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Old 05-02-2012, 03:24 PM   #76
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HA HA that is fucking rich.

If you want to TRY to be my equal survive a 50 M.P.H. collision without a helmet or anything to keep you on the ATV.

Then try to get up on your own.

as far as toughness you are nothing but a bought and paid for little bitch.

You have to have back up for what you've been through.

All I needed was myself and the will to keep going.

So fuck you,you pansy ass little nothing,you will NEVER be my equal and you will NEVER be my better.

You are nothing.
HAHAHAHA the disability card. That's your excuse to sit on your lazy ass and let other people live for you. You don't have any will to keep going. The only reason you are here is because other, BETTER, people have the will to keep you. To feed you. To pay the bills. To provide for you. I wouldn't be surprised if your surrounded by your own mess because you won't even pick up after yourself. What you don't want to admit is that you've become so comfortable living off other people that you don't even know how to take care of yourself. You're not tough. You're weak. The people who breast feed you for years are tough. HAHAHAHAHA. I'm laughing so hard I might shit.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:26 PM   #77
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HAHAHAHA the disability card. That's your excuse to sit on your lazy ass and let other people live for you. You don't have any will to keep going. The only reason you are here is because other, BETTER, people have the will to keep you. To feed you. To pay the bills. To provide for you. I wouldn't be surprised if your surrounded by your own mess because you won't even pick up after yourself. What you don't want to admit is that you've become so comfortable living off other people that you don't even know how to take care of yourself. You're not tough. You're weak. The people who breast feed you for years are tough. HAHAHAHAHA. I'm laughing so hard I might shit.
I'm going to love seeing YOUR self worth go down the drain when an I.E.D. takes your legs.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:30 PM   #78
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How does he do it? I've been getting the teet of my friends and family for two years now and to be honest, I hate the taste of it.

Anyways, I really want this thread to get back on point. Before it, I had never even thought of the privileges I had. I was one of those people that thought, those who whine about oppression are often trying to just drag out sympathy. It's stuff like this thread, where I can become less stupid. So please, make me less stupid.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:32 PM   #79
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How does he do it? I've been getting the teet of my friends and family for two years now and to be honest, I hate the taste of it.

Anyways, I really want this thread to get back on point. Before it, I had never even thought of the privileges I had. I was one of those people that thought, those who whine about oppression are often trying to just drag out sympathy. It's stuff like this thread, where I can become less stupid. So please, make me less stupid.
If this thread really had a point it would have been posted somewhere else besides G.net

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Old 05-02-2012, 03:32 PM   #80
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All I needed was myself and the will to keep going.
Plus the disability checks.


You know, from all the stupid things you have said, the one that I really don't get at all right now is this attempt at insulting Versus for having a job.
Isn't part of your conservative Tea Party rhetoric that everyone ought to have a job? Probably the one thing that I like that they say, even if I believe it's for the wrong reasons.

How come someone who makes a living being a productive member of society is now just a 'paid little bitch'?
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:36 PM   #81
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Plus the disability checks.


You know, from all the stupid things you have said, the one that I really don't get at all right now is this attempt at insulting Versus for having a job.
Isn't part of your conservative Tea Party rhetoric that everyone ought to have a job? Probably the one thing that I like that they say, even if I believe it's for the wrong reasons.

How come someone who makes a living being a productive member of society is now just a 'paid little bitch'?
For some reason I knew your bitch ass would show up Al.

I figured you would like the fact that I'm in the socalist system, I mean after all isn't that what you champion?

You bitch about it enough jill/al/whatever persona you are going by at the moment.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:37 PM   #82
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Because she's wrong.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:38 PM   #83
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I'm going to love seeing YOUR self worth go down the drain when an I.E.D. takes your legs.
omfg lol! more excuses



You think I don't know soldiers who have been wounded? You know what they do when the army offers them disability? They say SHOVE YOUR FUCKING HANDOUTS and demand to get back in the fight. It's because they have pride and know that the only thing that can stop them is themselves. I mean, fuck, you live in a country where the poorest of poor can become rich, or the unknown can become famous. If the rest of us, like AshleyO, can pick up and move out, why the fuck can't you? What makes you so special? Fucking joke.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:38 PM   #84
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For some reason I knew your bitch ass would show up Al.

