World Politics and Ethics!

[CptSternn]

Loy - I have worked for Sinn Fein for over 12 years now. I am quite familiar with their ways and views.

Slán

-S

[WolfMoon]

After all Loy he knows everyone in Ireland.

Must be a real popular guy.

[Loy]

Sternn-yeah, and I know plenty of carnivores that work at Vegan restaraunts. Your point being?...oh yeah, you tried to diffuse my "learn something from the Sinn Fein" remark, which still fucking stands. Sorry, try again.

Wolfmoon-I never said that I knew everybody in Ireland. I'm just pointing out that my viewpoint on Ireland isn't from myopic information. In simpler terms-I know people from Ireland (was fucking one for a while...almost married her too...no way in hell SHE was going to let me get away with being a dummy about her culture/country). See, that's the way I like doing things-if I wanna find out anything about something specific, I talk to the people closest to the subject at hand. For example, if I want to know something about quantum physics, I'm wouldn't speak with a history major, would I? You should try it. You'll find it more edifying than listening to a laymans opinion...and more educational to boot. And who doesn't like learning things?

[AlKilyu]

I trust everyone of Loy's opinions.

He's smarter than I'll ever be, and a good heart to boot.

Just reading his movie reviews says alot. He is willing to watch crap the rest of us avoid (I think he loves it too) and is willing to look at pieces with an open mind. As he does with the world as a whole.

Now me being a conservative and he a liberal means we differ on some views, but I always listen to what he has to say and for a good part I agree with him. Even when I don't, I respect and appriciate the amount of thought and time he puts into each thought, something I need to do more of.

SO, that being said, and not just cause I agree with him on the Irish politics, I trust and beleive his statements here.

I do not condone terrorism in any form. I didn't loooong before 9/11. I despised it against the Isrealies and the English, and still do. There are plenty of cultures who have overcome oppression by not resorting to such cowardly acts.





Also, Sternn spins records so that the Sinn Fenn can relax and dance after a long day's bombing.

[CptSternn]

Well, being an irish citizen of irish decent who lives in ireland, i can probably tell you more than a yank on the west coast (quite possibly the farthest point from the island here).

Ireland is small - it takes 2 1/2 hours to drive from east-west and 4 hours to drive it from north-south. I ride with a bike club here and we literally drive 10 hours or so on a nice saturday passing through 18-24 counties (there are 26 in the ROI, and 6 in NI) in a day.

And yes, most people here know many people. The entire island is only a couple million people.

Plus on weekends most everyone travels to another county to meet, drink, and take in the craic.

So, yes, I know almost everyone. Think of the six degrees of seperation game, and make it the one (or two) degrees here with everyone.

Slán

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by Loy

Sternn-yeah, and I know plenty of carnivores that work at Vegan restaraunts. Your point being?...oh yeah, you tried to diffuse my "learn something from the Sinn Fein" remark, which still fucking stands. Sorry, try again.

Wolfmoon-I never said that I knew everybody in Ireland. I'm just pointing out that my viewpoint on Ireland isn't from myopic information. In simpler terms-I know people from Ireland (was fucking one for a while...almost married her too...no way in hell SHE was going to let me get away with being a dummy about her culture/country). See, that's the way I like doing things-if I wanna find out anything about something specific, I talk to the people closest to the subject at hand. For example, if I want to know something about quantum physics, I'm wouldn't speak with a history major, would I? You should try it. You'll find it more edifying than listening to a laymans opinion...and more educational to boot. And who doesn't like learning things?

Loy,when I said he I ment Stern.He certainly also seems to know the opinions of 90% of the rest of the non-U.S. world too.

It wasn't against you,luv.My wording was wrong and I apologize.

[Loy]

Wolf-and I appologise for jumping towards the Smith & Wesson.

Sternn-Which clan are you from? Which county? And if the citizens of Eire are so close, do you have any cool stories of getting plastered with U2, or good-old-Sinead, or even My Bloody Valentine? Sorry, but your statement reeks of....well, bullshit. I mean you're talking about a country with a population similar to any major metropolitan area here in the US. Now, I live in Seattle, and as many people I know here (both personally and extranously), I know my little Friendster-like circle of acquaintances/friends/etc wouldn't even come close to HALF of the population up here...even if I went by 10 degrees of separation. And I am personally aquainted with almost every bartender in town (which makes people want to talk to me...if only to get stronger drinks).

