Gothic.net News Horror Gothic Lifestyle Fiction Movies Books and Literature Dark TV VIP Horror Professionals Professional Writing Tips Links Gothic Forum




Go Back   Gothic.net Community > Boards > General

General General questions and meet 'n greet and welcome!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-28-2012, 12:06 PM   #1
Solumina
 
Solumina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 8,066
question for the vegans

How do you all feel about animals used in the production and harvesting of produce? I've been trying to find information about it but all that I have found is information on how animals used for labor are frequently mistreated and abused but so far I haven't found much on where vegans stand on such things when the animals are well cared for. What initially piqued my interest was the use of bees in pollination, due to declining numbers of bees a fair number of farms have begun hiring beekeepers to bring their hives to their farm. There is also the fact that a local farmers' market has started to carry produce from an Amish family, it is all picked by hand but animals are used to plow the fields.

(I promise I'm not looking for an argument or debate I'm just curious about this one thing)
__________________
Live a life less ordinary
Live a life extraordinary with me
Live a life less sedentary
Live a life evolutionary with me
-Carbon Leaf
Solumina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 01:43 PM   #2
Saya
 
Saya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 9,512
Blog Entries: 1
Generally, I don't worry about it. With bees, I know honey beekeepers had bad years here but I haven't heard much about Canadian wild bees dying out. As far as I know most farmers just encourage wild pollinators, and honey bees aren't native here so you only see them in the honey industry. I think people with greenhouses use commercial bumblebees but as far as I know its not a big thing on farms.

Its also a reality that one will have no idea what kind of fertilizer was used, if the tractors had leather seats, etc. Its not a vegan world and while certainly there are vegan farms, its not something widespread enough for people to support. But people got to eat something.

Besides, considering how things like clothes, electronics, food, furniture, etc all probably involved abuse of human labour and perhaps even kills people, the possibility that the guy who harvested the fair trade coffee I bought might have used a donkey to transport it doesn't bother me as much, or rather I can only be depressed about so many other things in the world and I have to prioritize a little. We are up to our eyes in human and animal oppression as it is.

Yes, I'm an absolute killjoy in real life too sometimes.
__________________
Adorn your hearts, you who see the blossoms
At flower-viewing hall
For the Buddha does not exist
Apart from this.

-Princess Yodo
Saya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 02:20 PM   #3
Solumina
 
Solumina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 8,066
That makes sense to me, thanks.
__________________
Live a life less ordinary
Live a life extraordinary with me
Live a life less sedentary
Live a life evolutionary with me
-Carbon Leaf
Solumina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 06:57 PM   #4
Solumina
 
Solumina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 8,066
Another somewhat related question: how would you feel about a product (like hand cream or medicinal salves) being labeled vegan if it was produced by a farm that has animals as an integral part of their farm?

I have a friend who has been making natural products for quite some time but she has always simply sold them on her farm so she never really thought much about labeling them but they are thinking about selling them online and through some local vendors and are thinking of how to brand their products. Labeling them as vegan would open the products up to more people but she wouldn't want to be making a false claim. They don't slaughter the animals, the only animal product that they sell is the wool from their sheep (rescues who they do not breed) and they have guinea hens for pest control (these would be the animals that are considered an integral part of the farms operations), they also have two spoiled pigs, and frequently has at least two for three rescued/fostered farm animals. All animals are occasionally used for educational purposes as she teaches animal stewardship through a community collage and she feels strongly that students need to experience things in and out of the classroom so she brings them to her farm a couple of times a semester.

