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Old 03-16-2012, 05:39 PM   #26
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This is really bad.

http://rt.com/news/massacre-kandahar...-american-705/

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An Afghan parliamentary investigation team has implicated up to 20 US troops in the massacre of 16 civilians in Kandahar early on Sunday morning. It contradicts NATO's account that insists one rogue soldier was behind the slaughter.
The team of Afghan lawmakers has spent two days collating reports from witnesses, survivors and inhabitants of the villages where the tragedy took place.
“We are convinced that one soldier cannot kill so many people in two villages within one hour at the same time, and the 16 civilians, most of them children and women, have been killed by the two groups,” investigator Hamizai Lali told Afghan News.
Lali also said their investigations led them to believe 15 to 20 US soldiers had been involved in the killings. He appealed to the international community to ensure that the responsible parties were brought to justice, stressing the Afghan parliament would not rest until the killers were prosecuted.
"If the international community does not play its role in punishing the perpetrators, the Wolesi Jirga [parliament] would declare foreign troops as occupying forces,” he said.
The head of the Afghan parliamentary investigation, Sayed Ishaq Gillani, told the BBC that witnesses report seeing helicopters dropping chaff during the attack, a measure used to hide targets from ground attack.
Gillani added that locals suspect the massacre was revenge for attacks carried out last week on US forces that left several injured.
In response to the massacre Afghan PM Hamid Karzai called for US troops to quit Afghan villages and confine themselves to their military bases across the country. Furthermore, the Taliban announced that talks with US forces would be suspended.
Meanwhile the US military has detained one soldier in connection with the massacre and transferred him to Kuwait amid outcry for a public trial in Afghanistan. Currently, the soldier is being flown to Kansas base, AFP reported.
US authorities are currently conducting an investigation into the motives behind the attack, but maintain that the soldier’s trial must be dealt with by the US legal system.
It is believed that the soldier may have had alcohol problems and been suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:14 PM   #27
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That totally incredible. Nobody should believe the teistominies of people that don't value justice like us.
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:29 AM   #28
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That totally incredible. Nobody should believe the teistominies of people that don't value justice like us.
Thats a broad statement to make about a whole race of people.

Who says Afghanis don't value justice like Americans?

I guess the best way to illustrate my point is like this -

You ever see the movie Red Dawn? Thats the same thing the Russians who invaded America said about the Americans who fought back against them after the US government lost the war.

If Russia, China, or Iran invaded America and won, would you simply sit by after the occupying forces rolled in and let it happen? It could be said the behaviors shown are nothing more than the actions of patriots who love their country as much as you love your own. Trying to justify your actions by discounting them as equal human beings is what governments love to do to get people to do what they want. You might as well say all Mexicans are illegals, all blacks are thieves, or go back a few decades and say all Jews are trying to destroy Germany.

The only thing incredible here is America still hasn't learned the lessons that every single invading army dating back to Genghis Khan learned in a shorter time span - you can't conquer Afghanistan, its a fools folly and defined the military definition of quagmire years before Vietnam was even a problem for Americans.

The fact soldiers on their fourth deployment are finding out this and it is effecting them mentally should not be incredible or shocking to anyone.
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:14 AM   #29
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Thats a broad statement to make about a whole race of people.

Who says Afghanis don't value justice like Americans?

I guess the best way to illustrate my point is like this -

You ever see the movie Red Dawn? Thats the same thing the Russians who invaded America said about the Americans who fought back against them after the US government lost the war.

If Russia, China, or Iran invaded America and won, would you simply sit by after the occupying forces rolled in and let it happen? It could be said the behaviors shown are nothing more than the actions of patriots who love their country as much as you love your own. Trying to justify your actions by discounting them as equal human beings is what governments love to do to get people to do what they want. You might as well say all Mexicans are illegals, all blacks are thieves, or go back a few decades and say all Jews are trying to destroy Germany.

The only thing incredible here is America still hasn't learned the lessons that every single invading army dating back to Genghis Khan learned in a shorter time span - you can't conquer Afghanistan, its a fools folly and defined the military definition of quagmire years before Vietnam was even a problem for Americans.