And as for your knowledge of the "Irish Heart"...OK, I'm guessing you're just as brazen about your pro-IRA stance in public as you are here. Now, people around you know you're pro-IRA, maybe a little pro-active for the cause...do you really think people are (for the most part) going to be totally upfront with you about what they think about the "problems" (which, as my friend just told me the other day when I called her up, are nowhere near as bad as the problems she saw when she came to visit me)? I mean, say I'm sitting in a bar, and some Guido walks up to me, hand in jacket, and says "hey, you got a problem with the mob?". Do you REALLY think I'm going to say "yes I do"?...well, I probably would 'cause I can be a dumbass at times...but most people WOULDN'T. Again, please keep your cognative dissonance in check.

As for your remark about Seattles distance from Eire....let me throw the question back at you-what fucking right do you have to assume all Americans are the way you describe us as being, if you chickened out of staying here for any major length of time? And what right do you have for speaking for the many, many non-americans around the world? See, this is my major beef with you-you like putting people into little, easy-to-describe boxes. Me being a 30 year....err, "21" year old, I've lived long enough to know that not everybody is alike. I mean, hell, I'm Filipino, Sicilian, Geman, Polish, Zulu, and Blackfoot. (and my youngest boy's mom is Irish and Jewish, while the oldest's mom is French, Scottish, and Swedish....which means that I've forbidden them from going to either Mississippi or Tennesse until they can handle small arms decently). As proud as I am of my multiple heritages, I know that I cannot speak for the Filipino community, or the Blackfoot tribe, or the extended Sicilian family. Know why? Because I'm not their leader, and none of them have ever asked me to be. And to be honest, I'm glad. I don't want to be in the position of trying to tie down everybody into a bundle of constrictive types, which is what you're trying to do. I mean, hell, look at the americans on this board....can you say that I'm exactly like .batterypoison., or Alkilya, or Wolfmoon, or Teapotscar, ad infinitum and vice versa? No, but I don't toss out the "you're different from me" line as an excuse to dismiss them (and I'm guessing they don't do the same with me...I am willing to be wrong, though), and in fact, the fact that they ARE different from me, and articulate about why they are who they are is what makes me respect them....I guess what I'm calling you out on being is a hypocrite-you say you're against insularity and stereotyping and dominance of one group over another, yet you're guilty of doing exactly those things. You're just as bad as all those anti-fag-and-modern-society republicans, and it sucks for the posters on this board because WE are (I think. I know I am) trying to reach a point where we agree more than disagree, and where we can understand each others point of view. You, on the other hand, are just a reactionary guttersnipe that's no better than that pissed off pubescant who's angry because he's not getting laid enough, whose every remark lack any kind of thought or critical understanding, and are just a bunch of reactionary statements and half-formed facts. I take their opinions with a pound of salt, just like yours.

And this goes into the Sinn Fein thing....see, Sinn Fein were the ones that came out and basically said "this violence-and-terrorism thing...it's bullshit, and we're sorry that it's gotten to this point. We can't repair the damage we've done, but we'd like to start changing to make a better Ireland". Does thi excuse their past? Not really. Does this mean they're any less Pro-Ireland. Hell no! It just means that they figured out that there ARE other ways of working towards your goal. (Hell, when those fucktard rogue IRA members broke the cease-fire back in '98, wasn't it the Sinn Fein that went after the perpetrators? Why...in fact it WAS.) See, they grew up and learned how to listen and communicate. And I am asking...PLEADING...for you to do the same.

Al-I...I...you're not supposed to make me blush, god-damnit!!!

[CptSternn]

I lived in the states for over 15 years. Lived all up and down the east coast, from Miami to NYC. Also lived out in San Fran/LA on the west coast fer a while, so I didn't 'cut an run' until bush took office.

Being a world traveller (just because I lived there doesn't mean I didn't take a few weeks off every quarter) I have been many places and seen many things.

My point is this, in america, the people who are so gung-ho on war, and passing laws against other countries, and supporting a government whose policies directly effect the lives of people in other sovern nations have absolutely no idea how those people are living.