(I'm not using you as my only source of vegan information but a lot of vegans that I know can be kind of unapproachable so it is nice to be able to get some info to consider before risking a lengthy lecture that oddly resembles both a sermon and a rant)
__________________
Live a life less ordinary
Live a life extraordinary with me
Live a life less sedentary
Live a life evolutionary with me
-Carbon Leaf
Solumina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 07:34 PM   #5
Saya
 
Saya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 9,512
Blog Entries: 1
I guess its just best to remember that veganism merely means to avoid animal products, everything else after that is based on the individual's comfort. I buy vegetables from grocery stores that also sell meat, after all, and for all I know everyone involved in the production of vegan items I do buy spends the profits on foie gras smoothies. I don't think veganism as the boycott of animal products is useless, but again where consumerism is so steeped in oppression, it can't be the only concern.

But yeah, there are the silly purists out there who would say I'm a terrible vegan for not growing vegetables on my roof and never speaking to anyone who isn't vegan. And there's also the more legitimate concerns of people selling "vegan" products, and then it comes out it wasn't vegan, or even safe like the Glittersniffer fiasco, so they feel more comfortable buying from certifiably vegan companies.
__________________
Adorn your hearts, you who see the blossoms
At flower-viewing hall
For the Buddha does not exist
Apart from this.

-Princess Yodo
Saya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 09:00 PM   #6
Solumina
 
Solumina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 8,066
I guess I did fail to mention that, I believe, the products do qualify to be certified vegan (but she wouldn't be getting them certified as it just doesn't make sense from a financial/logistical perspective for such a small company), the question is more from a ethical standpoint. She does have a fair number of vegan customers who come to the farm and love her products but she also knows that there are more extreme vegans out there and she doesn't want them to feel misled.

Also I had never heard about Glittersniffer before, that shit is insane and it is pretty damn scary that it could happen.
__________________
Live a life less ordinary
Live a life extraordinary with me
Live a life less sedentary
Live a life evolutionary with me
-Carbon Leaf
Solumina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 11:22 PM   #7
Saya
 
Saya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 9,512
Blog Entries: 1
If she's wary about marketing it as "vegan", she can be meticulous in labeling the ingredients (like if she has glycerin in it, clarify that its vegetable glycerin), and many companies say something like "No animal ingredients, No animal testing."

And yeah, GS is like an Shakespearian Esty tragedy, and its also made me really paranoid about ordering home made stuff online. The stuff that goes on my skin, I mean.
__________________
Adorn your hearts, you who see the blossoms
At flower-viewing hall
For the Buddha does not exist
Apart from this.

-Princess Yodo
Saya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2012, 12:00 AM   #8
Solumina
 
Solumina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 8,066
That shit is just unreal and she is still in business! I just don't understand how that is even possible, my mind literally will not accept that information as truth.
__________________
Live a life less ordinary
Live a life extraordinary with me
Live a life less sedentary
Live a life evolutionary with me
-Carbon Leaf
Solumina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:00 AM   #9
Fruitbat
 
Fruitbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Mainland Australia
Posts: 2,556
Blog Entries: 12
Soap dyes in eye make up - FARK!! what was that person thinking?


SOL clear labelling would be what your friend needs. Over here, almost everything has to have ingredients on the label - that could be a marketing ploy for her.

Website with happy animals out in the fields being animals would be a way of passing off the animal side of the farm. Plus in reality for a healthy agricultural system there needs to be some sort of animal involvement (and that's the brief version of events).

I don't get what is wrong with bees pollinating flowers and why that would be considered wrong by vegans. That is the function of a bee - to pollinate flowers. Bees live in hives. I'm pretty sure that a bee in a hive and a bee in the wild would do the same amount of pollinating in a day (dependant on flowers).

The reduction in the number of honeybees in the world and the possibility of that being an indication of ecological declines - well that's another debate entirely.

