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Old 07-30-2011, 11:38 PM   #26
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...

Fuck DC.
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Old 07-30-2011, 11:38 PM   #27
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She's usually pretty good, depends on who's drawing her of course. Normally when she's overly sexualized they just inflate her boobs:





Now you see them, now you don't! Magic.
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Old 07-30-2011, 11:44 PM   #28
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Would it kill them to give these ladies some actual functionality in their costumes when fighting crime?
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:56 AM   #29
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Well, as a guy who doesn't mind some fan-service in his comics, I have to say that all the feminist concerns about whether the costume looks functional should recognize that none of this is real. When the scarlet speedster runs around the speed of sound, his clothing doesn't burst into flames because of some technology. When Wonder Woman throws a rope around someone and it compels them to tell the truth or when she stops bullets with her bracelets, it's because of magic.

Most of the superheroes have uniforms that defy standard functionality, but that's okay. They're mythical beings wearing mythical, iconic outfits (not that I like the latest designs coming out of the house that Detective Comics built) and they don't have to make logical sense.

-------------------------------------------

In further news related to the thread topic:

Con-Fused? 10 Lingering Questions About the DCnU from Newsarama.com

Story includes -

10)
Will "Story X" be canon?
6)
Whatever Happened to Wally West?
4)
Will Dead Characters Stay Dead?
3)
How Much Does a Reader Have to Participate in Making the New Timeline Work?
Quote:
And if the JLA has only been together for five years, and Superman has only been a public hero for five years, it gets tough to cram their history together into that timeframe.

DC may want their fans to stop demanding such a strict adherence to continuity. But that negates something that fandom cherishes. From Star Trek to Anne Rice novels, continuity is the backbone of many fan communities based on fictional stories.
2)
How Long Did Batman's Career Predate Superman?
Quote:
In response to questions about how Batman's continuity could have happened in only five years, DC has indicated the Dark Knight actually started operating secretly before other superheroes appeared.

In fact, he was just an urban legend.

But fans are having trouble making those years add up.

In five years, he had four Robins and was replaced twice?
1)
Does the Justice Society of America Exist Anymore?
Quote:
This question has been addressed by DC ... but not exactly answered. In San Diego, DC executives indicated the publisher is giving the JSA a "rest." Jim Lee even pointed out in San Diego that the WildStorm characters were given a similar "rest" when that imprint ended earlier this year, and it didn't take long for them to return.

But that doesn't answer the nagging question of what the "dawn of superheroes" being five years ago means for the tradition of the Justice Society of America existing before the Justice League. Nor does it alleviate the distress of fans whose favorite characters were on that team.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:15 PM   #30
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You know, you're right, Ben. Let's go whole hog with it. Make all the females totally nude. None of it's real, so it's okay.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:22 PM   #31
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The issue isn't just functionality, I don't mind Zatanna's regular costume anyway because she uses magic, she doesn't need to be able to kick or run like Batwoman needs to.

The issue is sexual objectification. In a universe where all women dress like what little clothes they have would tear away easily, and most men are covered except for face and hands, what does that tell you?

Women don't get the same kind of cheesecake. DC Women Kicking Ass did a bit on Nicola Scott, and this is what they consider cheesecake:



I don't think a lot of heterosexual men would pick up on the fact that this is pandering to female fans, but when Zatanna is fighting in her underwear and Harley's top looks like its going to fall off any minute, its pretty obvious they're appealing to men's dicks. You can be sexy and subtle at the same time, like Nightwing or Batwoman.
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Old 07-31-2011, 07:00 PM   #32
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Oh... wait... That doesn't make sense. Why is she blonde? Didn't she have like... brown or reddish brown hair?
Sorry, forgot to answer this. She's mixed race, part Chinese, European and Arab, I think, and how obvious that is changes. Her original depiction:



And the different variations:





But I've never seen her as a blonde.
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Old 07-31-2011, 07:46 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Saya View Post
The issue is sexual objectification. In a universe where all women dress like what little clothes they have would tear away easily, and most men are covered except for face and hands, what does that tell you?

Women don't get the same kind of cheesecake.

*snip*

I don't think a lot of heterosexual men would pick up on the fact that this is pandering to female fans (Actually, it is pretty blatantly obvious, Saya. Saya? SAYA? Quit staring at those butt cheeks! - Ben), but when Zatanna is fighting in her underwear and Harley's top looks like its going to fall off any minute, its pretty obvious they're appealing to men's dicks. You can be sexy and subtle at the same time, like Nightwing or Batwoman.
1) If your beef is that women don't get the same kind of cheesecake as men, then encourage female writers, artists and even male artists to produce more salacious male heroes.

