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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 08-30-2005, 10:33 AM   #51
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Peter its ok to laugh here. It wouldn't be un-goth of you to crack a smile.
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Old 08-30-2005, 10:39 AM   #52
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Peter its ok to laugh here. It wouldn't be un-goth of you to crack a smile.
Well .. be funny.
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Old 08-30-2005, 12:12 PM   #53
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It's easy to quote someone out of context. If America was right to "pre-emptively defend" then they can prove it, pass the global test and get multilateral support, right?

I know it's easier to just quote a bit of what someone says out of context, but ... Kerry said the reverse that he wouldn't ever hand the decision to the UN.

peter - do you write for the new york times? the washington post? talk about quoting someone out of context...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry
No president, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons.
in fact, if anyone cares to read through what that blowhard said in his entirety during that debate, here you go. it's painful, make no mistake about it - painful on both sides. - http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html

the bottom line is simple - his words were understood across the country to mean exactly one thing, that john kerry, if elected, absolutely WOULD concede presidential decisions regarding safety in america to the united nations. maybe not all, but even one would be too much. and who knows? maybe he did mean all. whatever. doesn't matter. he backtracked like a motherfucker the day after, but the damage had been done - and furthermore, it opened the door to the public so we were able to see what the democrats en masse believed in terms of where america should be.

this is weird going over this again. it's not even yesterday's news. it's ancient. kerry's not only a loser, he sucks as a senator. ever since the votes were tallied and he lost, he's disappeared. he's a nothing, a has-been.

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Originally Posted by peter
Democrats believe that multi-lateral action works better than unilateral, actually, for the most part the conservatives seem to agree (based on what's happening elsewhere in the world with American foreign policy).
the concept of allying oneself with other nations 'round the world is indeed an old and tried and true way for nations to get what they need from others when they need it. such allies come and go. the trick is not alienating other countries so badly when mutual needs do not coincide that when needs do arise, there is at least the possibility of negotiations for mutually beneficial results. i believe you'll find that true of all nations.

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I see nothing wrong with looking to other countries to see how they do things and pinching their ideas, other countries do this with the US and the US do this with other countries, to suggest otherwise is silly. Now that the full Kerry quote is out, I expect you to stop saying Kerry wants to hand sovreignty to the UN, and start saying that you think it's disgusting that Kerry wants the US to have to prove, to answer to the rest of the world, I don't care what spin you put on it, but to say that the democrats and Kerry have stated they want to hand over US sovereignty to the US is a fat lie and I don't discuss lies.
so don't discuss it. what are you trying to do here? take me hostage until i phrase my words the way you want me to?

the democratic party would be fine with a candidate of theirs using the united nations as a sounding board for american policy. and yes, no matter how you slice it, that entails handing over some degree of sovereignty. who knows? maybe a democratic president wouldn't approach the united nations in regard to what he or she wanted to order for lunch on a given day, but who knows...


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Originally Posted by peter
Yes, but there's that respect thing again.
maybe we just have different ideas of how respect is earned and ultimately shown.


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Originally Posted by peter
I get the feeling that half the reasons you're so against what you believe is the left is probably due to name-calling and negative politics, and this happens on both sides of the saddening polerisation of US politics. (Hey, this can be what the British guy is useful for).
i have no problem with name-calling, although elected representatives for the country who continually use such tactics in an attempt to bring the both sides of the country together (tongue-in-cheek) does present a rather odd front. i think it's childish behavior, much like you accused me of earlier, but that specific point doesn't turn me off to the main message they try to get out. it's the rest of their whiny-ass, unfocused, anti-american platform i object to.


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Originally Posted by peter
I have noticed that conservatives aren't actually that fond of Bush but go along with the Neocons because they still think Bush warts and all is better than the alternative. I'll be interested to see if someone more conservative and small government is put forward for the next election now that Bush can't run anymore.
bah. siding with someone in politics, much like garnering allies around the world changes with the direction of the wind.

what i hope for in the next election is a 3-party race. i'd very much enjoy having a libertarian candidate run.