I mean, people are like 'bomb iraq/afghanistan' to make it better and more democratic. Like the current bush/kerry election, not all people had a problem with sadaam. Not all people in afghanistan had a prbolem with the taliban. Some people had issues with both leaders, but liked the way of life and their standard of life much better than they do now. It bothers me to see people across the world telling people in a seperate sovern nation what is best for them. They are not children, and they sure as hell don't need a lesson on morals from the country that brought us OJ Simpson, Scott Ptereson, The lady who drowned her kids, Enron, Haliburton, and a dozen other national fiascos.

The way of life in those countrys will not permit such travesties. Their way of life parallels their religion, so its not a problem for them. This whole thing reeks of another 'crusade' - if you remember bush used that term in his first speech before starting any war and was quickly told not so say it again. Anyone here remember the crusades? When white Christian men decided they knew what was best for the middle east and started a war? Anyone remember the outcome? After years of pissing away monies and losing many lives, they pulled out and called it quits.

You can't legislate another mans morality based on the way of life you currently lead. I mean, why is the US trying to better the way of life in Iraq when there are over a half million homeless people running around their own cities that need help? Every hour of every day in the US a family declares bankrupcy because they cannot pay a medical bill (national statisttic from 20/20 and wahsington post). This year alone tens of thousands of people have lost their life savings and pensions due to stock market scams by billionaire CEOS, who have only recieved a slap on the wrist while the families of those effected have gone hungry.

And why is it the US thinks this way of life if better than ones elsewhere and wants to force it upon other nations by bombing them until they submit to having a starbucks on every corner and a mcdonalds on every street?

When I lived in Thailand, I learned alot. I learned first, you can live like a king for about $6 a day (US funds). I also learned that money and all the materialism you see in the states is no important. I lived in a hut on the beach, no running water, no electricity, but it was grand. The people were real, you could depend on them. Your neighbors were always stoppping by to help and say hello. This mentality exists today all over Ireland (with the exception of possibly Dublin), but with all the 'creature comforts' of the states (ie. digital satellite TV, broadband access, and plasma screen tvs).

I just get irked when I see americans justifying why they are trying to change someone elses way of life. I mean, isn't this a goth messeage board? Would people here be pissed if a man came here and said, dressing in black is wrong, and you need to change - you will be better off, be able to get a better job, have a higer standard of life, etc.?

If anyone is saying this, its the american republican party - who is against gays, gay marriage (so are the dems, but they dont want a constitutional ammendment against it), social welfare programs, etc - things that effect about 90% of the people on this board. Hard to see why people support a group that only has about 10% in common with it. And that 10% (ie. war/security) was CREATED by the repubs in the last couple of years. Anyone remember this being an issue during the gore campaign? No. They knew bush had nothing to offer, so they created a false threat and now offer to protect you from it.

Anyone ever read Khafka? OR Stalin? They both have many essays and books on this very subject. Tis the route all dictators take - find a threat, galvenize your people against the threat, and rule without question. When there is no threat, create one.

Barbarians at the gate people.

Slán

[.BatteryPoison.]

You say again and again that we're forcing our way of life upon them. Would you like me to sit here and explain to you how the democratic process works? Do you understand that religious leaders, not the U.S.-backed interm prime minister, are leading in the polls in Iraq right now? Why? Because that's what the majority of people want. Are there people who are sad to see the Taliban go? Yeah. A handful of warlords and the Taliban themselves. Do they speak for the majority of their country? No. Should they be allowed to decide the life of everyone in their country? No. People in Afghanistan just got through voting and deciding who will run the country and how it will run. THEY decided. America wasn't in there voting for them.

As for some of this other stuff, you do know it was the Cliton Administration who chopped up the welfare program pretty good right? Bush's changes to social welfare don't hold a candle to Cliton's. I'm of course talking about the cut-backs.

[Loy]

Sternn-Just to clarify a few things....

1-Stalin never wrote essays, and KAFKA was an author of fiction dealing specifically with the existential dread brought about by society and social "norms" in general. He always was apolitical, so while one COULD use one of his stories as a comparison point to how SOCIETY works, one couldn't use them for how GOVERNMENT works

2-Thailand, being a Flat-Earth Society type paradise? Ummm....are you aware of the major gang problem there? And what are those gangs dealing with? Modern appliances. So whilst you were happy enough without modern appliances over there, the locals aren't. Something to think about.