I figured you would like the fact that I'm in the socalist system, I mean after all isn't that what you champion?

You bitch about it enough jill/al/whatever persona you are going by at the moment.
Nah, dude. If you think socialism starts and ends with nothing more than a welfare state, you REALLY do not have a clue as to what you're talking about.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:44 PM   #85
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Seriously guys, just put him on ignore

Sorry this took so long, I was out marching on Mayday. HOLYSHIT Mayday was awesome (I'll post a thread about it later).

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I should rephrase my question. "How has OWS addressed the concerns of non-whites about OWS? Where has that discourse come to?"
Well first of all, that's going to depend on what you mean by OWS. Once again, the Occupy Movement is not a political party, nor is it an ideology, it's an umbrella term for multiple communities around the world setting up their own camps.

Certain occupations, like Occupy Oakland, Occupy DC, Occupy Wall Street, Occupy Boston, Occupy Denver, Occupy Seattle, etc., are in contact with each other. HOWEVER it's not like OWS tells OO what to do, nor is Occupy Newfoundland obliged to listen to Occupy Denver.

If a bunch of Tea Party guys decide to camp out in a park in Louisiana and declare themselves "Occupiers" who am I to say that they aren't? Who is the NYC General Assembly to say they aren't and who are they to make policy for them?

Occupy is a lateral movement. We have no official hierarchy, no official demands, and no uniting principals other than what is colloquially understood to be an occupier.

Occupy is not a political ideology, it is not a philosophy, it is not a party, nor is it a confederation, Occupy is a behavior.

You want an example as to how serious we are about this? There's a crazy woman named "Nan" who's probably on the payroll of some conservative group who shows up at our GA's and Spokes Council meetings. She blocks everything, she tries her best to waste as much time as possible, she makes up stories about being attacked, she has said numerous times that her goal is to destroy the movement through this behavior, and we haven't banned her from the movement because we can't.

Don't believe me? Here are the minutes from her temporary ban from Spokescouncil. <--*Nan is recorded as "Visions and Goals" in this for some reason.

It's likely that the whole point of her being there was to force Occupy to ban her, to FORCE the General Assembly to abandon it's lateral principals and instead behave like a traditional hierarchical, top-down group, as opposed to a bottom-up lateral movement. The whole point is for her to goad us into abandoning our principals so that the conservative press can declare "Direct democracy doesn't work!" and cite her banning as a representative example.

You mentioned "No-True-Scotsman" before. You might assume that I'd say that Nan is not a "True" Occupier. It's quite the opposite, Nan is an Occupier, She's just a crazy Occupier that no one listens to trying desperately to destroy Occupy from within. When I criticize what Nan does in the meetings, I don't criticize her behavior as something that is representative of the Spokes Council, or the General Assembly, I criticize her behavior as being representative of fucking CRAZY PEOPLE.

Now, that that's out of our way, let's get back to your question:

Quote:
I'm interested in the internal struggle to fight racism within the movement.
Well there's alot of things that we're doing. Beyond the previously mentioned training sessions and teach-ins, our facilitators are actually trained to prevent even unconscious racist/sexist/privileged behavior in the spokescouncil, GA, and workgroups. For instance, Kontan and I went to Occupy Congress a few months back. After the General Assembly, we all split off into different discussion groups, Kontan and I went to Vision and Goals. We were the first ones there and the first ones to indicate that we wanted to speak. The facilitator (Who was a woman) informed us that we would not be speaking first because we were white men, and in fact we had to wait until every other woman and person of color had had their say.

This was annoying, but we understood, and we eventually got our chance to speak, after every other minority had gone first.

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I could reference a few things that say otherwise, but I hope that at this point, that's not necessary. Is it okay for me to just say that it's not as specific as you think, and that my comparison was not inaccurate?
I would actually like to see these things you're referencing.

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Because when OWS makes a mission statement or a general intent, it is OWS's responsibility when OWS does not adhere to it. I don't know if you consider other occupy pronouns as OWS, but I would assume so because you used Occupy Boston and Occupy The Hood as examples of what OWS has done to address the concerns of non-whites. I also think that you have to take credit for the crazies and stupids, too. I'm not really sure how you can have a consensus when their actions don't reflect the movement as a whole. I don't think there is a consensus like you think there is.
Consensus is the way we make our decisions in our GAs

Consensus does not mean that everyone in the movement agrees with everyone else in the movement.

I find this video is helpful for figuring out how consensus works, it also illustrates how our decision making process ITSELF combats racism and sexism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=6dtD8RnGaRQ

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As far as what you're supposed to do about it? I don't know. I'm not an activist, and I don't have any experience with it. I'll try to look into it and come back with an answer, though. I'll tell you that "Nothing" isn't a good one, though. At least if you're interesting in drawing people to OWS.
Well there's a couple of things that we ARE doing about it (as much as we can without abandoning our lateral model) On a policy level there's our principals of solidarity, which have been in-place since the first month of the occupation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC GA
Principles of solidarity – working draft

Posted on September 24, 2011


What follows is a living document that will be revised through democratic process of General Assembly.

On September 17, 2011, people from all across the United States of America and the world came to protest the blatant injustices of our times perpetuated by the economic and political elites. On the 17th we as individuals rose up against political disenfranchisement and social and economic injustice. We spoke out, resisted, and successfully occupied Wall Street. Today, we proudly remain in Liberty Square constituting ourselves as autonomous political beings engaged in non-violent civil disobedience and building solidarity based on mutual respect, acceptance, and love. It is from these reclaimed grounds that we say to all Americans and to the world, Enough! How many crises does it take? We are the 99% and we have moved to reclaim our mortgaged future.

Through a direct democratic process, we have come together as individuals and crafted these principles of solidarity, which are points of unity that include but are not limited to:

Engaging in direct and transparent participatory democracy;
Exercising personal and collective responsibility;
Recognizing individuals’ inherent privilege and the influence it has on all interactions;
Empowering one another against all forms of oppression;

Redefining how labor is valued;
The sanctity of individual privacy;
The belief that education is human right; and
Endeavoring to practice and support wide application of open source.

We are daring to imagine a new socio-political and economic alternative that offers greater possibility of equality. We are consolidating the other proposed principles of solidarity, after which demands will follow.
Now beyond this there's also how we deal with racists and sexists on an individual level, in cases where it's really blatant a few things can happen. When an Anti-Semite showed up at the park with a giant sign calling on people to "Google Zionist Control of Wall Street" a few Occupiers took it upon themselves to make a giant sign which read "This guy does not represent Occupy Wall Street" and follow him around with it. When Neo-Nazi Skinheads tried to join our Mayday March, they got beaten up.

But one of the biggest ways that racism and sexism in the movement is combated is by joining in solidarity with other groups - a terrific example of this was when we worked with the Labor Unions and the Immigrant's Right's groups to plan Mayday <--Read the article on the front page, and then read it's continuation on to page 4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa Gutierrez
Another discussion was around permits. OWS feels strongly about not applying for permits, an honorable position. Other organizers expressed their responsibility for representing a vulnerable population that, should there be a confrontation, would not just spend the night in jail but could be deported. Organizers from labor and immigrant rights groups explained that we could not consciously put the undocumented in harm’s way. This should not be interpreted to mean that immigrants are fearful or not militant. But it was clear that this was more an issue of privilege, especially by white youth. That swayed the OWSers to agree to apply for permits.
When dealing with privilege, usually the only way you can get someone to recognize it in themselves is through life experience. Once again, the OWS movement often times IS that experience. Things are hard because groups of the proletariat are kept alienated from each other because of capitalism.

[More below]
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:44 PM   #86
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omfg lol! more excuses

If the rest of us, like AshleyO, can pick up and move out, why the fuck can't you? What makes you so special? Fucking joke.
To be fair, while it takes a whole hell of a lot of guts to move out, I have been fortunate to have good friends along the way. Cooperation is a natural aspect of being human. Why Deadman thinks being a rugged individual is somehow the way someone has to be is beyond me. There's never been a such thing as a rugged individual.

Deadman is the way he is because he's been isolated, left inert, and kept on state funded dialysis for most of his life. Frankly, I feel bad for him to a degree. Sometimes I think if he were around more people, he'd be better off or perhaps his perspective could change.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:45 PM   #87
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[Con't]

There are certainly going to be crazy/stupid/ignorant/racist/sexist people involved with occupy, but this is because Occupy is a microcosm of our own culture, and our culture ITSELF is massively racist and sexist, and it is kept that way by the 1%. This is not a reason for women and people of color to NOT get involved in Occupy, this is precisely WHY women and people of color NEED to get involved in Occupy.

The only way this movement will disappear after a few reforms, is if the alienation is allowed to continue. Right now Versus, there's a shit ton of white male Occupiers who WANT to listen to you, who WANT to understand, and are ready to be just as pissed off about these issues as you are, but if you refuse to work with them because they don't have exactly the same experience and knowledge you have, if you sit back in your chair and condemn the whole movement because of some blogs you read (protip: bloggers are effected by the mass media too) then OF COURSE the revolution will fail. It will fail because we can't defeat classism without defeating racism, and we can't defeat racism without defeating sexism. It is all interconnected, and when anyone closes off communication with the other members of the proletariat, for whatever reason, the 1% wins.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:49 PM   #88
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You guys tell me when Deadman answers the hypocrisy of belittling Versus for having a job.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:58 PM   #89
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I'm half digesting Despanan and half waiting for someone to pick up that I'm trying to make Deadman feel what it's like to be discriminated.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:12 PM   #90
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LoL!!!!!

Honestly, that's a new one for me. Hating people BECAUSE they're productive members of society. You really can't get much more loser than that.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:13 PM   #91
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I'm half digesting Despanan and half waiting for someone to pick up that I'm trying to make Deadman feel what it's like to be discriminated.
It's like the human centipede up in here!
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:23 PM   #92
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No. You posted examples of the good things that occupy is trying to accomplish. You posted examples of how you believe occupy is diverse. But you have not posted anything that addresses the specific issues, or them in general. What has occupy done in response to the craziness at the million hoodie march? Or the Denny Cheng march? How have has occupy responded to the claim that they are a white middle class movement? By dismissing it as mainstream media narrative? How does that explain independent bloggers that nobody has heard of with similar experiences? What about specific individuals?
Occupy's GA has not released refutations for these individual claims, I suspect largely because to do so would only draw more attention to the unfortunate behavior of a few occupiers. Individual occupier have responded however:

http://www.salon.com/2012/03/27/did_..._hoodie_march/

http://infrontandcenter.wordpress.co...nue-to-matter/

Quote:
I never said that. I think I made two posts? One was an honest question with an open mind (still is, by the by), and the other was a criticism of dismissing what I felt was a legitimate claim.
My bad, I may have read some of what I was picking up from Saya into your posts.

However, I'm not dismissing your claim, I'm simply pointing out that your claim does not exist in a vacuum. You really only have a fraction of the story, and that seems to be what's guiding your entire understanding of the movement.

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But to be honest, I'm really distrustful. You can blame that on propaganda if you want to, but I think everybody knows that I don't pay attention to the news.
That's the horrifying thing about it: You don't have to pay attention to the news, in order to be effected by it. Humans are extrememly suggestible, and VERY vulnerable to a narrative. We are naturally pattern-seeking creatures. All someone needs to do is to hear a vague buzzing about an issue to already begin to concoct a story in their heads and make judgments about it.

Perfect example: When I went to the Trayvonn Martin March, my girlfriend stayed home and watched the livestream. At one point she was in the bathroom and heard what she though was that a protestor had been hit by a cop on a moped. She immediately texted me, to make sure I was safe. I did not see the text, so she tweeted the livestreamer and asked "It wasn't @[Despanan] Was it?" A minute or two later I texted her back and said I was fine. She Tweeted again "Sorry I was worried that @[Despanan] was hit by a moped. He's fine though"

Immediately someone tweeted "@[Despanan] was hit by an NYPD Moped, But he's fine!"

I still have people asking me how I survived getting hit by that moped.

When we hear a story, we automatically look for evidence to confirm it, we repeat it, we twist our perception of events in order TO confirm it. We adjust our own behavior to match it.

That's why I'm so concerned about narrative - I'm a playwright, I know how stories work, and I know exactly what the media is doing with this particular story.

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Also, I'm glad your girlfriend doesn't have cancer, too.
Thanks.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:23 PM   #93
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LoL!!!!!

Honestly, that's a new one for me. Hating people BECAUSE they're productive members of society. You really can't get much more loser than that.
Privilege check. Do you take your full physical capacity to participate in society for granted?
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:40 PM   #94
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Real quick admission: I do not understand the internal workings of OWS. More to follow.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:41 PM   #95
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Privilege check. Do you take your full physical capacity to participate in society for granted?
Yes. I do. Which is why I feel bad for Deadman in a way. I say in a way because he makes it very hard to empathize with him. This is probably why I'm not a nurse.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:41 PM   #96
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Privilege check. Do you take your full physical capacity to participate in society for granted?
Privilege Checked: I broke his legs.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:36 PM   #97
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"Well there's alot of things that we're doing. Beyond the previously mentioned training sessions and teach-ins, our facilitators are actually trained to prevent even unconscious racist/sexist/privileged behavior in the spokescouncil, GA, and workgroups. For instance, Kontan and I went to Occupy Congress a few months back. After the General Assembly, we all split off into different discussion groups, Kontan and I went to Vision and Goals. We were the first ones there and the first ones to indicate that we wanted to speak. The facilitator (Who was a woman) informed us that we would not be speaking first because we were white men, and in fact we had to wait until every other woman and person of color had had their say."

And the only reasons you two were kept from speaking your peace first (even though you said that you two fuckwits were first in line to speak)

Were that you are White Men...racism right there so once again you FAIL.

Thanks for dropping me the ammo dumbass.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:37 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Despanan View Post
if you refuse to work with them because they don't have exactly the same experience and knowledge you have, if you sit back in your chair and condemn the whole movement because of some blogs you read
Did you really just place blame on Versus for not wanting to get involved in what is perceived to be a movement that does not welcome him in a thread where he is actively trying to better understand OWS?

Also would these things apply to me or Saya? If so how are we supposed to get past them when we went to the Occupy movements closest to us and we each met with dismissal? You can say what you want about Saya being quiet but I'm not fucking quiet, if someone ignores me or tries to talk over me I have no problem insisting that I be heard but I absolutely will not stoop to having my husband repeat what I say just so that someone will listen. I mean it really is sad that state politicians took me more seriously when I was in middle school than the guys at Occupy Norfolk.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:51 PM   #99
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Because if you get discriminated against you're just buying into the anti-revolutionary narrative and you should just keep showing up until some white guy who isn't a dick will listen to you, apparently.

Nevermind that everyone's been trying to get white dicks to listen for the last several hundred years.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:59 PM   #100
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The idiotic people on this forum is what keeps me returning to see the insanity of the leftist mind in action.

You dipshits have proven my earlier post correct and you are too full of yourselves to ever admit it.

Maybe because I am an individual instead of part of the group of cluster fucked halfwits that make up the majority of this board.
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