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Well, I don't mind the odd abrasiveness, I just think that when you're browbeating other posters, it'll just mean only one voice gets heard or wants to talk and where's the fun in that?
it's all about me, peter and as long as i'm having fun nothing else matters (tongue-in-cheek again). not to worry, your voice is heard - look at all the responses you're getting.
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Old 08-30-2005, 12:22 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by edible_eye
peter - do you write for the new york times? liberal liberal liberal? talk about commie commie out of clinton...

in fact, if anyone cares to read through what that blowhard said in his entirety during that debate, here you go. it's painful, make no mistake about it - painful on both sides. - http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html

the bottom line is simple - his words were understood across the country to mean anti-America one thing, that john kerry, if elected, absolutely WOULD concede presidential decisions regarding safety in america to the united nations. maybe not all, but even one would be too much. and who knows? maybe he did mean all. whatever. doesn't matter. he backtracked like a motherfucker the day after, but the damage had been done - and furthermore, it opened the door to the public so we were traiter to see what the commie en masse believed in terms of dirty traiters should be.

this is weird going over this again. it's not even yesterday's news. it's ancient. kerry's not only a liberal, he commies as a senator. ever since the votes treason tallied and he lost, he's swiftboated. he's a commie, a terrorist.
I suppose that'll do for a retraction, you're saying people misinterpreted what he said since he said he wouldn't ever hand over a decision to the UN.

And now .. for my next post which shall actually be .. gasp!, on topic!
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Old 08-30-2005, 12:32 PM   #55
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Of course now, just yesterday, this new legislation left committee and is now heading for congress.

Now, you can argue all you want about it, but it's exaxctly what it says - it's a new bill to remove all presidential constrainst listed in the 22 ammendment of the constitution. Thats right - the bush administration is now trying to give itself the power to rule as long as they want - removing all term restrictions from the office of the president. This means, if they continue to steal elections, like the last 2, bush could be the new president of the united states, forever.

Anyone else bothered by this?
I'm not bothered by this, in fact I'm interested to see how it turns out, you see, the 22nd Amendment was added sometime after Kennedy. Some people would point out that forcing someone out of office after their second term is just plain undemocratic. On the other hand, is a healthy democracy protected by not letting any one president have a mandate for action for so long?

To be perfectly honest, I lean towards the former. The Bush administration isn't making it so they can't be knocked out of power, just that they can run for a third successive term, besides repealing the 22nd would not stop anyone from stealing any elections, it just means the same guy can't be president for more than two terms running, however, he could easily put someone there who'd do exactly as he says. If Bush was trying to put off an election until Operation Infinate Crisis was over you'd have more of a point.

I also don't believe the 22nd is one of the amendments that are integral for America to be America, and of course it isn't since it was only introduced sometime mid last century.

Not that I think Bush would get elected again, even the conservatives are starting to become disenfranchised with his presidency.
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Old 08-30-2005, 12:44 PM   #56
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I suppose that'll do for a retraction, you're saying people misinterpreted what he said since he said he wouldn't ever hand over a decision to the UN.
now you're just being silly and you need to brush up on reading comprehension.

he wasn't misinterpreted.

he's kerry. he used to say one thing one day and another thing the next. now, he doesn't say anything cuz he's still too busy pouting.

and please - don't rearrange my quotes. that's like doing the ol' - nanny-nanny-poo-poo on the playground.
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Old 08-30-2005, 12:49 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by edible_eye
now you're just being silly and you need to brush up on reading comprehension.

he wasn't misinterpreted.

he's kerry. he used to say one thing one day and another thing the next. now, he doesn't say anything cuz he's still too busy pouting.

and please - don't rearrange my quotes. that's like doing the ol' - nanny-nanny-poo-poo on the playground.
Quiet liberal, your opinion isn't valid.

So seriously though, when you said before that a bunch of people had said they wanted to hand sovereignty to the UN, you lied and they said no such thing. But that's what you think they mean despite what they say?
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Old 08-30-2005, 12:58 PM   #58
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Quiet liberal, your opinion isn't valid.
voices in your head bothering you again?

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So seriously though, when you said before that a bunch of people had said they wanted to hand sovereignty to the UN, you lied and they said no such thing. But that's what you think they mean despite what they say?
we're not gonna come to an agreement on this, obviously. the liar-liar-pants-on-fire argument seems to be about on par with your skills for discussing points you feel are important when someone doesn't agree with you.

the democrats make their platform known whether or not you understand what they're saying. if there's anything good that's come out of this, i guess it's the fact that you're not a registered voter here cuz that'd be one more for their side... shudder. anyway - thanx for the chat.
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:09 PM   #59
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voices in your head bothering you again?

we're not gonna come to an agreement on this, obviously. the liar-liar-pants-on-fire argument seems to be about on par with your skills for discussing points you feel are important when someone doesn't agree with you.

the democrats make their platform known whether or not you understand what they're saying. if there's anything good that's come out of this, i guess it's the fact that you're not a registered voter here cuz that'd be one more for their side... shudder. anyway - thanx for the chat.
You're such a hypocrite, you know that?. All I'm doing is using your own tactics against you America-hater.