Oh and if your friend wants to sell her product for a premium, tell her to get into biodynamics or organic farming.
__________________

"Always be kind, for everyone is fighting a hard battle." - Plato


**
Hold onto the positive, let go of the negative.
****

If you leave me, can I come too?
Fruitbat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 06:27 AM   #10
Saya
 
Saya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 9,512
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitbat View Post
I don't get what is wrong with bees pollinating flowers and why that would be considered wrong by vegans. That is the function of a bee - to pollinate flowers. Bees live in hives. I'm pretty sure that a bee in a hive and a bee in the wild would do the same amount of pollinating in a day (dependant on flowers).
Bumblebees don't live in hives, that's honey bees. And there's 70 different wild polinators in Atlantic Canada aside from bumblebees. Domesticated bees carry more pathogens and have been found to make wild bees sick if they come in contact. I'd rather work against urban sprawl and deforestation to help protect wild bees (and other animals) than bother sick bees who have a terrible tendancy to drop dead randomly.
__________________
Adorn your hearts, you who see the blossoms
At flower-viewing hall
For the Buddha does not exist
Apart from this.

-Princess Yodo
Saya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 08:39 PM   #11
Fruitbat
 
Fruitbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Mainland Australia
Posts: 2,556
Blog Entries: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya View Post
Bumblebees don't live in hives, that's honey bees. And there's 70 different wild polinators in Atlantic Canada aside from bumblebees. Domesticated bees carry more pathogens and have been found to make wild bees sick if they come in contact. I'd rather work against urban sprawl and deforestation to help protect wild bees (and other animals) than bother sick bees who have a terrible tendancy to drop dead randomly.
But still is there an issue with Vegans and bees that are used on farms to pollunate plants.

To help protect wild bees you need to do more than protest against urban sprawl and deforestation. Start by planting out a bee friendly garden and providing habitat for the little guys. Charity starts at home.
__________________

"Always be kind, for everyone is fighting a hard battle." - Plato


**
Hold onto the positive, let go of the negative.
****

If you leave me, can I come too?
Fruitbat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 08:43 PM   #12
Saya
 
Saya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 9,512
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitbat View Post
But still is there an issue with Vegans and bees that are used on farms to pollunate plants.
No, there isn't. Symbiosis with other wild species is worlds away from treating the environment and animals like they are an inexhaustable resource.
__________________
Adorn your hearts, you who see the blossoms
At flower-viewing hall
For the Buddha does not exist
Apart from this.

-Princess Yodo
Saya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 04:08 AM   #13
Fruitbat
 
Fruitbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Mainland Australia
Posts: 2,556
Blog Entries: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya View Post
No, there isn't. Symbiosis with other wild species is worlds away from treating the environment and animals like they are an inexhaustable resource.
So what about the artifical materials used to make vegan boots? Don't they do damage with their lifecycle?

And I'd assume that vegans wouldn't wear substances like cotton - because the farming of cotton does a lot of environmental damage (in Aust anyway). But then too does rice growing in australia (we don't have the water). Hemp is the alternative.

And what about the acres of monocropping in the US? That's not at all healthy for the environment.


So surely vegans would also have to be careful to buy products that came from ecologically sustainable farms? But then you also have to consider food miles?
__________________

"Always be kind, for everyone is fighting a hard battle." - Plato


**
Hold onto the positive, let go of the negative.
****

If you leave me, can I come too?
Fruitbat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 06:58 AM   #14
Saya
 
Saya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 9,512
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitbat View Post
So what about the artifical materials used to make vegan boots? Don't they do damage with their lifecycle?

And I'd assume that vegans wouldn't wear substances like cotton - because the farming of cotton does a lot of environmental damage (in Aust anyway). But then too does rice growing in australia (we don't have the water). Hemp is the alternative.

And what about the acres of monocropping in the US? That's not at all healthy for the environment.


So surely vegans would also have to be careful to buy products that came from ecologically sustainable farms? But then you also have to consider food miles?
Big Agriculture needs a major overhaul, but most food in Canada and the US goes to feeding livestock. Not everyone is able to buy locally from sustainable farms, but being vegan cuts down on the environmental harm done.

Fruitbat, did a vegan touch you in a bad place or something?
__________________
Adorn your hearts, you who see the blossoms
At flower-viewing hall
For the Buddha does not exist
Apart from this.

