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Old 06-12-2011, 08:39 AM   #26
Grausamkeit
 
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SoD, a better response to Desp would've been:

You don't want that jelly!

My mom would totally flatten you, go ahead!

I hope my mom enjoys you better than your mom likes my dog!


Or something similar. Personally, I have always laughed at the idea of a guy my age getting with my mom. I love my mom, but she would give Desp nightmares, so I would tell him to 'have at it'.




Jill, I don't know what to say about what seems like you supporting Mao. I can understand some of your points, but it's not enough to sway me to support his ideas.
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Old 06-12-2011, 11:22 AM   #27
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Alan has a great point.

It always irked me in Western Civ when we were talking about the communist revolution in Russia and it would say that it killed millions of people and yet didn't establish a context or a motive or a reason for all the killings.

Maybe I'm an extremist, but in a Communist country, it would make sense that you would execute your political adversaries that you couldn't reconcile any differences with.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:35 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Grausamkeit View Post
SoD, a better response to Desp would've been:

You don't want that jelly!

My mom would totally flatten you, go ahead!

I hope my mom enjoys you better than your mom likes my dog!


Or something similar. Personally, I have always laughed at the idea of a guy my age getting with my mom. I love my mom, but she would give Desp nightmares, so I would tell him to 'have at it'.




Jill, I don't know what to say about what seems like you supporting Mao. I can understand some of your points, but it's not enough to sway me to support his ideas.
Touche ma'am.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:03 PM   #29
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Bump, because we're discussing the Cultural Revolution this week at my job.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:45 PM   #30
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Alan has a great point.

It always irked me in Western Civ when we were talking about the communist revolution in Russia and it would say that it killed millions of people and yet didn't establish a context or a motive or a reason for all the killings.

Maybe I'm an extremist, but in a Communist country, it would make sense that you would execute your political adversaries that you couldn't reconcile any differences with.
Yeah, I know this is old, but the millions we're talking about weren't political adversaries but citizens worked and starved to death, isn't it? I find when discussing this people critique Stalinism more than Lenin killing dissenters, which from what I understand was in the thousands, not millions, and few people seem to know the particulars.

What I find odd about the Chinese revolution is that in high school history, they didn't say jack shit about the terror of the Japanese occupation and the corruption and heinous crimes of the KMT.
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:10 PM   #31
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When I consider that China is now enjoying a period where vast numbers of its population are seeing a rise in their standard of living, and that this is happening by way of capitalism (albeit a hybrid communist rule/capitalist economy) in the same way the United States created a large middle class in the majority of its population, then I can't dismiss the observation that capitalism has been more effective in a shorter period of time than communism, in terms of improving the standard of living for the greatest number.

Am I misinterpreting something here? Seems pretty clear. Of course there are abuses and defects in both systems but it seems the better praxis has been capitalism.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:29 PM   #32
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When I consider that China is now enjoying a period where vast numbers of its population are seeing a rise in their standard of living, and that this is happening by way of capitalism (albeit a hybrid communist rule/capitalist economy) in the same way the United States created a large middle class in the majority of its population, then I can't dismiss the observation that capitalism has been more effective in a shorter period of time than communism, in terms of improving the standard of living for the greatest number.

Am I misinterpreting something here? Seems pretty clear. Of course there are abuses and defects in both systems but it seems the better praxis has been capitalism.
There is an emerging middle class, but but the gap between rich and poor is expanding. In factories in special economic zones, workers are commingling suicide, being thrown out in the street if they get injured, have their pay checks withheld, all so we can get cheap crap at Wal-Mart. In those zones its the picture of what is wrong with capitalism. The revolution is betrayed and there is no equality. Also, before the revolution the KMT sold the Chinese out to the Japanese to make money. Isn't that pure capitalism?

I finished the Dispossessed last night and it gave me a lot to think about. What right do I have to eat like a pig when so many starve? Does my gluttony mean that capitalism works, that its best that I stuff myself while others die for my material wealth? I'd rather not have a car and live in a dorm than horde wealth and let others go without.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:14 PM   #33
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What's commingling suicide?

Sorry.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:57 PM   #34
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That's bizarre, I specifically remember picking "committing" in spell check because I only put in one t originally.

Spellcheck gives me the false sense of security D:
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:55 PM   #35
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I chuckled.
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:58 PM   #36
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Am I misinterpreting something here? Seems pretty clear. Of course there are abuses and defects in both systems but it seems the better praxis has been capitalism.
Ha Ha Ha

"Abuses and defects" don't even begin to describe what capitalism does.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:39 PM   #37
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When I consider that China is now enjoying a period where vast numbers of its population are seeing a rise in their standard of living, and that this is happening by way of capitalism (albeit a hybrid communist rule/capitalist economy) in the same way the United States created a large middle class in the majority of its population, then I can't dismiss the observation that capitalism has been more effective in a shorter period of time than communism, in terms of improving the standard of living for the greatest number.

Am I misinterpreting something here? Seems pretty clear. Of course there are abuses and defects in both systems but it seems the better praxis has been capitalism.
Yes, the farm collectives proved to be ineffective and once China switched to manufacturing textiles for export things started to turn around.