This isn't discussing politics. It's putting down the people half the US votes for. The reason you aren't agreeing is because you think I'm a liberal and you can't bring yourself to agree with your perception of the left. It's kind of sad.

But!

The politics forum is for discussing politics, so this is what I'll do, I'll link back here if you try the silliness again, k?
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:10 PM   #60
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So what do you think of the 22nd Amendment, undemocratic, or a sane mechanism to keep the power moving around?
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:26 PM   #61
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You're such a hypocrite, you know that?. All I'm doing is using your own tactics against you America-hater.
more silliness. you dilute whatever validity you hope to achieve with this type of banter.

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Originally Posted by peter
This isn't discussing politics. It's putting down the people half the US votes for. The reason you aren't agreeing is because you think I'm a liberal and you can't bring yourself to agree with your perception of the left. It's kind of sad.
no, the reason i'm not agreeing is because your comprehension of the points you're bringing up is skewed.

there are different schools of opinion in american politics, that's ONE of the things that make america the awesome nation it is. there's room for people to voice their beliefs, which is what i'm doing. stop worrying so much about tactics, peter and speak what you believe. my guess is we'll be able to discuss things more effectively that way.

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But!
heh. you said "but".

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Originally Posted by peter
The politics forum is for discussing politics, so this is what I'll do, I'll link back here if you try the silliness again, k?
i'm back and forth through the forums. drop a few words if you like and if i see something i'd like to respond to, i'll do the same.
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:29 PM   #62
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more silliness. you dilute whatever validity you hope to achieve with this type of banter.

no, the reason i'm not agreeing is because your comprehension of the points you're bringing up is skewed.

there are different schools of opinion in american politics, that's ONE of the things that make america the awesome nation it is. there's room for people to voice their beliefs, which is what i'm doing. stop worrying so much about tactics, peter and speak what you believe. my guess is we'll be able to discuss things more effectively that way.

heh. you said "but".

i'm back and forth through the forums. drop a few words if you like and if i see something i'd like to respond to, i'll do the same.
Now was that so hard? You have something to teach me, and you have no idea how many people you turn off by telling them they hate America or they can't comment because they aren't American.

Hey, what do you think about the 22nd Amendment?
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:39 PM   #63
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So what do you think of the 22nd Amendment, undemocratic, or a sane mechanism to keep the power moving around?
there's only been 2 - 4 year term limits in the white house since i was born and therefore, i've never experienced anything different. surprisingly, when clinton was in the white house, i would have liked for him to be able to run again. i thought he was a good president, that is until all the background information came out about him. thanx to him, i started paying more attention to the political arena.

if push came to shove, i'd like to see the limitation on terms done away with. part of freedom, proper is the freedom to vote for the candidate that feels right. if he's forbidden to run simply because of an outdated ammendment, that curbs a small piece of our electoral freedom. after all, it's not just the term limit that's been enforced but also a curbing of our right to vote for whom we want in the white house as citizens.
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Old 08-30-2005, 04:45 PM   #64
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Hmm, but the Patriot Act powers with regards to libraries have already been (mis)used, so the analogy isn't apt.
First:
I wasn't trying to build an analogy with the story. Just demonstrating that many of the criticised powers of the Patriot Act do not get that much use. In this case, it's only been once for obtaining library records, and just recently (this month).

Second:
Citing that the use of Section 215 of the Patriot Act was a misuse of power in this case to request library records from a library in Connecticut is a little premature, considering that the ACLU and the media are not able to cite the "who, what, where, when, or whys" of the investigation at this point in time.
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Old 08-30-2005, 04:47 PM   #65
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I wasn't trying to build an analogy with the story, just demonstrating that many of the criticised powers of the Patriot Act do not get that much use. In this case, it's only been once for obtaining library records, and just recently (just this month). Citing that the use of Section 215 was a misuse of power in this case to request library records from a library in Connecticut is a little premature, considering that the ACLU and the media are not able to cite the "who, what, where, when, or whys" of the investigation.
Hey, uhh..