-Princess Yodo
Saya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 08:31 AM   #15
Haejin
 
Haejin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 220


I know this chart is a tad cheesy but it really shows how much we can help out environmentally just by cutting meat. Obviously there's a lot of work that needs to be done in order to be more eco friendly...but we... especially vegans who are put on the spotlight/chopping block when it comes to these things, need to realize that we can't fix everything in one day. I personally try to buy local when it comes to produce, but I can't always do it... and I really dislike when ppl, especially those who aren't doing anything to help out the planet...point fingers at those who try to do what they can.
Haejin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 09:01 AM   #16
Renatus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Back in Wisconsin(thinking about invading the south)
Posts: 3,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haejin View Post


I know this chart is a tad cheesy but it really shows how much we can help out environmentally just by cutting meat. Obviously there's a lot of work that needs to be done in order to be more eco friendly...but we... especially vegans who are put on the spotlight/chopping block when it comes to these things, need to realize that we can't fix everything in one day. I personally try to buy local when it comes to produce, but I can't always do it... and I really dislike when ppl, especially those who aren't doing anything to help out the planet...point fingers at those who try to do what they can.
That chart seems to be more about efficiency in food production than helping things I think. What happens to the cows that would otherwise be eaten? They'll still be alive, eating and drinking, for a much longer lifespan. What are we supposed to do just shoot our livestock off into space?:P (that wasn't a serious suggestion, I'm just suddenly reminded of PIGS IN SPACE)
__________________
"The chaos of the world viewed from a distance reveals perfection."- me

"Never overestimate the intellect of someone so foolish that they would exploit and perpetuate stupidity in the people around them, for they create their own damnation as they tear out and sell the pillars that support society as a whole, bringing it crashing down upon them."-me

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.- Einstein
Renatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 09:21 AM   #17
Haejin
 
Haejin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 220
Are you seriously thinking that there is gonna be an overpopulation of cows??? You think we have all of that livestock because they reproduced on their OWN?

Oh and yes...the living animals will continue their lives eating and drinking...just like other living things do.
Haejin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 09:23 AM   #18
Renatus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Back in Wisconsin(thinking about invading the south)
Posts: 3,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haejin View Post
Are you seriously thinking that there is gonna be an overpopulation of cows??? You think we have all of that livestock because they reproduced on their OWN?
No but if we were to just stop eating meat suddenly tomorrow, what happens to all the cows that haven't been killed? They're helpless without us. We're maintaining our own little food chain, with us at the top.

Also now that you mention it, it's not like they would stop breeding just because we aren't around to show them how. Take the deer population for example, they're overpopulated as it is so we actually have to kill them for their own sakes.
__________________
"The chaos of the world viewed from a distance reveals perfection."- me

"Never overestimate the intellect of someone so foolish that they would exploit and perpetuate stupidity in the people around them, for they create their own damnation as they tear out and sell the pillars that support society as a whole, bringing it crashing down upon them."-me

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.- Einstein
Renatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 09:26 AM   #19
Haejin
 
Haejin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renatus View Post
No but if we were to just stop eating meat suddenly tomorrow, what happens to all the cows that haven't been killed? They're helpless without us.
A:"This is one of thoese questions that makes a vegetarian/vegan roll their eyes. First you have to realize that not everyone will (can) go vegan at once. There would be a tapering off. And as fewer animals are needed, fewer would be forced to breed, until there were only a few around as pets and such. If the world went vegan all at once, there could be some problems. At first there would be far too many cows and chickens and pigs and so on, but eventually since the demand was gone, they over breeding would not happen and they would naturally thin themselves out. It would be a burden at first, but a burden that many would gladly accept."

