speaking in theory, of course there's no way to say you are wrong. However, you argued that goth is not a culture, when it has been proven that is by both the dictionary and popular belief. The Dictionary can't explain everything, but it does state the meaning behind words.
Well tell me, what seperates me from being a goth? I do not consider myself a 'goth' but I share some 'beliefs' with you. Does that make me a goth?
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:31 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
Well tell me, what seperates me from being a goth? I do not consider myself a 'goth' but I share some 'beliefs' with you. Does that make me a goth?
Depends. If you share the same interests and somewhat indulge yourself in them, then you might be considered one. There is a difference between having an interest in dark-related things and being a goth. Usually goth's create a dark, mysterious, and somewhat romantic atmosphere in which they live their lives. They dress the part daily, often decorate their homes accordingly, and somewhat style their life around their interests. We find comfort in it. It's a lifestyle.

It's really up to you though, whether you want to be labeled goth. No one can force the title upon you. Some of our most respected musical founders have refused to call themselves goth, even if the term does describe their music.

It's very descriptive though. When I tell someone that I’m goth, it gives them a quick idea of the type of things I am interested in and the sort of person I am.
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:38 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Mick Ignis
Depends. If you share the same interests and somewhat indulge yourself in them, then you might be considered one. There is a difference between having an interest in dark-related things and being a goth. Usually goth's create a dark, mysterious, and somewhat romantic atmosphere in which they live their lives. They dress the part daily, often decorate their homes accordingly, and somewhat style their life around their interests. We find comfort in it. It's a lifestyle.

It's really up to you though, whether you want to be labeled goth. No one can force the title upon you. Some of our most respected musical founders have refused to call themselves goth, even if the term does describe their music.

It's very descriptive though. When I tell someone that I’m goth, it gives them a quick idea of the type of things I am interested in.
I still do not understand what is the way to identify a 'goth.' I do appreciate angst, and the macabre, but it does not make me part of your sub-culture, because I also respect the power of optimism, and hope.

I cannot dress the part either, and there is hardly anything romantic about the 'gothic' sub-culture. If anything, I get kind of sick when I hear that, because their version of romance is more worn than a 5 dollar hooker.

I find romance to be of art, mind, and philosophy, not crazy bondage pants, or listening to the same music, or some sort of psychotic notion that there are demons in your house.

Trust me, I've met a lot of 'goths,' and I don't think they understand romance on the slightest, unless we are talking of the romantic movement of poetry headed by Lord Byron, Percy Shelley, etc. Then they really don't know.
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Old 12-14-2006, 02:07 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
I still do not understand what is the way to identify a 'goth.' I do appreciate angst, and the macabre, but it does not make me part of your sub-culture, because I also respect the power of optimism, and hope.
You know, I have no idea where that stereotype comes from. I've been involved with the scene for years and I've never noticed any of the hopelessly depressed goth's people like talking about so much. Quiet the opposite really, all the Goth's I’ve met have very upbeat attitudes, a great sense of humor, and are much less vulnerable to criticism than the average person (most of the time poking fun at themselves).

In high school, none of us were angsty. We were very happy with ourselves. The insecure ones who seemed to be moody all the time were the more mainstream cheerleaders and jocks, who always strived to adapt and fit in with whatever the current trends were.

We may give off the depressing image, but it's just not the case. Take a look around the forum and try to find a person who's hopelessly depressed. Everyone seems pretty happy to me. If we weren't happy with ourselves, why would we continue doing what we're doing? We are human, and nobody likes being sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
I cannot dress the part either, and there is hardly anything romantic about the 'gothic' sub-culture. If anything, I get kind of sick when I hear that, because their version of romance is more worn than a 5 dollar hooker.

I find romance to be of art, mind, and philosophy, not crazy bondage pants, or listening to the same music, or some sort of psychotic notion that there are demons in your house.
That's not what I'm talking about. Those are all, once again, false stereotypes. The goth relationships I've seen in my experience are extremely powerful. The couple is never afraid to show their affection for each other, and do indeed share a sense of art, beauty, mind, and soul. The goth image revolves around a lot of mystery and a sense of eternity (both expressed with the afterlife and immortality). I have friends who have been together for over 10 years, and are no less in love than the day they started dating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
Trust me, I've met a lot of 'goths,' and I don't think they understand romance on the slightest, unless we are talking of the romantic movement of poetry headed by Lord Byron, Percy Shelley, etc. Then they really don't know.
I've never had that kind of experience out here. Maybe you've run into the wrong people, or maybe I just need to travel more, but the romantic nature I am talking about does take a lot form Byron, Shelley, Poe, and Shakespeare.

