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Old 09-08-2011, 04:46 AM   #76
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Ideally, but they're a rare breed. Most goths cease to be goths once they get thin. Really, 90% of the world's thin goths can be found in music videos. But then, most of THEM aren't really goths, as their thinness attests.

Has a skinny goth ever been recorded in the wild, and the footage officially confirmed as genuine? I'll have to look it up.
Yes, I have not only seen them but have actually managed to lure several of them back to my lair where I proceeded to play them the sisters of mercy and have my wicked way.

Of course they didn't think they were goth but everyone else did.
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:54 AM   #77
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Dude, that's like those guys who say they saw Bigfoot. People try to believe them, but their point ALWAYS rests on either their word, or grainy, hoaxy-looking footage.
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Old 09-08-2011, 05:21 AM   #78
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And like those guys who claim to have been abducted by benevolent aliens who explained to them the erros of mankind, I'm gonna be smug about it.
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:12 AM   #79
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Ha! Hands up, that made me laugh.
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:25 AM   #80
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*checks waistline*

Oh good, I'm still Goth! *whew* I need you people to keep tabs on my musical tastes and fashion sense to validate my existence.
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:53 AM   #81
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How do we deal with the oppression of the female gaze? I have generally found women to be the more judgemental sex when it comes to assessing the attractiveness of others.
Yeah, but it all boils down to what society says men will find attractive, you know? I.E. women telling another woman she won't get laid if she doesn't lose weight, and I would argue even women's magazines really just cater to women's anxieties about how they fare under the male gaze.

In this thread I'm referring to "male gaze" as patriarchal ideas about female beauty, the notion that if you're a woman and you're not fuckable to men, you're irrelevant.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:11 AM   #82
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I don't know, there are definitely distinctions between what men want to see and what women shame each other for. I mean I might see a girl and think "yes please" and hear another girl say "she looks like a slut".

Of course the motivation for that might be the whole "ripping other people down to build yourself up" thing, but I think girl-on-girl criticism of appearance, while perhaps derived from the notion of appearance-as-value idea takes on different forms.

Of course when being evaluated as a sexual object then this of course is directly relevant. If a woman is truly willing to renounce that and all the secondary avenues of power it brings, then it really shouldn't be relevant to her at all. If you only care about for instance your contributions to science then it really shouldn't matter if someone calls you fat and a poor excuse for a woman (not like this doesn't happen to men) as long as you get your name on research papers.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:12 AM   #83
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I kinda get what you mean. I understand that a lot of beauty ideals ARE driven by men, for example, a lot of fashion designers are in fact men but I am curious as to whether it's actually men who translate those ideals into mainstream society or if it is in fact women who drive that translation.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:18 AM   #84
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a lot of fashion designers are in fact gay men
Fixed.

This is why catwalk models and page 3 models are rarely the same models
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:22 AM   #85
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Haha, that may be so.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:52 AM   #86
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I kinda get what you mean. I understand that a lot of beauty ideals ARE driven by men, for example, a lot of fashion designers are in fact men but I am curious as to whether it's actually men who translate those ideals into mainstream society or if it is in fact women who drive that translation.
"Male gaze" and patriarchy doesn't really mean that men are to blame for these standards, it means society is patriarchal and even women buy into that. Male gaze particularly refers to the assumption that heterosexual men are watching.

Like, when women say other women look like sluts. The assumption is she's trying to gain attention from men, cheaply and unfairly, and she'll probably get unwanted male attention (sexual assault) and deserve it. The female body is already sexualized by patriarchal standards, and we treat it as something you can misuse and have it backfire on you, rather than recognize that its a double standard.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:57 AM   #87
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I recognize that it is a double standard, however, I really feel that women are increasingly to blame for the double standard. They adhere to these ideals, which makes them acceptable to the wider audience. Now, I'm not saying that it's entirely the fault of women, I just really don't think it's entirely the fault of men either. If women are going to keep trying to live up these created ideals, then they will stick around no matter how hard the minority of women try to fight them.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:07 AM   #88
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Again, I didn't say at all that men are to blame for it, a lot of men don't like patriarchy either, and I know women buy into it and uphold it. In many ways women keep themselves oppressed, and I guess that's the really sinister thing about it all.

In relation to this thread, though, its mostly men shitting on women for not being wank material for them, like CC.
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:13 AM   #89
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Again, I didn't say at all that men are to blame for it, a lot of men don't like patriarchy either, and I know women buy into it and uphold it. In many ways women keep themselves oppressed, and I guess that's the really sinister thing about it all.

In relation to this thread, though, its mostly men shitting on women for not being wank material for them, like CC.
Well not quite. The men are saying the women aren't sexy, not that they're all-round worthless. And at the end of the day, that's really their call to make.
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:33 AM   #90
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Well not quite. The men are saying the women aren't sexy, not that they're all-round worthless. And at the end of the day, that's really their call to make.
Go back and reread the first page.
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:50 AM   #91
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Go back and reread the first page.
Fair enough aye.

But those guys aren't here to argue with so I'm arguing with whoever is.