3-As far as political parties....as much as I'm against the two parties we have here, I'm glad they exist. See, while they DO speak for the lowest common denominators of their beliefs, at least we know which side of the coin they're going to bat for. And they're dislike for each other is so great that it takes a while for anything to get done. Now, while this is an annoyance, it also forces people to think about what they're trying to do, and compromises have to be made...see, this is what's called "legislation", and it also allows for people to get involved (if they only would, I know...but that's another story).

4-The crusades lasted for centuries, not years. And yes, I am aware Shrub used the term....it's one of many things about that fucktard that bothers me. However, whilst you have the right to bitch about him, WE have the right to vote him out of/into power (which I'm wondering, whether you gave up or not). Think about THAT for a while.

[CptSternn]

Stalin did write various essays - as I studied them for many years in college.

Second, when was your last trip to Thailand? Or are you once again telling me your vast knowledge you learned from sitting at home on your arse while I once again was there?

It's amazing how people in the states know so much about other countries, lifestyles, and their governments and religion but have never actually travelled farther than a few miles from their own home.

I say if you haven't visited or lived there, you can't have any idea of what life is like there. Tis why I travel, live, and converse with people vs. sitting on my couch eating crisps watching digital TV as my outlet to the world.

Slán

[Loy]

You are aware that I was born in the Phillipines? That I used to go there every year? The last time I went there was about a year and a half ago? And that with $25 american and the right connections, one could easilly jaunt over to Thailand? Please, if you're gonna try to box me into a specific "type", at least get the correct one. I'm neither apathetic, nor localized. (And ironically enough, this also points to my major problem with you-your need to put everybody into strict definitions).

[skoteinh]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Tis the route all dictators take - find a threat, galvenize your people against the threat, and rule without question. When there is no threat, create one.

CptSternn, I agree with most of your views. Try being less agressive though, it will make people pay more attention to your arguments.

And people: maybe you're familiar with this quote. Does it ring any bells?

[CptSternn]

Loy - so which of yer parents are in the military?

[Asurai]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

And why is it the US thinks this way of life if better than ones elsewhere and wants to force it upon other nations by bombing them until they submit to having a starbucks on every corner and a mcdonalds on every street?

The US is not concerned with improving the well-being of billions of persons in the world. Spreading democracy and freedom is the precept used for the agenda: the US wants to protect itself.

3,000 civilians were murdered on a single day. Iran, a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy, is on the verge of developing a nuclear weapon. Iran cannot hit us with any missile in its capability, but it can easily give a nuclear device to the same terrorists who have already demonstrated that they don't like us.

Democratic countries don't breed terrorism. A "free" society does not breed terrorism. A prosperous economy does not breed terrorism. Attack the social roots, and you attack the entire movement... which means that we get to wake up safer in the end.

[CptSternn]

Hey! Thats the same argument the brits used when 'bringing civility' to africa and the middle east. You see how well it worked for them.

Anyone here know the history of Iraq? I say go read up on it, and then sit back and wonder why the americans ever decided to go in.

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle6337.htm

And once again, the Iraqi's had nothing to do with 9/11. If the reason for invasion was to pacify a nation that didn't like the us, how does killing innocent women and children change that? Besides, there are dozens of nations who hate the states. If you try to bomb them all, your going to end up bombing most of the planet, including most of Europe.

Tis done now. The only thing to do is to sit back, and watch the bodybags pile up and the us piss away billions on a lost cause.

Slán

[Asurai]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

And once again, the Iraqi's had nothing to do with 9/11.

If Hussein -- a man who is known to have given enormous amounts of money to the families of Palestinians who blew up Israelis -- associated with or gave a penny to al-Qaeda, then 9/11 becomes his work in part.

And remember the '91 UN resolution? The one that said that, among other things, unless Iraq disarmed entirely AND -- not "or" or "maybe afterwards" -- AND prove that they had done so, hostilities would immediately resume. Whether or not Hussein failed the former is debatable; he without a question failed the latter requirement. Ergo, hostilities could resume at any moment that we felt like.

So, we went into Iraq and deposed Hussein, in accordance with UN resolutions, finding hundreds of Hussein's mass graves in the process. Then what? If we left, we would have created a power vacuum, destabilizing the entire region and perhaps ending with someone even worse coming out in power.

[MrMaelstrom]

3000 thousand in a day? Wow!

How about 100 000 in a second - Hiroshima

Nagasaky ring a bell?

Weren't they civilians?

