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Old 12-14-2006, 06:17 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick Ignis
Wow. That's really...great. I'm done though, fuck it. This is a complete waste of time. You asked me a question and I answered. I'm not on this board to argue with anyone. I'm here to enjoy myself and talk with interesting people I have things in common with. I pity you that this is what you do in your spare time.
The feeling is mutual, you go onto fora to discuss your gothdom. What a tool.
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Old 12-14-2006, 06:24 PM   #127
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There is nothing new under the sun. Originality comes from taking what's gone before and combining it in new and original ways. Everything new is based on elements of things that came before it, and everything old is new again. So while I agree with your philosophy about the importance of originality and progression here, you still have to work with the same old ingredients to produce something new and original. Goth is a combination of many influences put together to produce something new but classic at the same time. And new influences are continually being woven into it, despite what some may think.

There is a mistaken idea that somehow goths have to look 100% different from each other 100% of the time, or they are not being original. The fact is, goths have a lot in common due to the fact that they share a lot of the same aesthetics and interests. It's inevitable that they will look similar. Who says they shouldn't? It is supposed to be a case of someone expressing themselves *first*, and then finding other people who share a similar outlook, rather than someone finding a group and changing their interests to fit in with that group. Of course we know the latter still happens, but those people are the chaff and usually don't last long.

As far as goth itself goes, realize that this board is populated mainly by high school-aged kids who are themselves just learning what goth is. So you can't really go by what you read here, as obviously many of the posters have no clue what they're talking about. Hopefully they'll figure it out eventually. The goth 'subculture' (call it what you will) has been around since at least 1979, long before most of these people were born, and will continue to be around for quite a while yet to come, whether in the public eye or not. The stereotypes come and go, as do the media circuses. None of this matters to the goths who are being who they really are, and who will continue to go on doing so.

Your view of goth is most definitely inaccurate.

--SKot

Yes, because the computer was definetly something old that we made new. That and the movable type, the light bulb, electricity, the ptolemaic system, etc.

"None of this matters to the goths who are being who they really are, and who will continue to go on doing so."

Irony: being who you really are, requires the expulsion of labels and clichés. You embrace them, you would rather dress similarly to others, and fit into a group of people rather than wear whatever the hell you want, behave however you feel, etc.

I am an individual, I do not fit into any group besides the human race. I can't fit, I don't wear the right clothes, I don't behave the right way, I don't have the right outlook every single day.

Being an individual does not mean to conform to something else to acquire acceptance and peace of mind. You have a long way to go, kiddo.
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Old 12-14-2006, 06:35 PM   #128
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Greetings Omegagoth,
While I certainly agree with your statement concerning invention. I contend that there is not one individual in existence that does not fit into a group. Everyone who is civilized belongs to one. Due to the incredible population of humans, a person must have had experiences which has shaped their personality similar to yours. This is feasible, especially, if we live in the same society, since we are bound by the same moral and ethical limits.
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Old 12-14-2006, 06:57 PM   #129
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I think you'll find that most (real) goths dress the way they do or listen to certain types of music because they LIKE to. They aren't trying to fit in, they happen to fit in due to what they already like. There's a big difference.

As many of us here have gone over many many times to newbies on the site, it isn't about changing yourself to fit the label. The only reason the label can even exist is because most people with similar interests in music, literature, art and fashion have similar interests in other things, too. Most goths also have difficulty finding people into the same things they are because they don't fit into 'mainstream ideals'. The label helps us come together and share ideas and tastes.

There are no gothic behaviours or thought processes that we have to abide to. We're brought together by shared interests, and very little else.

Try to find two goths who are exactly the same and you'll fail miserably, because none of us are. We're just like the rest of the human race, only we happen to have a few extra things in common - just like members of a music or drama club. Perhaps that means we should get our precious 'subculture' label revoked, but that doesn't matter as long as we still have one another to associate with.

Also: the inventions you speak of are those of enourmous consequences that usually do come out of nowhere - but with previous knowledge already built up to make way for it. (Our capturing of fire is probably the only truly original thing we've ever done.) A majority of new ideas are built upon the old. Ernest Rutherford couldn't have discovered the nucleus of the atom if he didn't have John Dalton's first modern atomic theory to start with.
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Old 12-14-2006, 09:45 PM   #130
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At some point, I'm hoping you guys will just say fuck it, realize that both sides make good points, and agree. I mean, look at you, ZOMG INTERNET DRAMA ALERTZ!!!

lol, but seriously, we're all intellectuals here (most of us), so try to agree to disagree. In the end, it really won't make a difference either way.
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Old 12-14-2006, 10:08 PM   #131
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I'm not continuing out of seriousness here - it's just diversion as far as I'm concerned. He'll no doubt continue to disagree with everything we say, and we'll disagree back for as long as there's someone sitting at their computer with nothing better to do.