Last edited by Haejin; 02-08-2012 at 09:27 AM. Reason: Off of vegan FAQ.
Haejin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 09:56 AM   #20
Renatus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Back in Wisconsin(thinking about invading the south)
Posts: 3,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haejin View Post
A:"This is one of thoese questions that makes a vegetarian/vegan roll their eyes. First you have to realize that not everyone will (can) go vegan at once. There would be a tapering off. And as fewer animals are needed, fewer would be forced to breed, until there were only a few around as pets and such. If the world went vegan all at once, there could be some problems. At first there would be far too many cows and chickens and pigs and so on, but eventually since the demand was gone, they over breeding would not happen and they would naturally thin themselves out. It would be a burden at first, but a burden that many would gladly accept."
One of the factors I'm considering is the fact that all these cattle, are bred for eating, we have over thousands of years been weeding out the genes that allow them to survive in the wild so we'll have cattle that are easier to handle. We've also been focusing on the genes that make them meatier, which would slow them down significantly. Those very genes would serve to make them more prone to staying in one place and focus on eating everything in that one area, which would be well and fine if we were still around to provide them food(which we wouldn't be in all likelihood). They would eat up their food supply quickly and be unable to find more. Look at the natural species of bovines, they have to go huge distances to survive. Then we have the predators.. suddenly you have these slow fat cows out in the wild.

The sudden shock of lack of food/survival instincts would be devastating I think. We have thousands of years of genetic engineering to the domesticated species, and they lack the sentience to overcome their disadvantages. Not to mention I don't even think their old original natural habitats have space for them anymore. Thinned or not I just don't think they're capable of going back.
__________________
"The chaos of the world viewed from a distance reveals perfection."- me

"Never overestimate the intellect of someone so foolish that they would exploit and perpetuate stupidity in the people around them, for they create their own damnation as they tear out and sell the pillars that support society as a whole, bringing it crashing down upon them."-me

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.- Einstein
Renatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 11:07 AM   #21
Haejin
 
Haejin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renatus View Post
One of the factors I'm considering is the fact that all these cattle, are bred for eating, we have over thousands of years been weeding out the genes that allow them to survive in the wild so we'll have cattle that are easier to handle. We've also been focusing on the genes that make them meatier, which would slow them down significantly. Those very genes would serve to make them more prone to staying in one place and focus on eating everything in that one area, which would be well and fine if we were still around to provide them food(which we wouldn't be in all likelihood). They would eat up their food supply quickly and be unable to find more. Look at the natural species of bovines, they have to go huge distances to survive. Then we have the predators.. suddenly you have these slow fat cows out in the wild.

The sudden shock of lack of food/survival instincts would be devastating I think. We have thousands of years of genetic engineering to the domesticated species, and they lack the sentience to overcome their disadvantages. Not to mention I don't even think their old original natural habitats have space for them anymore. Thinned or not I just don't think they're capable of going back.
So what you're telling me is, we have to eat something, in order for it to survive and not go extinct?

The only thing I can think of working is that we wouldn't allow current cattle to reproduce...in whatever means possible. And they wouldn't be allowed to roam in the wild, but would need human protection.

As I read on one website

"would it be such a terrible thing if cattle did become extinct? If they have no natural habitat and are not currently serving the ecosystem in anyway, whats the problem? The ethical response is that we just make sure the ones alive now live happy, healthy lives and when they die of natural causes, then theyre gone. Its really not a huge, horrific loss if a genetically modified species** created by and for humans goes extinct. Really, its not."

As much as it saddens me to think of them going extinct.... you're right. They were genetically modified by us...

Think about it...
Haejin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 11:08 AM   #22
honeythorn
 
honeythorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the broken temple bells, in the ringing...
Posts: 5,983
And where exactly would the remaining cattle, even after tapering off, live? The farms which used to produce cattle would have to be turned over to grain production, and would not have space or facilities for keeping pet cattle. Most people can't keep a cow in the garden, which leaves wild spaces.

Domestic cows are not accustomed to wild life, could have a very real negative impact on wild environments if allowed to roam unchecked .

And since you cannot possibly fence off a single country or area/state/county, or catch and sterilise every single last cow and bull on earth, you would at some point get breeding cattle.