Do we forget who it was that used weapons of mass destruction on civilians to a scale never seen on this planet before or since?

Or am I being one-sided?

Or was it a long time ago and we should just forget it?

[TeapotScar]

Originally Posted by Asurai

If Hussein -- a man who is known to have given enormous amounts of money to the families of Palestinians who blew up Israelis -- associated with or gave a penny to al-Qaeda, then 9/11 becomes his work in part.

Just because you say it over and over again doesn't make it true.

...the special bipartisan commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks against New York and the Pentagon has found "no credible evidence" of any operational link between Iraq and al-Qaeda.

Source of Quote

Originally Posted by Asurai

So, we went into Iraq and deposed Hussein, in accordance with UN resolutions.

You've *got* to know that this is bullshit- if the UN had supported pre-emptive war on Iraq, so many of our troops wouldn't be dead right now. We'd have had the man power needed to keep Iraqi insurgents under control.

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by Asurai

If Hussein -- a man who is known to have given enormous amounts of money to the families of Palestinians who blew up Israelis -- associated with or gave a penny to al-Qaeda, then 9/11 becomes his work in part.

"If" seems to be the operative word in this sentence.

Originally Posted by "Asurai

And remember the '91 UN resolution? The one that said that, among other things, unless Iraq disarmed entirely AND -- not "or" or "maybe afterwards" -- AND prove that they had done so, hostilities would immediately resume. Whether or not Hussein failed the former is debatable; he without a question failed the latter requirement. Ergo, hostilities could resume at any moment that we felt like.

Excuse me, but wasn't it the UN's own inspectors who daid that he had disarmed?
The same inspectors who were discredited by the US administration and later were proven to be nothing short of absolutely right?

Originally Posted by Asurai

So, we went into Iraq and deposed Hussein, in accordance with UN resolutions, finding hundreds of Hussein's mass graves in the process. Then what? If we left, we would have created a power vacuum, destabilizing the entire region and perhaps ending with someone even worse coming out in power.

Sorry, but you went in in accordance to new UN resolutions the US practically twisted the UN's arm to pass, after bipassing the whole security council with the exception of the UK.
When did those mass graves occur? When James Baker was friendly? Before that, when Rumsfeld sold weapons?
Oh, and after that too, after the real coalition decided to leave Saddam in power and the shiites to deal with the shit.

We do get righteous really fast. We just chose to forget N.Korea, the ongoing genocide in Sudan and the ressurgence of feelings of a job left unfinished in Ruwanda.

And just where the fuck is Bin Laden????

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

3000 thousand in a day? Wow!

How about 100 000 in a second - Hiroshima

Nagasaky ring a bell?

Weren't they civilians?

Do we forget who it was that used weapons of mass destruction on civilians to a scale never seen on this planet before or since?

Or am I being one-sided?

Or was it a long time ago and we should just forget it?

No I feel horrible for what happened. MAny innocents were lost.

Lost because the U.S. tried to warn Japan that they were going to do that and the goverment shose to ignore it. That's more than can be said for Pearl Harbor. No not all of them were civilians, but at the same time none of those lost that day had lifted a finger against Japan.

Could Nagasaky have been prevented had the Japanese Imperial Goverment chose to surrender after the first bomb?

Originally Posted by TeapotScar

You've *got* to know that this is bullshit- if the UN had supported pre-emptive war on Iraq, so many of our troops wouldn't be dead right now. We'd have had the man power needed to keep Iraqi insurgents under control.

The U.S. never said it was a direct response to 9/11. Again people forget the weeks leading up to the invasion. The man supposedly didn't have WMDs (someday they will find something in Syria I am sure) but he pretended like he did. The U.N., corrupt as it is, had 17 resolutions that were ignored. Had he left the country as was asked of him...but he didn't. One of his top aides had said under interrogation that Sadam was shocked when the forces hit their soil. Why? Because, in his words/mind, he had paid off most of the countries in the U.N. and figured he'd be safe.

OVER...OVER 1,500 insurgents were killed in the Falluja assault alone, that isn't counting all the insurgents killed up until that point. So to try to spin it that we are losing because of those we have unfortunatly lost iis weak at best.

Originally Posted by TeapotScar

We'd have had the man power needed to keep Iraqi insurgents under control.

You mean Saddam. He kept his country under control. Did it with severe cruelty that would make LPFC English puke.