Can I take this moment to interject that you are still smoking HAWT?
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:03 PM   #66
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Haw... I don't even hold a candle to the almighty hotness that is EPS:



In the words of ice, "Rrreeeooow!"
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Old 08-30-2005, 06:33 PM   #67
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Nice to see that face again!=p
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Old 08-30-2005, 06:34 PM   #68
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Ok people. We must once again flood the Pictures thread with our shameless mugs.
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Old 08-31-2005, 12:29 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Binkie
First:
I wasn't trying to build an analogy with the story. Just demonstrating that many of the criticised powers of the Patriot Act do not get that much use. In this case, it's only been once for obtaining library records, and just recently (this month).

Second:
Citing that the use of Section 215 of the Patriot Act was a misuse of power in this case to request library records from a library in Connecticut is a little premature, considering that the ACLU and the media are not able to cite the "who, what, where, when, or whys" of the investigation at this point in time.
Oh the power will have been used before too, just we won't know about it, part of the patriot act is that the libraries aren't allowed to tell anyone, plus if it had never been used, it would still be wrong, and in fact, is more of a reason to let it sunset.

Not that I'm against anti-terror laws in general, but it's going too far for too long.
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Old 08-31-2005, 02:10 AM   #70
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Come to think of it, weren't there stories about it happening earlier in the year?
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Old 08-31-2005, 09:46 AM   #71
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If it had been used before April of 2005, then Alberto Gonzales blatantly lied at a Senate hearing when he specifically said that Section 215 of the Patriot Act had never been used to aquire library records ever.
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:14 AM   #72
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If it had been used before April of 2005, then Alberto Gonzales blatantly lied at a Senate hearing when he specifically said that Section 215 of the Patriot Act had never been used to aquire library records ever.
I'd have to look it up and I'm too lazy, he may be a torture apologist, but he's probably not an out and out liar. On the other hand, if he said as far as he knows, well, how would he know if no-one can tell him aside from the people who wouldn't want him to know?
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:21 AM   #73
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I got ya covered, Peter.

Brief Transcript from Senate Hearing



SEN. ARLEN SPECTER: Would you see any problem on specifically excluding, in a reauthorization of the Patriot's Act, authority to obtain library or medical records?

ALBERTO GONZALES: Mr. Chairman, let me try to reassure the committee and the American people that the department has no interest in rummaging through the library records or the medical records of Americans. That is not something that we have an interest in. We do have...

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER: Does that mean you would agree to excluding them?

ALBERTO GONZALES: We do have an interest, however, in records that may help us capture terrorists. And there may be an occasion where having the tool of 215 to access this kind of information may be very helpful to the department in dealing with a terrorist threat.

The fact that this authority has not been used for these kinds of records means that the department, in my judgment, has acted judiciously. It should not be held against us that we've exercised, in my judgment, restraint. It's comparable to a police officer who carries a gun for 15 years and never draws it. Does that mean that for the next five years he should not have that weapon because he's never used it?

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER: Attorney General Gonzales, I don't think your analogy is apt, but if you want to retain those records as your position, I understand.

KWAME HOLMAN: FBI Director Mueller added his insights.

ROBERT MUELLER: We've had investigations in which we have seen persons associated with terrorists groups go into libraries, use the library to communicate, or the computers in the library to communicate, draw up Jihadist literature, and the like. We have been fortunate not to have used 215 because we have had the cooperation of the libraries to date.
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Old 08-31-2005, 11:13 AM   #74
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I got ya covered, Peter.

Brief Transcript from Senate Hearing

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER: Would you see any problem on specifically excluding, in a reauthorization of the Patriot's Act, authority to obtain library or medical records?

<snip>

ROBERT MUELLER: We've had investigations in which we have seen persons associated with terrorists groups go into libraries, use the library to communicate, or the computers in the library to communicate, draw up Jihadist literature, and the like. We have been fortunate not to have used 215 because we have had the cooperation of the libraries to date.
Thanks for looking that up, at least we know that it wasn't used up until then.
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Old 08-31-2005, 04:51 PM   #75
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Haw... I don't even hold a candle to the almighty hotness that is EPS:



In the words of ice, "Rrreeeooow!"
Blush..Thank you Pretty...

You know are the still the worlds most perfect woman...

Don't make me go down the list of all of your breath-taking qualities, that instantly elevate you to the level of Pure Goddess..

I'll do it..

:P
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