The same scenario goes for sheep, and chickens, and turkeys. Even with a taper off over a number of years, there would never be enough people to house and keep all of these excess animals for the duration of their lives, not any realistic possibility of stopping them multiplying.



Then there's the truly stupendously idiotic vegan and vegetarian ideal of a great deal of the worlds population eventually not eating any meat.

The worlds population is already far too great for the planet to sustain. In order to feed the world even at if the current level of inhabitation remained the same for the next 200 years, you would need to not only convert all meat farms into grain farms, but also destroy a hellish amount of wild areas and forests in order to keep up with the demand for grain and other cereal crops. The current amount of farmland simply would not be able to produce enough to feed everyone and that's with everyone growing some of their own stuff.


Another thing. Land that is grazed GROWS BACK. Plantlife regrows and in some cases grazed grasslands in some areas benefit from that grazing, as the short grass allows certain species ( from mammals to insects to birds ect ) to breed and hunt more easily.

Overworked soil that has had a variety of crops grown in it too many times becomes barren. Different crops use different nutrients, and there is only so many times you can use a piece of earth to grow things before it needs resting and re-fertilisation. On a small plot of land you can rest it for a year and it's usually fine after that until next time.

But on a world wide scale of crop farming? Leaving massive tracts of land for at least 2 years ormore ( depending )to recover would mean greater strain on all other areas to make up the loss. And the only quick way to get soil back to growing condition is to pump it full of chemicals and do all sorts of devilry to it.




The vegetarian and vegan ideal of mostly global non meat consumption is utterly unfeasible and ridiculous.

What would be more realistic and achievable is a REDUCTION , not stoppage of meat farming. What's changed between now and 20'000 years ago is the amount of meat we eat. It's definitely far too much, and usually not the best quality.

What would be best is to drastically reduce herd sizes and frequency of meat cosumption ( NOT stopping altogether ) smaller better kept herds will produce better quality meat on a smaller scale. Smaller herds will be cheaper to keep and easier to manage, and use less land - which should be divided between crop producion and wild habitat renewal ( very wide field margins left for wild plants and trees , more traditional hedgerows ect )

Another thing would be to look at managing the aforememntioned wild deer overpopulation, by consuming more wild venison. Those who wish to shoot their own should be made to take proper shooting courses in order to ensure that the shots are clean, accurate and immediatly fatal ( head or heart ) so the beasts have no time to suffer more than a brief moment of pain.

Shoots should be managed and supervised to ensure no trophy head taking or waste of the bodies/meat.

Re-introducing wild predators into areas where they are currently no longer living, would be unrealistic and dangerous for both the predators and us. The most realistic way to curb overpopulation of edible wild animals ( rabbits and deer are the 2 most common ) is organised legal and supervised hunts.
honeythorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 11:13 AM   #23
honeythorn
 
honeythorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the broken temple bells, in the ringing...
Posts: 5,983
Oh yes... then there's the problem of weather and seasons.

You know what happens when somewhere gets a bad season and the crops fail? You get no fucking food. Imagine that on a global scale. One dry season or excess rainy season can destroy most of a crop. If that happened in more than one place in a similar timespan , a lot of people would go hungry. This shit doesn't just happen in Africa or India you know.


Then there's the cost of transporting various types of food around the globe in order to ensure everyone gets a good balance of nutrition. Various types of plants and crops only do well in certain parts of the world. What if one or more of those parts has a bad season?
honeythorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 01:31 PM   #24
Saya
 
Saya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 9,512
Blog Entries: 1
See Solumina, this is why we can't have nice things.