In an abstract sense I think men are totally allowed to make judgement calls on the sexual desirability of women on whatever grounds they see fit.
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:10 PM   #92
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Talking about different types of women like they're Pokemon to collect kinda puts me off. And the way some people talk about CC is pretty juvenile and stupid and uncalled for, we don't talk that way even about members who are more stupid, probably more unattractive and less nice than CC. You might not be arguing with the people who were picking on her, but you are arguing to someone who was responding to that in the first place.
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:33 PM   #93
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First post ITT, even if it was meant as a joke

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This thread is disgusting. Look at you all pouring scorn on your own kind in a shallow effort to differentiate yourself. I have nothing but scorn for that.
I had no idea who CC was to begin with but I'm a smart guy and now I've figured out what was going on ITT, and targeting a specific person rather than a generalised group makes the whole thing even more pathetic.

Just thought I'd contribute by acknowledging there is a real phenomenon where girls who would otherwise be considered unattractive sometimes camp it up with excessive makeup/corsets/other peripherals (I'd provide examples but that would make me a hypocrite) and it's very obvious within "goth subculture" if I may be permitted to use the term.

Now there's nothing wrong with that per se, and while I suppose maybe it is horribly sexist of me I do also feel the need to point out that that isn't the whole story, and not everyone who's female and a "goth" is a hideous beast covering it up with makeup and PVC.

And while beauty is in the eye of the beholder, judging from her profile picture there are probably quite enough beholden to CC that it shouldn't put too much of a dent in her self esteem if there are a couple of haters on the internet.
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:47 PM   #94
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See now, I don't personally find CC attractive, she just doesn't float my boat but I can see why she might be attractive to other people. Singling out a person, like CC, just to proclaim them ugly or as trophy wank pieces is obscene. It's perfectly normal and acceptable that not everyone is going to find the same kind of look attractive and that's fine. What's not fine is declaring someone dog ugly just because they don't fit your ideal of beauty.

ONe of the things that I find most disturbing is that a large number of women sell THEMSELVES as trophy wank pieces and it's awful. In all fairness, there are always going to be a certain number of men who see women that way and treat them accordingly and there seems to be a disturbing upswing in the number of women who see themselves that way. While I am of the opinion that a woman (or even man for that matter) should be able to dress and present themselves any way they want to, it seems bizarre to me that some people don't seem to realise the kind of signal they are sending out about themselves through it. I realise and agree that certain ways of dressing shouldn't be seen the way they are but sadly that's how people perceive them and it isn't changing despite people's best efforts. While ever it's only a minority trying to make waves, nothing will change people's perception.
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:00 PM   #95
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ONe of the things that I find most disturbing is that a large number of women sell THEMSELVES as trophy wank pieces and it's awful. In all fairness, there are always going to be a certain number of men who see women that way and treat them accordingly and there seems to be a disturbing upswing in the number of women who see themselves that way. While I am of the opinion that a woman (or even man for that matter) should be able to dress and present themselves any way they want to, it seems bizarre to me that some people don't seem to realise the kind of signal they are sending out about themselves through it. I realise and agree that certain ways of dressing shouldn't be seen the way they are but sadly that's how people perceive them and it isn't changing despite people's best efforts. While ever it's only a minority trying to make waves, nothing will change people's perception.
I don't know, see there are a huge number of men who do this as well, note the growth of "gym culture" for want of a better term. And you know what if they want to define themselves by their sexuality who are we to condemn them for it? Maybe they are perfectly aware of the signals they're sending out and it's a very deliberate choice?
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:01 PM   #96
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I walk away from Gnet for a few hours and come back to this...
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:06 PM   #97
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I don't know, see there are a huge number of men who do this as well, note the growth of "gym culture" for want of a better term. And you know what if they want to define themselves by their sexuality who are we to condemn them for it? Maybe they are perfectly aware of the signals they're sending out and it's a very deliberate choice?
Maybe it is a choice. I'd make an educated guess and say that for some people it IS a choice that they make. For other people, I think it's learned behaviour. You are right though, there has been a huge increase in men behaving the same way. I'm not sure if that's something that's changed purely in the way that men see themselves or if it's also influenced by women becoming more sexually open and aggressive. Perhaps it's a combination of both.

EDIT :Please note I'm not condemning people for using their sexuality to define themselves. It's not my place to make the choice for other people about how they define themselves. I just think that the emphasis on it is a little disturbing.
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:27 PM   #98
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Maybe it is a choice. I'd make an educated guess and say that for some people it IS a choice that they make. For other people, I think it's learned behaviour. You are right though, there has been a huge increase in men behaving the same way. I'm not sure if that's something that's changed purely in the way that men see themselves or if it's also influenced by women becoming more sexually open and aggressive. Perhaps it's a combination of both.

EDIT :Please note I'm not condemning people for using their sexuality to define themselves. It's not my place to make the choice for other people about how they define themselves. I just think that the emphasis on it is a little disturbing.
Oh gosh I could write a LOT on this if it were earlier in the day. Maybe tomorrow.

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Old 09-08-2011, 03:07 PM   #99
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Don't you worry 'bout them haters, keep your nose up in the air...
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:19 PM   #100
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As far as who's got the harsher eye men or women .aswell as who is to blame for the high standard of beauty that women are ment to live up to...women some time , I believe in the 80s the standard of beauty chaged from the vulumptious pin ups of ww2 to the anorexic model of today,one word Twiggy . It wasn't till she came along did beauty get defined by how thin you Are. Traditionally is was a well fed look sought after cause it was a sign of fertility . So it was a female responsible for the standard change.we just excepted it after awile .as for the harsh eye women again,you lady's are far to hard on yourselfs aswell as eachother .if your wait a bit there are plenty of men who's taste in women is you. As voltaire sang all men are dumb all women are crazy... A women without a man is like a fish without a bicycle
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