2) If you want your male heroes to be of a more subtly sexy nature, encourage that. But don't say "this is how we like our male heroes portrayed, so the female heroes should be portrayed the same way."

3) Fan service has been selling comics for decades, and I have yet to see anyone prove any harm in it other than general complaints about objectification. Years of young men finding female heroines blatantly sexy and even seeing them portrayed in a way that openly "panders to men's dicks" has never been a problem. The way many men treat real women HAS been a problem, and such has been the case since long before comics or centerfolds existed. In fact, maybe it all started with those cave drawings.

4) You say "sexual objectification" as if it's a bad thing. Until we develop telepathy, all sexual relations are an objectification of some sort. Do you want a sexless race?

By the way, I'm not completely disagreeing with you on some costumes being ridiculous. I don't care for the Harley Quinn or Zatanna looks presented previously in this thread, but because of the lousy aesthetic, not because of some faux concern about functionality or cheesecake.

And remember, we all made fun of the bat nipples in Batman & Robin.
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:03 PM   #34
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I'm saying you can be sexy without being overly sexually objectified or mostly nude. Catwoman has been like this, although in the reboot she'll be showing a lot of skin all the time and popping out of her suit.

No, it doesn't really hurt anyone, but its hard to read a comic as a woman when all women are displayed in one way. I don't normally mind Catwoman's tight suit or Zatanna's legs, but when it gets to the point where their boobs are physically impossible or they look like they're about to star in a hentai, its ridiculous. And when its all of the characters getting this treatment, what does that say about women? What about Vicky Vale's ass taking up the whole box when she's talking? Why do they act like men would not like a female character unless she's half naked? Its insulting.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:30 PM   #35
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Saya wins.

/feminism
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:48 PM   #36
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Also, just in case you missed it, there were gender bending cosplayers at comic con who pretty much pointed out the difference between male and female costumes in DC:





The only lady who was scantily clad was Martian Manhunter, who as a man is dressed like that also. Although definitely not in a sexual way XD

More here: http://blogs.laweekly.com/stylecounc...ice_league.php

I wish there was a male Black Canary XD
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:51 AM   #37
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I'm saying you can be sexy without being overly sexually objectified or mostly nude. Catwoman has been like this, although in the reboot she'll be showing a lot of skin all the time and popping out of her suit.
I'll mention again here that I liked Jim Balent's run on Catwoman and hate the look during Brubaker's run, which is the exact opposite of what you like. Why should the comics I like be changed to where I don't like them just so you do?

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No, it doesn't really hurt anyone,
Thank you for acknowledging that.

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... but its hard to read a comic as a woman when all women are displayed in one way.
That's an exaggeration. Not all DC women are portrayed the same way, or have been portrayed the same way all the time. I have pretty much liked all of Black Canary's story-lines throughout her run (except when Frank Miller used her as a throw-away prop in the abysmal All-Star Batman and Robin), and it didn't have anything to do with how much skin was showing.

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I don't normally mind Catwoman's tight suit or Zatanna's legs, but when it gets to the point where their boobs are physically impossible or they look like they're about to star in a hentai, its ridiculous.
Many feminists complain about the large-breasted portrayal of Karen Starr/Power Girl in recent DC history. But I've seen comments by female fans that say they are glad the character is drawn that way because they themselves are large-breasted women and they can relate to her. We can quibble about gravity and suit dynamics, but some of what you call ridiculous is not so. Some of what you criticize is enjoyed and appreciated by others (including some women.)

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And when its all of the characters getting this treatment, what does that say about women? What about Vicky Vale's ass taking up the whole box when she's talking? Why do they act like men would not like a female character unless she's half naked? Its insulting.
Again, you exaggerate a bit to make your point, but I will say that based on your last two sentences, perhaps it's men who should feel insulted ... if we were thin skinned about such things.

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Saya wins.

/feminism
Yes, you're right. If Saya wins, it IS the end of feminism.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:16 AM   #38
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Ben. WHY must you see female characters be sexualized in order to enjoy the comic? Are the comics that bad that tits and ass and getting your little soldier to stand at attention must be the only way to sell that comic?

You're talking as if the females didn't look non sexual, you yourself as a comic reader would be disappointed. That's... really quite pathetic.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:21 AM   #39
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Honestly, Comics need to get away from this oversexualized shit, and do you know why?