Once 6pm Malaysian time roles around I'll be off to Italy for 2 weeks, and Azerbaijan for another week after that, so no doubt you'll be seeing very little from me here. Think of my last post as a 'farewell rant' .
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Old 12-15-2006, 03:16 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero
I'm not continuing out of seriousness here - it's just diversion as far as I'm concerned. He'll no doubt continue to disagree with everything we say, and we'll disagree back for as long as there's someone sitting at their computer with nothing better to do.

Once 6pm Malaysian time roles around I'll be off to Italy for 2 weeks, and Azerbaijan for another week after that, so no doubt you'll be seeing very little from me here. Think of my last post as a 'farewell rant' .
Oh no! We'll miss you Captain Cicero!
Godspeed, and we'll rejoice upon your return!
*heart*
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Old 12-15-2006, 04:37 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero
I think you'll find that most (real) goths dress the way they do or listen to certain types of music because they LIKE to. They aren't trying to fit in, they happen to fit in due to what they already like. There's a big difference.

As many of us here have gone over many many times to newbies on the site, it isn't about changing yourself to fit the label. The only reason the label can even exist is because most people with similar interests in music, literature, art and fashion have similar interests in other things, too. Most goths also have difficulty finding people into the same things they are because they don't fit into 'mainstream ideals'. The label helps us come together and share ideas and tastes.

There are no gothic behaviours or thought processes that we have to abide to. We're brought together by shared interests, and very little else.

Try to find two goths who are exactly the same and you'll fail miserably, because none of us are. We're just like the rest of the human race, only we happen to have a few extra things in common - just like members of a music or drama club. Perhaps that means we should get our precious 'subculture' label revoked, but that doesn't matter as long as we still have one another to associate with.

Also: the inventions you speak of are those of enourmous consequences that usually do come out of nowhere - but with previous knowledge already built up to make way for it. (Our capturing of fire is probably the only truly original thing we've ever done.) A majority of new ideas are built upon the old. Ernest Rutherford couldn't have discovered the nucleus of the atom if he didn't have John Dalton's first modern atomic theory to start with.

Actually, he wouldn't have discovered that, or even thought of that if it wasn't for Democritus a 5th century B.C. Greek philosopher. That's why it's the reproposed atomic theory.


I don't know about you, but I don't like to fit into groups, it's that kind of loss of individuality that bothers me. I try to avoid being classified unless it's: Human, or man.

That's all I want to be classified by: my biological components.
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Old 12-15-2006, 11:28 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
Yes, because the computer was definetly something old that we made new. That and the movable type, the light bulb, electricity, the ptolemaic system, etc.
Where would the computer be without taking what we already knew about electricity and combining it with other known inventions to create something new? Isn't a printer taking the same thing that movable type was created for and advancing it to evolve into something new? Everything you know now is built on something old that was known in the past. I rest my case here.

Quote:
"None of this matters to the goths who are being who they really are, and who will continue to go on doing so."

Irony: being who you really are, requires the expulsion of labels and clichés.
Who made these labels? I didn't. I didn't actually say I was a goth, did I? But if the shoe fits, why throw it away?

Clichés? You can't escape them. Even you saying you are an individual that doesn't fit into any group is a cliché. Love And Rockets have a lyric that goes:

'You cannot go against nature/Because when you do/Go against nature/It's part of nature too.'

And even that is a cliché, my friend. But well said nonetheless. People who try their hardest not to do or like anything that is conformist, mainstream, cliché or otherwise are doing just that: trying too hard. And in the process, not being true to themselves. That's why 'goths' who are doing the goth thing just to be rebellious and shocking are pathetic and clueless, and they won't be around long. There are a lot of them here, as you may have noticed.

Do what suits you, be who you are. I am doing just that. How about you?

Quote:
You embrace them, you would rather dress similarly to others, and fit into a group of people rather than wear whatever the hell you want, behave however you feel, etc.
I don't think you understand. I *am* dressing the way I want, being who I want, associating with who I want. The fact that this is similar to what the goth subculture does is actually irrelevant, though I can't say I'm unhappy that there are others who feel the same way I do. If goth went away tomorrow I wouldn't change anything I do. If goth changed into something I don't like tomorrow, I'd shun it like rotten cabbage. And that's that.

Of course, that's just me, and doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else here. But I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Quote:
I am an individual, I do not fit into any group besides the human race. I can't fit, I don't wear the right clothes, I don't behave the right way, I don't have the right outlook every single day.