The fact soldiers on their fourth deployment are finding out this and it is effecting them mentally should not be incredible or shocking to anyone.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:07 PM   #30
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"And how did this one soldier manage to attack two villages at the same time?"

"Well... he was really drunk you see..."
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:11 PM   #31
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"And how did this one soldier manage to attack two villages at the same time?"

"Well... he was really drunk you see..."
No, he was cloned..... a lot.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:51 PM   #32
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Despite my obviously sarcastic statement, I'm extremely skeptical that a platoon decided to kill a few families in the middle of the night.
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:43 AM   #33
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Despite my obviously sarcastic statement, I'm extremely skeptical that a platoon decided to kill a few families in the middle of the night.
At this point, it is nothing new...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:41 AM   #34
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Gosh, Sternn. It's like I had never considered that it may have happened in the past before you had mentioned that. Everything that I know about the military that conflicted with Saya's post about the investigation has been completely nullified by your absolutely illuminating comment.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:52 AM   #35
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They are probably lying and killed a bunch of unrelated people in that other village just to make us look bad.
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:19 AM   #36
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This is turning into Regarding The Pain Of Others bingo.

Blame the other side? Check! Sternn can't resist a thread in which America isn't the good guy? Check!
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:33 AM   #37
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"Versus gets riled up" is the free square.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:13 AM   #38
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http://news.**********/afghan-shooti...020721574.html

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NEW YORK/SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - The U.S. soldier accused of killing 16 civilians in Afghanistan left for war without paying a $1.5 million judgment for defrauding an elderly client in a stock scheme, and remains shielded from the obligation as long as he remains in the military, legal experts said.

Before beginning his military career in November, 2001, Robert Bales worked almost five-and-a-half years at a series of largely intertwined brokerages that received repeated regulatory censures, according to regulatory records.

Bales joined the Army 18 months after an Ohio investor filed an arbitration complaint alleging unauthorized trading, breach of contract and other abuses against him, his securities firm and the firm's owner. In 2003, the arbitration panel ordered them to pay the investor $1.2 million, including $637,000 in punitive damages for willful or malicious conduct and $216,500 in attorneys' fees.

Bales never appeared before the panel and did not hire a lawyer to represent him.

Earle Frost, a lawyer for the victim, Gary Liebschner, said his client never received any of the payment ordered by the National Association of Securities Dealers (NASD) panel.

He said Liebschner could have taken Bales to court to enforce the award, but "we couldn't find him."

By that time, Bales had embarked on an Army career that included three tours of duty in Iraq and a fourth in Afghanistan.
I know a few people who have availed of this loophole. About four lads I knew in high school all went and got credit cards when they were 18 and ran up 5000 in charges and then all joined the military. In Virginia the statute of limitations on credit card debt is six years, they stayed in the military for that long and never had to pay the money back.

Looks like this guy had the same idea.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:20 AM   #39
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http://news.**********/afghan-shooti...020721574.html



I know a few people who have availed of this loophole. About four lads I knew in high school all went and got credit cards when they were 18 and ran up 5000 in charges and then all joined the military. In Virginia the statute of limitations on credit card debt is six years, they stayed in the military for that long and never had to pay the money back.

Looks like this guy had the same idea.
Because it's unlikely that anybody would ever join the army because they feel it's the right thing to do, right? It makes absolute sense for someone to chose a combat role (infantry in Bales case) because they want an easy ride.
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Old 03-26-2012, 04:30 AM   #40
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Are you suggesting he got all patriotic out of the blue with no apparent real reason and his criminal situation didn't play any part?

If he was 18 that might make sense, but he joined in his late thirties years after the wars in the middle east had started and had been going for years, combat operations in Iraq were already being wound down, and almost a full decade after 9-11.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:24 AM   #41
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Are you suggesting he got all patriotic out of the blue with no apparent real reason and his criminal situation didn't play any part?

If he was 18 that might make sense, but he joined in his late thirties years after the wars in the middle east had started and had been going for years, combat operations in Iraq were already being wound down, and almost a full decade after 9-11.
You're seeing only what the fuck you want to see, again.