Take a better look at the community. You seem to have a lot of misconceptions.
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Old 12-14-2006, 02:19 AM   #113
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You know, I have no idea where that stereotype comes from. I've been involved with the scene for years and I've never noticed any of the hopelessly depressed goth's people like talking about so much. Quiet the opposite really, all the Goth's I’ve met have very upbeat attitudes, a great sense of humor, and are much less vulnerable to criticism than the average person (most of the time poking fun at themselves).

In high school, none of us were angsty. We were very happy with ourselves. The insecure ones who seemed to be moody all the time were the more mainstream cheerleaders and jocks, who always strived to adapt and fit in with whatever the current trends were.

We may give off the depressing image, but it's just not the case. Take a look around the forum and try to find a person who's hopelessly depressed. Everyone seems pretty happy to me. If we weren't happy with ourselves, why would we continue doing what we're doing? We are human, and nobody likes being sad.
I enjoy sorrow, it reminds me that I am alive. I have a deep affinity with suffering, and pain, more so than the cliche. I find that ritually inducing such things reminds me that there is an opposite to all things in this world, and if I can feel such pain I can feel such joy as well. Still, something I experiment with from time to time.



Quote:
That's not what I'm talking about. Those are all, once again, false stereotypes. The goth relationships I've seen in my experience are extremely powerful. The couple is never afraid to show their affection for each other, and do indeed share a sense of art, beauty, mind, and soul. The goth image revolves around a lot of mystery and a sense of eternity (both expressed with the afterlife and immortality). I have friends who have been together for over 10 years, and are no less in love than the day they started dating.
There are many people who love people very much too. Many people who exemplify all of this. I still find that the 'gothic subculture' is a very pretentious group of loners/outcasts and attention seekers.



Quote:
I've never had that kind of experience out here. Maybe you've run into the wrong people, or maybe I just need to travel more, but the romantic nature I am talking about does take a lot form Byron, Shelley, Poe, and Shakespeare.

Take a better look at the community. You seem to a lot of misconceptions.
I appreciate Poe, Shakespeare, Byron, Shelley, Pound, etc. Still, they were not gothic, except for Poe who created gothic literature, which is very deep and complex. Most of what goths believe of him is a lie, he was not an alcholic, he was not a drug addict either. That was presented by his editor after his death in October 7th 1849.

His editor was a bastard, and he lied about Poe because Poe was so brilliant he often would go head to head with the man and show him up frequently. Still Poe loved him very much, and respected him, but his editor Griswold was a bastard.

Also, the romantic era is dead, it's archaic, or obsolete. I think that going back to those times is just representing how people are imbeciles and cannot 'get with it.' I'm a modernist, I find that things must go forward, all things must go forward, if things go backwards, or if people dredge the past for their thoughts and feelings, they are effectively playing in the realm of the dead, and will sever themselves from reality.

I used to write poetry using archaic words, etc. Then I realized that all of these poets did not write archaicly, they wrote from a modern tone, such as Emily Dickinson who was noted for her colloquial diction, which is something none of the gothic 'romance' seems to possess. It strives to seperate, and become archaic and despondent. I find that this is a deplorable route for a human being. We should take those lessons and put them against the grain of today, and strain out the best of it, and take the modern ideas and compare them with what they were saying. Transfer these ideas and translate them into a colloquial sense. I am sure none of them would have written the way they did then if they were to write again now.
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Old 12-14-2006, 02:29 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
I still find that the 'gothic subculture' is a very pretentious group of loners/outcasts and attention seekers.
Interests don't dictate personality. Yeah, there are some people who are like that. But very few, and those types of people can be found in any group. You can't really escape it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
Also, the romantic era is dead, it's archaic, or obsolete. I think that going back to those times is just representing how people are imbeciles and cannot 'get with it.' I'm a modernist, I find that things must go forward, all things must go forward, if things go backwards, or if people dredge the past for their thoughts and feelings, they are effectively playing in the realm of the dead, and will sever themselves from reality.
The Goth culture takes a lot from dead eras. The Victorian, The Edwardian, The Ancient Egyptian, and yes, The Old Romantic. It's where a lot of the style comes from. We like paying homage to those beautiful, romantic times. It doesn't cut us off from reality. I'm a technology nut who's very political and involved with the pressing issues of today. It's fun to mix the old and new on occasion though.
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Old 12-14-2006, 02:35 AM   #115
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I forgot to mention the Silent Film Era, which is my favorite.
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Old 12-14-2006, 04:36 AM   #116
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Interests don't dictate personality. Yeah, there are some people who are like that. But very few, and those types of people can be found in any group. You can't really escape it.