Being an individual does not mean to conform to something else to acquire acceptance and peace of mind. You have a long way to go, kiddo.
The day I do only what some group dictates to me as the right thing to do is the day I die. And that goes for the goth subculture as well. Long way to go? I've already been there, likely for longer than you've been alive... kiddo.

You seem like a sensible person. Why waste time lambasting goth kids on the internet? The ones who fit your stereotypes aren't really goths anyway, and the ones who don't fit them deserve a little respect.

--SKot
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Old 12-15-2006, 11:30 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
I don't know about you, but I don't like to fit into groups, it's that kind of loss of individuality that bothers me. I try to avoid being classified unless it's: Human, or man.

That's all I want to be classified by: my biological components.
Ever consider that that puts you into a certain classification right there?

Something to think about.

--SKot
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Old 12-15-2006, 11:34 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by SKot
Ever consider that that puts you into a certain classification right there?

Something to think about.

--SKot

Oh really deep, dumb ass. At least I don't go around parading how I have surrendered my individuality to the pre-packaged hot-topic whores.
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Old 12-15-2006, 11:56 AM   #137
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Oh really deep, dumb ass. At least I don't go around parading how I have surrendered my individuality to the pre-packaged hot-topic whores.
Obviously you missed the point of my whole post above, which is exactly the opposite of what you're claiming here.*

And really... 'dumb ass'? I expected far better from you.

--SKot


* Incidentally, Hot Topic did not even exist when I found my own identity. But that's me, and your mileage may vary. Also, isn't A Clockwork Orange itself a rather hackneyed and cliché thing to promulgate? That was old when *I* was a young nipper.
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Old 12-15-2006, 11:59 AM   #138
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Obviously you missed the point of my whole post above, which is exactly the opposite of what you're claiming here.*

And really... 'dumb ass'? I expected far better from you.

--SKot


* Incidentally, Hot Topic did not even exist when I found my own identity. But that's me, and your mileage may vary. Also, isn't A Clockwork Orange itself a rather hackneyed and cliché thing to promulgate? That was old when *I* was a young nipper.

So you're a fat middle-aged goth? Wow, how pathetic. A Clockwork Orange was only popularized by the movie, you probably never read the book.
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Old 12-15-2006, 12:18 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
So you're a fat middle-aged goth? Wow, how pathetic.
That's a simple issue of perspective. What I find pathetic is that you have begun ignoring SKot's responses to your claims and in its stead have begun trying to degrade him with not-so-clever comebacks.
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Old 12-15-2006, 12:21 PM   #140
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I haven't ignored shit, he is a guy who never grew up.
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Old 12-15-2006, 01:50 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
So you're a fat middle-aged goth? Wow, how pathetic. A Clockwork Orange was only popularized by the movie, you probably never read the book.
Ad hominem attacks now? I'm disappointed in you. Have you really reached the end of your mental rope already? All three of those terms are meant to be insulting, I assume.

I'm quite aware that A Clockwork Orange was both a book and a film, thank you very much. That I'm also a reading man should come as no surprise.

Come on, man! Use your INTELLECT; you're letting me down here. I enjoyed the more challenging conversation I had with you earlier, but I'm rapidly losing interest at this point.

--SKot
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Old 12-15-2006, 09:12 PM   #142
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I'm sorry, I could have forgiven you for giving into an egomass at a young and innocent age, but after being twenty one, I find it improbable to continue living in a fantasy world.
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Old 12-15-2006, 11:05 PM   #143
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Why is everyone saying that this forum has a lot of people who are simply trying to be gothic to either fit in or shock others. I have not notice that many people like that here, and if they did join, they left shortly after.
Why do I have a feeling that is mostly said about the younger users?
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Old 12-15-2006, 11:06 PM   #144
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I'm sorry, I could have forgiven you for giving into an egomass at a young and innocent age, but after being twenty one, I find it improbable to continue living in a fantasy world.
Then why are you trying so hard to prove them wrong. If you don't like this, why bother being here, wasting the time out of your life for the debate?
I don't understand you...
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Old 12-15-2006, 11:59 PM   #145
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Then why are you trying so hard to prove them wrong. If you don't like this, why bother being here, wasting the time out of your life for the debate?
I don't understand you...
I am enigmatic, that is why.
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Old 12-16-2006, 02:48 AM   #146
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"Enigmatic" is hardly the word I'd use...
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Old 12-16-2006, 03:51 AM   #147
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What? Problematic?
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Old 12-16-2006, 11:41 AM   #148
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It seems to me you are actually looking for arguments. Nothing wrong with getting a kick out of people bitching at you, just don't mask it with words like "Enigmatic".
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Old 12-16-2006, 11:48 AM   #149
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I don't have to look for arguments, they come to me.
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Old 12-16-2006, 11:50 AM   #150
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Only if you ask for it dear.
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