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Before beginning his military career in November, 2001
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:03 AM   #42
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Perception is everything.

http://news.**********/blogs/lookout...081702734.html

Poll: Support for Afghan war drops sharply

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Support for the war in Afghanistan is slipping fast, according to a New York Times/CBS News poll released Monday. More than two-thirds of those surveyed, 69 percent, think the United States should no longer be fighting, a 16 percent jump from just four months ago.

A similar number, 68 percent, say the war effort is going either "very badly" or "somewhat badly," a big increase from 42 percent in the last poll in November.
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Old 03-28-2012, 05:41 PM   #43
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Perception is everything.
I'm anti-war, too, but I still don't try to paint victims as dirt bags. So what's your excuse?
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:25 PM   #44
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...JhS_story.html

Lawyer says he suffered trauma, including a friend losing a leg days before the massacre.

Others point out things just as bad as this has happened before, these things happen in war and you need to expect it when you go around starting them: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches...es-afghanistan
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:27 AM   #45
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Am I really the one 'painting' the man as a 'dirt bag' when he is wanted for extorting the live savings from elderly couples and murdering over a dozen unarmed women and children?

You really think he is the 'victim' here? I agree he may have been victimised, but like a paedo who was abused when he was young himself it does not excuse his behaviour.

Also, if this man is a victim, which I will agree with you he is in many ways, then we both know who is responsible victimising him, the US military. Or we could say the US government. There is enough blame to go around on this one sure.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:50 AM   #46
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Am I really the one 'painting' the man as a 'dirt bag' when he is wanted for extorting the live savings from elderly couples and murdering over a dozen unarmed women and children?
Yes, you fucking ignorant twat. His debt is completely unrelated to this fucking thread and the only reason you would flap your useless fucking mouth enough to bring it up is to suggest that he has bad character. Here's a fucking thought for you:

BEING AN ASSHOLE AND MURDERING WOMEN AND CHILDREN ARE UNRELATED.

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You really think he is the 'victim' here? I agree he may have been victimised, but like a paedo who was abused when he was young himself it does not excuse his behaviour.
Who THE FUCK are YOU to tell a soldier that his behavior is unwarranted? This man has spent 6 fucking years in a combat zone. Six YEARS. Do you have ANY IOTA of an understanding what that means? He has OBVIOUSLY lost his grip on sound and sane judgment. Everybody here but you can see that.

Quote:
Also, if this man is a victim, which I will agree with you he is in many ways, then we both know who is responsible victimising him, the US military. Or we could say the US government. There is enough blame to go around on this one sure.
Good fucking job, Sternn. I'm really glad you can exploit the suffering of thousands of soldiers and civilians to stick your nose up at the United States.
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Old 03-29-2012, 06:12 AM   #47
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It's not 'debt', he ran a ponzi scam to steal money from elderly couples. It's restitution owed for a crime he committed.

That was all before he had the 'epiphany' that led him to join the military...right after he was convicted and told he had to pay the money or go to jail.

Just pointing out before he killed all those innocent women and children he already had a history of being a bad person with a total lack of empathy for anyone but himself.

Who robs the elderly of their life savings? What kinda person does that? What goes through the mind of a man who knowing lies to an elderly couple, to their faces, while he empties their bank account to fund his lavish lifestyle? Takes a special sort of person with a certain sort of mentality to be able to to that and then just walk away from it.

The fact the same person then later lost it and summarily executed unarmed women and children while they slept in their homes doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. He obviously is able to disconnect himself from any human emotions and has no problem putting his needs over those of anyone else. It is very apparently his drive to satiate his own desires outweighs his compassion as a human being.

There is a pattern there if you want to see it or not.
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Old 03-29-2012, 06:50 PM   #48
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Sternn likes to believe that America is a special kind of evil, that's it.

By the very nature of war, we dehumanize those we're fighting. We did it at home when we supported the war, and the soldiers have to be the ones to act out that dehumanization. We'd like to think we'd act differently, but the thing is anybody can do it. I've read even non-combatants like journalists and anthropologists lash out violently after being witness to war zones. This is the nature of war and the consequences of forgetting that every damn generation.
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Old 03-29-2012, 07:37 PM   #49
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It's not 'debt', he ran a ponzi scam to steal money from elderly couples. It's restitution owed for a crime he committed.
What's a term for the money or service that a person owes somebody else?