The insurgents, or "Freedom Fighters", which are aptly named because that's what they are fighting, Iraq's freedom, are made up of foreign fighters. Like Palestine, there are outside influences here. Like the WTO protests that had anarchists who were there for NO OTHER REASON than to cause chaos, like the Democratic Party having people like Michael Moore "representing" it, these are all causes being marred by those who could care let about their cause. The insurgents are not these oppressed people fighting a good cause, they are trouble makers hiding under that banner. In doing what they are doing, they want people to only see the horror, horror that THEY caused. So when people like Sternn and others here feed off that, and use it as ammo for their cause, it disturbs me.

Oh and careful...careful to anyone who disagrees with me and Asuri and others that you don't have a knee-jerk reaction and dismiss us as stupid for having opinions other than your own. That's popping up here lately (in the last 72 hours) and I'd be a shame if your points are lost in a flame-war.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Ya know what I am really tired of hearing?

Blah blah blah " So many of our troops are dead"

Ya know what, ITS A FRIGGIN WAR!!!

We are not over there having a fucking tea party..

I have friends stationed over there, and ya know what, when they enlisted they knew in their hearts that they may never come home again. Yes, my soul would be filled with sorrow if they died, but I accept their sacrifice as a conscious one.

That is just a basic fact of life that ANY soldier has to accept during an armed conflict.

It is not a pretty fact, nor is it a happy one but that does not make it any LESS of a fact.

This US led conflict STILL has the LOWEST casualty rate of ANY US led conflict in our military history.

Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events.

Sir Winston Churchill


There was no " SIGN UP HERE TO BE COUNTED IF YOU ARE AN INSURGENT" poll.

To again loosely quote Churchill " When you enter into a war, take everything you know about the enemy and the battle and throw it away "

There is no tried and true ONE SET WAY for conducting military strategy.

IT DOES NOT EXIST.

You act and you adapt.

It is as simple as that..

Soldiers die, women and children die.. Innocents lose their lives..

This is the UNCHANGING face of war..

It has been thus since we as a race of people began to organize against one another, and it will be that way for eons to come..

No one has to like it, but distaste will not make this any LESS of a fact...

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
~Winston Churchill

[AlKilyu]

See I type a bunch of crap, then someone like .bp. or EPS come along and say it better than I. Beautiful EPS, simply fucking beautiful.

[quote]You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
~Winston Churchill[/quote[

Fucking A.

Although I could do without the Gypsy "~" things though.

~scratches butt~

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Lost because the U.S. tried to warn Japan that they were going to do that and the goverment shose to ignore it.

Al qaeda has already warned the US countless times that they're going to strike on US soil. When/if it happens, it won't be any less barbaric.

"That's more than can be said for Pearl Harbor."

Spin goes both ways. If you see the political and strategic outset at the time, it was only a matter of time 'till those two clashed. Given that premisse, Pearl Harbour was nothing less than a preemptive strike (where did I hear that before?). Is it any less of a cowardly act? No.

So, killing military people in a yet undeclared war vs. killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in a declared war.... We're not going to get anywhere with this, I can tell you.

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

"The insurgents, or "Freedom Fighters", which are aptly named because that's what they are fighting, Iraq's freedom, are made up of foreign fighters. Like Palestine, there are outside influences here. Like the WTO protests that had anarchists who were there for NO OTHER REASON than to cause chaos, like the Democratic Party having people like Michael Moore "representing" it, these are all causes being marred by those who could care let about their cause. The insurgents are not these oppressed people fighting a good cause, they are trouble makers hiding under that banner. In doing what they are doing, they want people to only see the horror, horror that THEY caused. So when people like Sternn and others here feed off that, and use it as ammo for their cause, it disturbs me.

WTO protesters? Where the fuck did that come from now?
But if you want to go that way, ratification of the Kyoto protocol is enough reason for me to go start shit at any of those meetings, not to mention genetically altered food and other such notions so easily dismissed untill one day we're paying for bottled air.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

See I type a bunch of crap, then someone like .bp. or EPS come along and say it better than I. Beautiful EPS, simply fucking beautiful.


Although I could do without the Gypsy "~" things though.

~scratches butt~

So we're clear the ' ~ ' was mine way before Gypsy became a freedom fighting member of this board..

Pftftftftft...

:roll: