Gothic.net News Horror Gothic Lifestyle Fiction Movies Books and Literature Dark TV VIP Horror Professionals Professional Writing Tips Links Gothic Forum




Go Back   Gothic.net Community > Boards > Literature

Literature Please come visit. People get upset, write poetry about it, and post it here. Sometimes we also talk about books.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-18-2008, 08:28 AM   #1
korinna5555
 
korinna5555's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NoVA
Posts: 5,291
Feminist analysis of Hamlet

I'm addressing the virgin/whore dichotomy, as well as a general feminist critique. I'm focusing more on Ophelia, because she's more fun
If anyone could help me with more, that's be great.



So far I have these topics to go over in my essay:

Gertrude: betraying whore, not a good mother, greedy, power hungry, lustful, scapegoat

Ophelia: seeming virgin, weak-minded, obeys her father without question, objectified by all, treated with less dignity than Laertes (be true to thine self), female insanity, “I think nothing, my Lord”, Ophelia as the feminine (weak) side of Hamlet who must die, Hamlet’s past explored but not Ophelia’s, “flower-speak” and lack of direct confrontation, pregnany (?),
korinna5555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 09:57 AM   #2
Underwater Ophelia
 
Underwater Ophelia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Earth.
Posts: 8,013
This is so overdone.

Anyway, if you want to be a feminist about it...slam them, don't be a pussy about it.

Ophelia was a plot device. That's all. She wasn't even a real character. That's not because the play is sexist, it's because a plot device was needed, and Ophelia fit.
Underwater Ophelia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 09:59 AM   #3
Despanan
 
Despanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sugar Hill
Posts: 3,881
Everybody dies in Hamlet. I'd make sure to contrast Ophilia's death with the other characters, as she is the only one who takes her own life.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KontanKarite
I promote radical change through my actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger
I have chugged more than ten epic boners.
Despanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 02:48 PM   #4
korinna5555
 
korinna5555's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NoVA
Posts: 5,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia
This is so overdone.

Anyway, if you want to be a feminist about it...slam them, don't be a pussy about it.

Ophelia was a plot device. That's all. She wasn't even a real character. That's not because the play is sexist, it's because a plot device was needed, and Ophelia fit.
Hey, it's the assignment I was given.
I have to ham it up for this bitch-teacher.
korinna5555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 05:08 PM   #5
gothicusmaximus
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oph
Ophelia was a plot device. That's all. She wasn't even a real character. That's not because the play is sexist, it's because a plot device was needed, and Ophelia fit.
That's fucking preposterous. William Shakespeare does not put superfluous characters in his plays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by korinna5555
I'm addressing the virgin/whore dichotomy, as well as a general feminist critique. I'm focusing more on Ophelia, because she's more fun
If anyone could help me with more, that's be great.



So far I have these topics to go over in my essay:

Gertrude: betraying whore, not a good mother, greedy, power hungry, lustful, scapegoat

Ophelia: seeming virgin, weak-minded, obeys her father without question, objectified by all, treated with less dignity than Laertes (be true to thine self), female insanity, “I think nothing, my Lord”, Ophelia as the feminine (weak) side of Hamlet who must die, Hamlet’s past explored but not Ophelia’s, “flower-speak” and lack of direct confrontation, pregnany (?),
Ophelia is not pregnant, she is a virgin. Shakespeare's plays take place in a Christian moral universe-- on the whole, characters are either married or virgins. Furthermore, she doesn't obey her father without question. She is torn between love and duty, if she weren't she wouldn't have gone insane.

There's nothing to suggest that Gertrude wasn't a good mother. Someone had to raise Hamlet while his father was off killing poles and such.

You should probably talk about how Laertes wants to fuck Ophelia, and Hamlet wants to fuck both Gertrude and Ophelia.
gothicusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 05:21 PM   #6
korinna5555
 
korinna5555's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NoVA
Posts: 5,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
Ophelia is not pregnant
Act 2 Scene 2, Hamlet to Polonious: 'Conception is a blessing, but as your daughter may conceive - friend look to 't.'

Act 3 Scene 1, Hamlet to Ophelia: 'Why wouldst thou be a breeder of sinners?'

Act 4 Scene 5: 'There's rue for you. And here's some for me.'
--rue is abortion-inducing
korinna5555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 06:17 PM   #7
Underwater Ophelia
 
Underwater Ophelia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Earth.
Posts: 8,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
That's fucking preposterous. William Shakespeare does not put superfluous characters in his plays.


.
Idiot--I didn't say she was pointless, I said she was a plot device.
Underwater Ophelia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 06:40 PM   #8
gothicusmaximus
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by korinna5555
Act 2 Scene 2, Hamlet to Polonious: 'Conception is a blessing, but as your daughter may conceive - friend look to 't.'