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That was all before he had the 'epiphany' that led him to join the military...right after he was convicted and told he had to pay the money or go to jail.
Also a month after the terrorists attacks on the world trade center. I know that you don't understand a fucking thing about patriotism, Sternn, but try to follow along with me: If he wanted to dodge that responsibility and didn't give a shit about the most common reason that service members entered the military after that event, WHY the fuck would he be willing to die for it if he didn't have to? He could have EASILY joined the coast guard, the navy, or the air force. More then that, he could have chosen a safe occupation that didn't place himself in danger. But instead he chose to join THE ARMY as AN INFANTRYMAN, knowing full well that he was going to see combat. What you're saying doesn't make any fucking sense.

Quote:
Just pointing out before he killed all those innocent women and children he already had a history of being a bad person with a total lack of empathy for anyone but himself.

Who robs the elderly of their life savings? What kinda person does that? What goes through the mind of a man who knowing lies to an elderly couple, to their faces, while he empties their bank account to fund his lavish lifestyle? Takes a special sort of person with a certain sort of mentality to be able to to that and then just walk away from it.

The fact the same person then later lost it and summarily executed unarmed women and children while they slept in their homes doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. He obviously is able to disconnect himself from any human emotions and has no problem putting his needs over those of anyone else. It is very apparently his drive to satiate his own desires outweighs his compassion as a human being.
Are you fucking kidding me? Seriously. I want to know what the fuck is wrong with you. Are you playing at Jesus on a high horse, or are you literally so under developed that extreme black and white is the only way you can see the world? There is a world of difference between being stealing from somebody and a mass murderer.

Before you say anything else, I want you to tell me what you think its like to go to war for half a decade.

Quote:
There is a pattern there if you want to see it or not.
The only pattern I see is that you love to use any kind of ammunition you can to look down on America. I honestly don't think you give a shit that a man shot over a dozen people to death, just that it furthers your bullshit.

You're a dumbass bigot sure.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:49 AM   #50
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You sure are going out of your way to protect a man who murdered 17 innocent women and children.

I agree we might be able to define some of the causes, but even if we do attribute some of his actions to his personal life experiences it does not excuse his behaviour, as you are ferociously trying to do with your responses.

Child molesters nine times out of ten were abused themselves. Kids who grow up to be involved in various types of criminality usually come from homes where the same sort of criminality was happening. It doesn't excuse their behaviour.

Per your comments about him going into infantry, I would counter that if he was on the run from the law and looking to get into the military as fast as possible he signed up and took whatever position was open and could get him to boot camp the fastest. You know as well as I do that with the delayed entry programme they put off some of the more popular jobs for up to two years, yet let people who want to join and go into infantry ship out in a matter of weeks if not days.

The whole thing stinks due to his criminal past. As I said previously, maybe he did overnight become patriotic, but the fact he was able to join and get away from paying his criminal restitution and avoid jail at the same time must have played some part in his decision, just as you claim his other life experiences must have played some part in his decision to murder all those people.

You can't discount some of his motives in one case and then claim the exact same type of motivation was the primary factor in another.

I am willing to agree maybe patriotism did play a part, but you cannot discount that fact his criminal issues also played a part. What we really are disagreeing on is how much each factor played into his decisions.

Do you think he should simply be able to walk away after killing so many innocent people because he was suffering from a mental condition?

Are all veterans of wars then no longer liable for their own actions? Can they quite literally, get away with murder and blame it on the fact they went to war? Does this work for troops of the opposing army if say some Afghanis or Iraqis come to America and then go house to house killing people? Should they as well get a free pass and we just let them walk? Do you think the American public would allow that?

Much like people in America who kill, their lawyers claim they had abusive childhoods, lived in rough neighborhoods, have lived a hard live in general, does that excuse their behaviour? Not in American courts. Not in any courts around the world actually. Explaining behaviour and justifying it are two separate issues you seem to be conflating.
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