Because we have the internet. There are plenty of artists out there drawing hard-core porn of these characters and giving it to us for free. Superhero comics managed to survive on fanservice and adolescent power-fantasies for years and years, but now that's over. If little timmy wants to feel like a badass he doesn't have to read wolverine, he can go play a wolverine video game. If he wants to fap to cat woman, he can google "Catwoman Porn"

With print dying and the rise of digital media, comics need adapt and stand on the strength of their stories, and their artwork, NOT by ridiculously over-sexualizing women, because guess what? The market on that has already been cornered.

Evolve or die. Print comics are dying.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:33 AM   #40
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Interesting you'd bring that up, which was a part of my original post. Ben seems to just be apologizing for the hyper sexualization because he has his head stuck in the 90s.

With web comics on the rise and their diversity, ideas presented, and what they do to accomplish a lot of badassery, it's essential for DC or even print comics in general to be a little more intelligent with how they handle their universes.

Matter of fact, I just got done looking up Emma Frost porn. So her sexualization would have nothing to do with why I would buy a comic about her or weather I liked it or not.

DC is rebooting. And as I said before, it looks like they're just doing more of the same and that shit can't compete with strong writing and stronger art.
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:32 AM   #41
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I'll mention again here that I liked Jim Balent's run on Catwoman and hate the look during Brubaker's run, which is the exact opposite of what you like. Why should the comics I like be changed to where I don't like them just so you do?
So, really, you wouldn't read Catwoman if she didn't look like a porn star? Wow.

Quote:
That's an exaggeration. Not all DC women are portrayed the same way, or have been portrayed the same way all the time. I have pretty much liked all of Black Canary's story-lines throughout her run (except when Frank Miller used her as a throw-away prop in the abysmal All-Star Batman and Robin), and it didn't have anything to do with how much skin was showing.
Black Canary is pretty cool, but she so does show off a lot of skin. We are talking about the same one, right?



I think the only one who that I can think of that I haven't seen overtly sexualized is Oracle, and thats probably going to change when she's Batgirl again.

Quote:
Many feminists complain about the large-breasted portrayal of Karen Starr/Power Girl in recent DC history. But I've seen comments by female fans that say they are glad the character is drawn that way because they themselves are large-breasted women and they can relate to her. We can quibble about gravity and suit dynamics, but some of what you call ridiculous is not so. Some of what you criticize is enjoyed and appreciated by others (including some women.)
THEY ARE ALL LARGE BREASTED. I think Batwoman is the only fully grown superhero in DC that I can think of that has small-ISH boobs, even then she's definitely not flat, and in costume she does look like she's not wearing a bra and in some frames I'm awfully suspicious her nipples are showing through. Harley Quinn was also on the small side but I wouldn't accuse her of being flat chested, and SO MUCH FOR THAT NOW. A woman with big tits looking for a character with big tits has NO PROBLEM finding that in DC. How many ADULT women in DC look anything like lets say Joss Whedon's Melaka Fray?




Quote:
Again, you exaggerate a bit to make your point, but I will say that based on your last two sentences, perhaps it's men who should feel insulted ... if we were thin skinned about such things.
Well good for you if you don't mind being treated like a a guy who's led by his dick, but I don't think you speak for all men, and I don't think all men like being treated like all they need is wank material to be interested in women characters.

Quote:
Yes, you're right. If Saya wins, it IS the end of feminism.
Yes, my god, if DC ever treats its fans as more than sad masturbating nerds and treats female characters with an ounce of dignity, that means feminism is over!
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:08 PM   #42
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http://www.collegehumor.com/video/65...le-armor-sucks

Ben. Saya. This is why Saya is mostly right and Ben is being silly and wrong.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:42 PM   #43
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Ha ha ha! Right in the shiny part!

That was hilarious!

Saya, I was meaning all incarnations of Black Canary, since I first started seeing her in comics in the 70's. Which includes some considerably more conservatively dressed variations than the one you posted.

As far as Catwoman goes, I've enjoyed the all the stories of all the versions (and all varying degrees of sexualization) until they came up with the goggles look. The one you like. The one I really hate.

Also, I thought Fray was outstanding. (But your comment that all DC heroines are large breasted is belied by the two pictures you posted. Fray is flat chested ... not average. The recent version of DC heroine Black Canary that you posted is a little bit above average in bust size, but not excessive.)

By the way, I never said that the female comic characters had to be hyper-sexualized for me to enjoy them. But there are some that I do like that way, and I'm tired of people saying they should be changed to meet some feminist ideal.
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:52 AM   #44
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One more thing: I agree with Despanan that DC needs to stand on the strength of their stories. But I've been saying for a while that the house of the bat has been largely bereft of imaginative writers capable of creating new, intriguing story-lines (Superman Walks, Wonder Woman's history forgotten - yes, I'm picking on Straczynski as the most obvious culprit). With rare exception, they have largely been left to hyping the product with marketing ploys, and this renumbering reinvention is just more of the same.