The question I have for Alan is this: Has modern China betrayed the ideas of the founders? The country is repressive politically but there are free markets, with heavy investment abroad and international exchange. Is that the communist way to you? The communist way is basically the concept of central economic planning....so yes China is still communist. And besides no country can survive being cut off from the world economic system of trade and import/export, currency values and loans.

And there are still classes, some would say the class divide has grown bigger because while the cities are industrialized the country is still left without modern infrastructure.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:51 PM   #38
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You seem to be misguided about what communism is, let alone Maoism which is even less understood.
'Has modern China betrayed the ideas of the founders?' That's sort of a question that doesn't make sense in the Chinese context and is mired by American culture. Both Mao and Xiaoping were huge leaders in the Great March. There was no ideological consensus among the leaders of the Chinese Civil War, so which founder are we talking about?
Has modern China betrayed the Cultural Revolution, though? Yes. Completely.

'The communist way is basically the concept of central economic planning....so yes China is still communist.'
Uh, no, the communist way is NOT central economic planning. You're new here, so I understand if you don't know this, but there's nothing inherent in communism to demand central planning.
The ARE some Marxist forms that demand central panning and in each tendency it goes to different extents, but the funny thing is that if there is one thing one cannot attribute to Maoism it's precisely the idea of central planning. Centralization is antipodal to Maoism.

Finally, Maoism never wanted isolationism. That's the whole point of its Three Worlds Theory, that the Third World should unite against both American and Soviet imperialism.
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:18 PM   #39
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So communism has decentralized power away from the emperors and placed more power in the hands of the people in the form of the party organ, and has now evolved into a hybrid nation. If we take a long term view, a view of China in evolution (no, I did not forget the "r") what are the possible futures? Again, I will use the USA in comparison.

The USA rode the capitalist wave to become a superpower, and although it began some imperialist ventures it evolved into promoting democracy and freedom (America definition), and a hell of a lot of marketing. This has resulted in some increased democracy around the world but has its failures too in underdeveloped nations where there were power "vacuums" (tug-o-wars really).

In the China scenario, it rises to become a superpower using capitalism, but what does it spread, culturally and politically? Once it has achieved stability and success, where does it go?

For a superpower to win the hearts and minds of the world, there must be a common vision and demonstrated theme in sync with the masses. For the USA it was freedom and the capitalist work ethic with rich rewards.

What message can China carry?

The truth is, it missed an opportunity: when the world economy was looted by greed and selfish shortsightedness, China and Maoism/communism could have piqued the interest of the disaffected, but its hypocrisy sabotaged that message. Communism controlling burgeoning capitalism? China cornering rare earth markets? China diluted its potential with the almighty dollar.
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:20 PM   #40
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I really can't blame you for not knowing much about Maoism, but all you guys are piquing at my pet peeve because of it.
Maoism ISN'T the ideology of the Communist Party of China. Maoism arose through the Cultural Revolution AGAINST the Communist Party of China.

I believe with just knowing that bit of fact, you will understand why the context of yours and FoF's questions are askew.
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:36 PM   #41
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(Makes it a goal to read about Maoism).
What books do you recommend for one to become introduced to Maoism?
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:45 AM   #42
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The USA rode the capitalist wave to become a superpower, and although it began some imperialist ventures it evolved into promoting democracy and freedom (America definition), and a hell of a lot of marketing. This has resulted in some increased democracy around the world but has its failures too in underdeveloped nations where there were power "vacuums" (tug-o-wars really).
You should probably also read up on Capitalism too HP. For instance in the 70's The Nixon administration organized a Military coup which removed Chile's democratically-elected president and replaced him with a military dictator...all because the president was a socialist and Nixon wanted to transform Chile's economy via Chicago-School "free market" capitalism:

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In the 1970 election, Senator Salvador Allende of the Socialist Party of Chile (part of the "Popular Unity" coalition which included the Communists, Radicals, Social-Democrats, dissident Christian Democrats, the Popular Unitary Action Movement, and the Independent Popular Action),[29] achieved a partial majority in a plurality of votes in a three-way contest, followed by candidates Radomiro Tomic for the Christian Democrat Party and Jorge Alessandri for the Conservative Party. Allende was not elected with an absolute majority, receiving fewer than 35% of votes. It became a war of classes, motivated by the central government. Despite pressure from the United States government, the Chilean Congress conducted a runoff vote between the leading candidates, Allende and former president Jorge Alessandri and keeping with tradition, chose Allende by a vote of 153 to 35. Frei refused to form an alliance with Alessandri to oppose Allende, on the grounds that the Christian Democrats were a workers party and could not make common cause with the right-wing.[34][35]

An economic depression that began in 1972 was exacerbated by capital flight, plummeting private investment, and withdrawal of bank deposits in response to Allende's socialist program. Production fell and unemployment rose. Allende adopted measures including price freezes, wage increases, and tax reforms, to increase consumer spending and redistribute income downward.[36] Joint public-private public works projects helped reduce unemployment.[37][page*needed] Much of the banking sector was nationalized. Many enterprises within the copper, coal, iron, nitrate, and steel industries were expropriated, nationalized, or subjected to state intervention. Industrial output increased sharply and unemployment fell during the Allende administration's first year.[37]