Act 3 Scene 1, Hamlet to Ophelia: 'Why wouldst thou be a breeder of sinners?'

Act 4 Scene 5: 'There's rue for you. And here's some for me.'
--rue is abortion-inducing
None of this mean she's pregnant. Just that she might eventually have children.
The rue one is particularly irrelevant, Shakespeare mentions rue in various other plays (like Richard II) in contexts that could never be imagined to involve pregnancy.

Hamlet couldn't have impregnated Ophelia because Hamlet is TERRIFIED of sex. "Why wouldst thou be a breeder of sinners" is part of this. Sexual stuntedness is a critical part of his character, to say he knocked a chick up is to undermine him completely.

This is Ophelia in Act 2, scene 1.

"My lord, as I was sewing in my closet,
Lord Hamlet, with his doublet all unbraced;
No hat upon his head; his stockings foul'd,
Ungarter'd, and down-gyved to his ancle;
Pale as his shirt; his knees knocking each other;
And with a look so piteous in purport
As if he had been loosed out of hell
To speak of horrors,--he comes before me."

She continues...

"He took me by the wrist and held me hard;
Then goes he to the length of all his arm;
And, with his other hand thus o'er his brow,
He falls to such perusal of my face
As he would draw it. Long stay'd he so;
At last, a little shaking of mine arm
And thrice his head thus waving up and down,
He raised a sigh so piteous and profound
As it did seem to shatter all his bulk
And end his being: that done, he lets me go:
And, with his head over his shoulder turn'd,"

Hamlet comes into Ophelia's room, his pants around his ankles. He knows Ophelia wants him, she'd fuck him if he were into it. Instead, he stays as far away from her as he can while still touching her, shakes and sighs (possibly blowing his load), then runs away.

Hamlet is a character whose pathos is derived from his inability to make an impossible choice. "To be or not to be", Kill Claudius or don't kill Claudius, marry Ophelia or cling to the childish idea that he can marry his mother.
He says "Get thee to a nunnery" because he can't bear it.

When exactly did Hamlet get Ophelia pregnant anyway? He's only been back from school for two months. Presumably a canny medieval Dane might be able to see pregnancy by now, if they'd fucked immediately upon his return, but Hamlet and Ophelia haven't really had the chance to talk about it.
gothicusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 06:52 PM   #9
gothicusmaximus
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia
Idiot--I didn't say she was pointless, I said she was a plot device.
All characters drive the plot. A 'plot device' implies a one-dimensional character who serves only in that capacity. Look up plot device, you'll find references to Deus Ex Machina, James Bond Gadgets, or The Philosopher's Stone in Harry Potter-- no one is going to mention Shakespeare's Ophelia.

By the way, did you call me a little while ago? My voicemail is broken.
gothicusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 07:49 PM   #10
Godslayer Jillian
 
Godslayer Jillian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
All characters drive the plot.
What about the porter in Macbeth?
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.

I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
Godslayer Jillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 08:59 PM   #11
Mr. Filth
 
Mr. Filth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Thelema
Posts: 765
Hamlet ROCKS!!!

Great story! Everybody dies in the end but not before serving for great plot development on a story of intrigue and deception within a royal hierarchy! ROCK ON! \m/
Mr. Filth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 09:35 PM   #12
Darth Nihilus
 
Darth Nihilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Filth
Hamlet ROCKS!!!

Great story! Everybody dies in the end but not before serving for great plot development on a story of intrigue and deception within a royal hierarchy! ROCK ON! \m/
Charming, that contributed absolutely nothing.

I'll agree with Gothicus on one point, Shakespeare doesn't make superfluous characters.
Darth Nihilus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2008, 10:16 PM   #13
Mr. Filth
 
Mr. Filth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Thelema
Posts: 765
Aww. Hold on. Let me get in 'the mode'

Hamlet, Shakespeare's seventh tragedy is a tale of deception, murder and suicide within the royal hierarchy. As with most Shakespeareian tales, many political and social parallels can be made as observation of life in times of Shakespeare. Many notes on feminism can be drawn through this play, as with his others.

The character of Ophelia particularly is of interest. Her feminine demeanor can be seen as being that of preferance for men of this age. Though her dependance and emotional weakness also shows the drawback of such a personality. Her lack of ability to defend herself or take part in the treachery at hand leads to her inevitable demise through suicide while the more dastardly and cunning of women live on(for a time).

The question at hand being, does Ophelia's death serve as a warning to the ignorant and romantic longings of a young girl's heart, or does she remain the one redeemable, honored presence within the chain of events? Would one rather die and be loathed, or die and be treasured? That is the question.