Countering my concerns about this relaunch only slightly, Bleeding Cool reports:

DC Relaunch: Nicola Scott And James Robinson’s JSA #1?
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As the poets have mournfully sung,
death takes the innocent young,
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and those who are very well hung.


Your days are numbered - 26,280 per person on average - 2,000,000,000 heartbeats ... tick, tick, tick
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:36 PM   #45
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Ha ha ha! Right in the shiny part!

That was hilarious!

Saya, I was meaning all incarnations of Black Canary, since I first started seeing her in comics in the 70's. Which includes some considerably more conservatively dressed variations than the one you posted.

As far as Catwoman goes, I've enjoyed the all the stories of all the versions (and all varying degrees of sexualization) until they came up with the goggles look. The one you like. The one I really hate.

Also, I thought Fray was outstanding. (But your comment that all DC heroines are large breasted is belied by the two pictures you posted. Fray is flat chested ... not average. The recent version of DC heroine Black Canary that you posted is a little bit above average in bust size, but not excessive.)

By the way, I never said that the female comic characters had to be hyper-sexualized for me to enjoy them. But there are some that I do like that way, and I'm tired of people saying they should be changed to meet some feminist ideal.
If you actually read my post, I asked how many adult DCU women you know who look like Fray? She isn't DCU, by the way, she's Dark Horse. There's none. It runs the gamut from slightly smaller than average (and that's changing) to large, which is increasingly becoming the norm.

And I'm not really interested in silver and bronze age incarnations, most characters were more conservative back then, we're talking about how they are now. Black Canary has become one of the more sexualized characters of DC.

And really, you stopped enjoying Catwoman because you stopped enjoying her appearance? I can't understand that. I hate Mister Miracle's costume with a passion but he and Big Barda are one of my favourite DC couples.

And I get it, your feminism ends when you're dick is entertained. Its not changing the characters, its giving their costumes a little dignity. If most DC men were half naked I wouldn't be able to complain, but since most women in DC are, what does that tell us about how they think women characters should be, and how they target men audiences?
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:28 PM   #46
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I actually knew Fray was Dark Horse ... I was just mentioning her because you posted her picture.

If the only measure of sexualization was how much clothing characters wear, then the women would clearly be getting the short end of the stick. But the over-exaggeration of male muscles has been going on at the same time. Bigger biceps and ridiculously defined washboard abs to go with those increasing boob sizes. (By the way, did you know the breast size of American women has been increasing over the time I've been reading comics ... from an average of a B cup to a C cup. Not due to plastic surgery so much, but largely to increasing amounts of estrogen and to a lesser extent, increasing amounts of obesity. Just mentioning it as a fun fact.)

I actually was annoyed by the goggles and the look, but I truly thought the Catwoman stories got hijacked by an agenda about the same time, and I stopped being entertained by the stories.

My feminism ends where the real world ends and fiction begins.
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death takes the innocent young,
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and those who are very well hung.


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Old 08-02-2011, 09:03 PM   #47
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So what does Fray have to do with my comment that DC doesn't like small tits? And exposed skin and huge tits are not the only measure, and men still have far less skin exposed, and muscle isn't sexualized like breasts are. Unless they're on a woman, Women Woman's muscles come and go, because muscles on a woman aren't sexy. Its fine to be a kinda ugly man in DC though.

But, I think I found the perfect comic for you: http://tinyurl.com/3co9jyt
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:07 PM   #48
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Lllloooollll!!!
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:56 PM   #49
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My feminism ends where the real world ends and fiction begins.
That right there says a lot about you.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:26 PM   #50
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Huh.

Here's what I think it says about me: that I believe works of fiction cover everything from Margaret Atwood to the Marquis de Sade, and perhaps further extremes. I don't apply the same values to fiction, because it's not real. It can make a point, but it doesn't have to. It doesn't have to serve society's better good. And usually, when someone determines that it should be changed or censored because it's not meeting a value standard, it's a mistake.

I hadn't planned on saying that, but I felt like I had to respond to your comment, Solumina.

I actually came back to this thread because I'd been thinking about this conversation a lot lately. And I just wanted to say that I respect Saya and Ashley O's opinion, and as buyers in the marketplace they have a right, and probably an obligation, to let the producers of the product know what they want.
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death takes the innocent young,
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and those who are very well hung.


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