The Goth culture takes a lot from dead eras. The Victorian, The Edwardian, The Ancient Egyptian, and yes, The Old Romantic. It's where a lot of the style comes from. We like paying homage to those beautiful, romantic times. It doesn't cut us off from reality. I'm a technology nut who's very political and involved with the pressing issues of today. It's fun to mix the old and new on occasion though.

Yes, but you have to understand why it's old. That's where the seperation of reality comes, it's old and hackneyed because it's not fresh anymore. You should be respecting these ideas, and tracing them back, and learning about word etymology, etc.

But you should take these ideas and make sure you do not repeat them, there is nothing original that you are doing if you are merely borrowing ideas from a dead era.

Don't you want to be original? Originality comes from the birth of new ideas, not the dredging of the worn bones of a deceased and rather interesting time period.
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Old 12-14-2006, 06:46 AM   #117
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Old 12-14-2006, 08:35 AM   #118
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I swear Christianity has become a cult!
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Old 12-14-2006, 10:17 AM   #119
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Okay, just so you know, I'm not involved in this argument at all. But just because I like stirring things up, I'm going to say

Out with the old, in with the new; all this shit will never last.
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:43 PM   #120
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Wow. That's really...great. I'm done though, fuck it. This is a complete waste of time. You asked me a question and I answered. I'm not on this board to argue with anyone. I'm here to enjoy myself and talk with interesting people I have things in common with. I pity you that this is what you do in your spare time.
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Old 12-14-2006, 03:52 PM   #121
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fuck it. This is a complete waste of time.
I'm glad you arrived to this conclusion, albeit a little late. But all is well that ends well. =)
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Old 12-14-2006, 04:02 PM   #122
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Old 12-14-2006, 04:15 PM   #123
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Yes, but you have to understand why it's old. That's where the seperation of reality comes, it's old and hackneyed because it's not fresh anymore. You should be respecting these ideas, and tracing them back, and learning about word etymology, etc.

But you should take these ideas and make sure you do not repeat them, there is nothing original that you are doing if you are merely borrowing ideas from a dead era.

Don't you want to be original? Originality comes from the birth of new ideas, not the dredging of the worn bones of a deceased and rather interesting time period.
There is nothing new under the sun. Originality comes from taking what's gone before and combining it in new and original ways. Everything new is based on elements of things that came before it, and everything old is new again. So while I agree with your philosophy about the importance of originality and progression here, you still have to work with the same old ingredients to produce something new and original. Goth is a combination of many influences put together to produce something new but classic at the same time. And new influences are continually being woven into it, despite what some may think.

There is a mistaken idea that somehow goths have to look 100% different from each other 100% of the time, or they are not being original. The fact is, goths have a lot in common due to the fact that they share a lot of the same aesthetics and interests. It's inevitable that they will look similar. Who says they shouldn't? It is supposed to be a case of someone expressing themselves *first*, and then finding other people who share a similar outlook, rather than someone finding a group and changing their interests to fit in with that group. Of course we know the latter still happens, but those people are the chaff and usually don't last long.

As far as goth itself goes, realize that this board is populated mainly by high school-aged kids who are themselves just learning what goth is. So you can't really go by what you read here, as obviously many of the posters have no clue what they're talking about. Hopefully they'll figure it out eventually. The goth 'subculture' (call it what you will) has been around since at least 1979, long before most of these people were born, and will continue to be around for quite a while yet to come, whether in the public eye or not. The stereotypes come and go, as do the media circuses. None of this matters to the goths who are being who they really are, and who will continue to go on doing so.

Your view of goth is most definitely inaccurate.

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Old 12-14-2006, 04:21 PM   #124
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Old 12-14-2006, 05:05 PM   #125
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