Better?
Mr. Filth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 10:12 AM   #14
gothicusmaximus
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jillian
What about the porter in Macbeth?
He's an extra who appears in one scene. His purpose is to open the door for Macduff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Filth
Better?
No... shallow and elementary, actually.
gothicusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 10:18 AM   #15
Mr. Filth
 
Mr. Filth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Thelema
Posts: 765
Better elementary than pedantic. Off the top of my head too. I've never read Hamlet either. You do one.
Mr. Filth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 10:25 AM   #16
Mr. Filth
 
Mr. Filth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Thelema
Posts: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
No, Mr. Filth. I cannot be arsed to waste my valuable time on such lowly and unimportant things as humoring you. I have the internets to save!
You're so jaded and cool!
Mr. Filth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 11:54 AM   #17
HumanePain
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: the concrete and steel beehive of Southern California
Posts: 7,385
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Despanan
I'd make sure to contrast Ophilia's death with the other characters, as she is the only one who takes her own life.
No she wasn't: the queen knew the chalice contained poison intended for Hamlet but she drank it anyway.
__________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK2WJd5bXFg
Charlie Chaplin The Greatest Speech in History


HumanePain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 01:29 PM   #18
Underwater Ophelia
 
Underwater Ophelia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Earth.
Posts: 8,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
All characters drive the plot. A 'plot device' implies a one-dimensional character who serves only in that capacity. Look up plot device, you'll find references to Deus Ex Machina, James Bond Gadgets, or The Philosopher's Stone in Harry Potter-- no one is going to mention Shakespeare's Ophelia.

By the way, did you call me a little while ago? My voicemail is broken.
That's what I meant...nevermind.

And yeah. I called you a while ago.
Are you home for winter break?
Underwater Ophelia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 04:52 PM   #19
gothicusmaximus
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia
That's what I meant...nevermind.

And yeah. I called you a while ago.
Are you home for winter break?
I go home on Saturday.
gothicusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 05:53 PM   #20
gothicusmaximus
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Filth
Better elementary than pedantic. Off the top of my head too. I've never read Hamlet either. You do one.
I too can write a bullshit 'analysis' of a play, that vacillates between using words to say nothing and being flat out wrong, off the top of my head. Also, are you bragging about having never read Hamlet? Bravo, dude, you're uneducated. May I ask how you know whether or not it ROCKS then?

If you want to fucking challenge me, fine.

While Shakespeare's Hamlet is focused primarily on the struggle of a "little man" to actualize himself in conversation with models and myths of masculinity, the nearly boundless thematic breadth of The Bard's most enduring drama ensures that feminists scholars are hardly at a loss for material of relevance to their field. Consider Gertrude, who marries the brother of her late husband, Hamlet's father. According to the paradigm in which the protagonist operates, this woman is a treacherous whore, guilty of incest, but a judge less blinded by a medieval conception of gender might indeed see fit to acquit her. She is, by no account, aware of Claudius' hand in the death of the departed king, and so cannot be judged to share his culpability for that bitter crime. She might be rebuked as ambitious, but there exists no reason to assume this when that she feels true attraction to Claudius is equally plausible. A level-headed ruler who employs diplomacy rather than pursuing bloodshed at every opportunity would doubtlessly be a refreshing change from her prior husband. Is Gertrude to be condemned, or is she merely a modern woman trapped in the form of a medieval Danish queen, taking steps to have what she wants, to be with whom she wants? Shakespeare himself weighs in on the issue, when Hamlet's father stipulates that his son's vengeance not extend to the queen-- by the Ghost's own word, he is "For the day confined to fast in fires/Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature/Are burnt and purged away", and only God could have pardoned him from purgatory to spur his son to vengeance. Gertrude is absolved by the highest judge.

I'm bored now, but I could go on if you're not moved. What I wrote isn't quality or anything, but it has 70 times the merit of that bullshit you spewed-- this is what comes 'off the top of' intelligent 'heads'.

Quote:
You're so jaded and cool!
Indeed, I am jaded and cool, but your homunculus expressed a desire to 'save the internets', which is certainly not a behavior a jaded person would enact. Perhaps you don't know what jaded means? This may be a consequence of your 'I haven't read Hamlet, so I'm cool!" problem.
gothicusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 10:12 PM   #21
Despanan
 
Despanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sugar Hill
Posts: 3,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanePain
No she wasn't: the queen knew the chalice contained poison intended for Hamlet but she drank it anyway.
I don't think that's correct. It's been a while since I've read the play, but I always thought Gertrude drinking the poison was accidental.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KontanKarite
I promote radical change through my actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger
I have chugged more than ten epic boners.
Despanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 10:17 PM   #22
gothicusmaximus
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
Yeah, Humane, where did you get that idea?
gothicusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 11:04 PM   #23
Sir Canvas Corpsey
 
Sir Canvas Corpsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,424
I don't think there could be anything worse for me, than having to write on Shakespeare, not only is his work shoved down your throat by english teachers, but you're more than likely in a class who have trouble breaking the language barrier even on the level of "thou".