I hope honeythorn that you realize that faminies tend to happen because we imposed monoculture farming on colonized populations. Faminine is often our own damn fault, and its often not that there is a total lack of food to feed everyone, but also our imposed capitalism means that no one can buy food and the cost of food inflated. Furthermore livestock were also wiped out in the most recent faminine in Africa, since, I'm not sure if you were aware this, animals typically do have biological needs like drinking water. As a result, meat is a luxury that we can usually only afford because of government subsidaries, in developing countries only the rich can afford meat, and it used to be tradition in the west for women to save all the meat for her husband and children, since there usually was not enough for everyone to get much.

And we actually do grow enough food to sustain the Earth's population, and like I said, a ton of food (90% of the world's soy and 50% of America's corn, plus the rainforest is being chopped down to grow feed for Europe's livestock) doesn't get fed to humans at all. In fact, lots of farmers will destroy food to keep the prices stable. In a lot of places, lack of food is never an issue. However, never in the goodness of our hearts do we share it. If you don't have money, you don't eat.
__________________
Adorn your hearts, you who see the blossoms
At flower-viewing hall
For the Buddha does not exist
Apart from this.

-Princess Yodo
Saya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2012, 01:52 PM   #25
Renatus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Back in Wisconsin(thinking about invading the south)
Posts: 3,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haejin View Post
So what you're telling me is, we have to eat something, in order for it to survive and not go extinct?

The only thing I can think of working is that we wouldn't allow current cattle to reproduce...in whatever means possible. And they wouldn't be allowed to roam in the wild, but would need human protection.

As I read on one website

"would it be such a terrible thing if cattle did become extinct? If they have no natural habitat and are not currently serving the ecosystem in anyway, what’s the problem? The ethical response is that we just make sure the ones alive now live happy, healthy lives and when they die of natural causes, then they’re gone. It’s really not a huge, horrific loss if a genetically modified species** created by and for humans goes extinct. Really, it’s not."

As much as it saddens me to think of them going extinct.... you're right. They were genetically modified by us...

Think about it...
I say why not just keep eating them except in more moderation and start considering eating other meats such as deer, diversify our diets more. I quite enjoy trying different meats . We can also properly serve our role of the species at the top of the food chain by supplementing our supplies of meat with animals that need population control. Besides it's not like we're bottomless black holes, as nasty as it is to consider, what we eat does eventually return to the environment through our organic waste and corpses.

Also I've heard something like in Europe the main staple of an entree is not the meat. It sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea, like I said, moderation. Could you imagine how much could be done if we simply reduced our meat intake by 50%-75% rather than 100%.

I think before we really started expanding the United States people never used to eat so much beef, the reason why people started eating so much beef was it was the most efficient source of fat in a rapidly expanding country. Cows were to food what SUVs are to transportation, they're not very efficient overall but when it comes to rough undeveloped lands they work quite well. Europe had thousands of years to develop it's agriculture and everything else, We haven't even had 250. But we're past the point now where we've settled down and can stop relying on beef so much(still need SUVs though, try driving a station wagon through unpaved rough roads), the problem is we the United States are addicted to eating lots of beef as a culture(Beef-its whats for dinner).

Now I mention fat because one of the things that science says lead us to eating meat is the increased dietary requirements created by our brains, increased fat intake being one of those dietary requirements (our brains burn a lot of fat).

Besides if we were to just let them go extinct we would be losing a part of who we are, sure we eventually kill them, but in their time alive we form bonds with them. If you've ever gone to a state fair, you'll see plenty of families who raise animals and bring their very best animals in for show. In spite of them eventually having to kill the animal, they grow to love the animal , and I'd say the animal loves them back. To just stop raising animals would in part sever some of our bonds to the animal kingdom. Sure we kill them, but they're going to die anyways, besides, its more humane than a lot of the times we kill our own species(when was the last time someone water boarded a cow).
__________________
"The chaos of the world viewed from a distance reveals perfection."- me

"Never overestimate the intellect of someone so foolish that they would exploit and perpetuate stupidity in the people around them, for they create their own damnation as they tear out and sell the pillars that support society as a whole, bringing it crashing down upon them."-me

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.- Einstein
Renatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:35 PM.