Augusto Pinochet
Allende's program included advancement of workers' interests,[37][38] replacing the judicial system with "socialist legality",[39] nationalization of banks and forcing others to bankruptcy,[40] and strengthening "popular militias" known as MIR.[40] Started under former President Frei, the Popular Unity platform also called for nationalization of Chile's major copper mines in the form of a constitutional amendment. The measure was passed unanimously by Congress. As a result,[41] the Richard Nixon administration organized and inserted secret operatives in Chile, in order to quickly destabilize Allende’s government.[42] In addition, American financial pressure restricted international economic credit to Chile.[43] The economic problems were also exacerbated by Allende's public spending which was financed mostly by printing money and poor credit ratings given by commercial banks.[44] Simultaneously, opposition media, politicians, business guilds and other organizations helped to accelerate a campaign of domestic political and economical destabilization, some of which was helped by the United States.[43][45] By early 1973, inflation was out of control. The crippled economy was further battered by prolonged and sometimes simultaneous strikes by physicians, teachers, students, truck owners, copper workers, and the small business class. On 26 May 1973, Chile’s Supreme Court, which was opposed to Allende's government, unanimously denounced the Allende disruption of the legality of the nation. Although illegal under the Chilean constitution, the court supported and strengthened Pinochet's seizure of power.[40][46]

Finally, a military coup overthrew Allende on 11 September 1973. As the armed forces bombarded the presidential palace, Allende apparently committed suicide. A military junta, led by General Augusto Pinochet Ugarte, took over control of the country. The first years of the regime were marked by human rights violations. On October 1973, at least 72 people were murdered by the Caravan of Death. According to the Rettig Report and Valech Commission, at least 2,115 were killed, and at least 27,265 were tortured (including 88 children younger than 12 years old). A new Constitution was approved by a controversial plebiscite on 11 September 1980, and General Pinochet became president of the republic for an 8-year term. After Pinochet obtained rule of the country, several hundred committed Chilean revolutionaries joined the Sandinista army in Nicaragua, guerrilla forces in Argentina or training camps in Cuba, Eastern Europe and Northern Africa.
As you were most likely alive and working then, YOUR tax-dollars went to funding a regime by this monster.

Ain't capitalism great? SO MUCH FREEDOM FOR SO MANY PEOPLE*


*except the dead, tortured, and enslaved one's, but who cares about them?
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Old 04-21-2012, 11:31 AM   #43
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Don't forget Carter and Thatcher armed Pol Pot to spite the Vietnamese.
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Old 04-21-2012, 02:29 PM   #44
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What books do you recommend for one to become introduced to Maoism?
Yeah man. A good and relatively short book is The Communist Hypothesis by Alain Badiou. It deals with three issues, one of them being the Cultural Revolution.
It's a good place to start, although a notable fraction of it deals with abstract philosophy that even I didn't care much about it. Still, it's a relatively short read and a nice introduction.

Besides that, after this sunday I'll explain a little more about it myself. I'm just waiting till my seminar is over.
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:06 PM   #45
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There are a lot of things the CIA did in the name of anti communism that is just baffling today. Like the removal of President Arbenz of Guatemala after he stepped on the toes of the United Fruit Company (back in the 50s) or Reagan's secret funding of the contras in Nicaragua...

So back to the Cultural Revoultion....the effort seems to me to be a movement started by Mao Zedong to consolidate power. The purging of those deemed too capitalist was fanatical and disruptive. It seems to me to have been Zedong's play in a power struggle against more moderate Deng Xiaoping and and Lio Shaoqi.

And the more moderate version won out in the end. So what was good about the Cultural Revolution? That is what I'm asking.
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Old 04-22-2012, 05:24 PM   #46
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I actually recorded today's seminar dealing with a lot of these questions. Do you guys know where I could upload the audio file or what to do so I can share it with you guys?
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:58 AM   #47
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I think I just became one.
I lol'd123
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:14 AM   #48
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I actually recorded today's seminar dealing with a lot of these questions. Do you guys know where I could upload the audio file or what to do so I can share it with you guys?
You maybe could match it with a picture and then upload the audio to youtube as a video.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:45 PM   #49
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Finally! I used Dropbox:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75319191/Maoism.mp3

Before you guys hear it, I have to say three things:
1) First of all, I apologize for the quality. It was an online seminar and El Paso doesn't have the bandwidth for such things, so it skips quite a bit.
2) I apologize if it's hard to follow. The seminars are two hours long so I condensed this to sound more like a lecture yet it's still like 40 minutes long. Equally as it was an online seminar, it had a slideshow and people were asking me questions throughout. You can't see the slideshow and don't hear the questions but I tried to edit it in such a way that it doesn't sound all over the place.
3) Finally, I apologize for how abruptly it ends. We had some audio issues so we used the chat for the last 15 minutes, so the audio doesn't have the conclusion or the part of New Democracy.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:57 PM   #50
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Also, yeah, I have a thick accent; I'm Mexican, I know I have an accent.
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