I personally have never seen or read a work by him that I have enjoyed, I'm not doubting or discrediting him as a writer but he simply does not interest me.
__________________
“Lots of ways to help people. Sometimes heal patients; sometimes execute dangerous people. Either way helps.”
Sir Canvas Corpsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2008, 11:23 PM   #24
Mr. Filth
 
Mr. Filth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Thelema
Posts: 765
Good job, Gothicus. I liked that. I'm not moved though. Continue.

I'm not uneducated. Just having a bit of fun. When you get older you'll realize it's possible to balance your intellect with a bit of innocuous banter. The results can be amusing. One of these results happens to be the upsetting of fussy little teenage pseudo-intellectuals who are still struggling with their own intellect to the point that it gets in the way of their personal happiness. Hang in there, through suffering comes wisdom. You're on the right track.

Maybe it isn't your desire to save the internet but it's probably what is going to happen. Simply through your cool and jaded presence pushing back against all the contribution of shallow and elementary halfassed quasi-essays floating about; The internet shall be saved! Just don't let any moisture on that dry sense of humor of yours.

I'm seriously surprised you took up the challenge. Way to go on writing a, what number did you pull out of your ass again, oh yeah 70 times better essay than a guy who never read Hamlet. Way to lower the glass ceiling for yourself.

In no way shape or form did I give the impression that not reading hamlet is what makes me cool. Though it would be impressive if you were able to connect the dots in a way that made it appear that way.
Mr. Filth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 12:13 PM   #25
gothicusmaximus
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Filth
Good job, Gothicus. I liked that. I'm not moved though. Continue.
Maybe in a little while. You were moved enough to say 'good job'.

Quote:
I'm not uneducated. Just having a bit of fun. When you get older you'll realize it's possible to balance your intellect with a bit of innocuous banter. The results can be amusing. One of these results happens to be the upsetting of fussy little teenage pseudo-intellectuals who are still struggling with their own intellect to the point that it gets in the way of their personal happiness. Hang in there, through suffering comes wisdom. You're on the right track.
Balance your intellect? What intellect? So far, I just see inocuous banter and a catastrophically failed effort to appear as if you have something of value to contribute to a discussion on a play you've admittedly never read.
You know, I'm going to be 20 really soon, I wonder if I'm going to stop drawing fire for being a teenager then. Moreover, the phrase pseudo-intellectual implies that I am pretending to be an intellectual, which I am by no means doing. Although to truthfully claim I have actually read and understood a work of literature may seem like presumptuous posturing to you, I don't think this entitles me to membership in any sort of elite intelligentsia.
I come off as unhappy? Really? That's strange. I'm actually quite pleased that people exist who would spew the tripe you wrote then sit back contentedly and believe themselves to have 'sounded smart'. Fewer peers for me, less competition.

Quote:
Maybe it isn't your desire to save the internet but it's probably what is going to happen. Simply through your cool and jaded presence pushing back against all the contribution of shallow and elementary halfassed quasi-essays floating about; The internet shall be saved! Just don't let any moisture on that dry sense of humor of yours.
I alone simply cannot stand against the raging tide of shallow and elementary halfassed quasi-essays that issues forth from cyberspace, and even if I were, by some miracle, I'd soon after be overwhelmed by the surge of clumsy, puerile sarcasm that followed. When you're jaded like me you'll realize this.

Quote:
I'm seriously surprised you took up the challenge. Way to go on writing a, what number did you pull out of your ass again, oh yeah 70 times better essay than a guy who never read Hamlet. Way to lower the glass ceiling for yourself.
I'll have you know, that number is the result of scrupulous scientific measurement of my half-assed thesis against your half-assed "thesis". Technically my work was 71.636 times superior to your own, but I rounded down for the sake of concision and to spare your feelings.

Quote:
In no way shape or form did I give the impression that not reading hamlet is what makes me cool. Though it would be impressive if you were able to connect the dots in a way that made it appear that way.
Dot 1: "Better elementary than pedantic" This implies that your... thing, though elementary, is better than the pedantic essay that someone else might right.
Dot 2: "Off the top of my head too" This implies that your 'accomplishment' is magnified by the fact that you wrote your 'essay' quickly and without stopping to think.
Dot 3: "I've never read Hamlet either" Once again, your feat is made even greater, as you came up with all that nonsense without even having read the play you're discussing. How cool.

I hereby connect these dots. Not too impressive an endeavor by my standard, but whatever does it for you.
gothicusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:08 PM.