Then I'd like to know just how many cases you know of and also, once again, where the hell you live so I can move there. Because I've been broke and living in Cali, Colorado, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, Louisiana and Missouri. Nowhere that I've lived has there been many people living around me with nice new electronics or cars. In fact, the poorest neighbourhoods I've probably ever lived in, New Orleans, Louisiana, the neighbourhood pass time was hanging out on your porch talking to your neighbours because, even if you had a TV, you didn't have cable and reception, on the one or two channels that came in at all, was horrible. There's exceptions to every rule, however, those exceptions are few and far between.

None of the homeless people I've known would choose that option. When you're homeless you're pretty much forced to own no more than you can carry on your back. Anything more becomes a burden as you either have no place to store it or could be forced to relocate, on zero notice, at any time.

I was talking about the working poor as being the ones who go the rent to own route.

I didn't keep records. But I've also lived in New Orleans (9th Ward, to be exact), and even there I saw plenty of people with half-way decent TVs and Playstations. Though I was there before Katrina, I don't know what it's like since then.

You don't need to tell me what it's like to be homeless, I've hitch-hiked and train hopped across the country. If you notice, the items I've attributed to the homeless are smaller items, easily carried. It doesn't take much room for a cell phone or an MP3 player (and their chargers). Even a laptop can be carried around easily if you have a good alice pack.

I was talking specifically about homeless people, hence me making a distinction between the homeless and the rest of the poor.

Yeah, I lived in the 9th pre-Katrina. Lived on Feliciana St. and two blocks away there'd be 15-20 kids hanging out selling crack near the tire shop any given night. Though, when talking about the general outlook for the poor, I don't include crack dealers.

As for the rest, once again you're talking exceptions to the rule. Are there rich people in Zimbabwe? Yes, but, like your luxury item having homeless, they're rare and there's probably an explanation as to why they have what they do, which isn't because Zimbabwe's a great country to live in. Come to think of it, one of the reasons Zimbabwe is in such bad shape is because of previous efforts to orient their economy to Free Market Capitalism. Which is what generally happens when third world countries do the same.

BTW, since you've been homeless, then you're probably aware that the MP3 player carrying homeless are mostly runaways who packed up all the nice toys they could carry and left their parents house, the rest generally got them through illicit means like selling drugs or theft. Do you really want to pin your contention that being poor or homeless isn't that bad here on runaways and people who acquire what they have by breaking the rules? Or should we be basing it on the homeless who aren't runaways or criminals and instead are actually poor and have to rely on the charity of others?

So? I worked with your definition of slavery; apparently, you just don't give a shit about the rest of the world.

All those pretty things you have are the product of imperialism. There's no fucking way countries with such rich resources and manpower would be that poor except through force and violence by the first world.

Seriously, it almost offends me that you would be that fucking tunnel-visioned.

You might want to explain your definition of capitalism in a bit more depth, because I've found Japan to be loads more egalitarian than America. Yes, there are the very rich and the very poor, as everywhere, but the gap is not near as huge and the populace as a whole is much more middle class.

It's odd to me, being of the upper lower class type, and of having lived several years of my life either on welfare or on the streets, and also being of the very left-winged variety, that I would lean towards the side of capitalism. I think it's perhaps that I understand very little in regards to politics and that I am comfortable with what I know. Research is imminent.

Some people oppose socialism because people can survive without working. I oppose capitalism because people can work without surviving.

Socialism? Capitalism? Heh. By in large, I'm rather indifferent as to which system is in place because it's all generally based on who is playing the game. People.

It's insane to assume that every capitalists wakes up with the thought in their head, "How can I make others suffer by exploiting their efforts?" There ARE benevolent capitalists.

It's also insane to assume that the vast collective of production by the people has an individual's autonomy in mind. But not all socialists are bad.

The point of my post is that as long as all people involved are playing the game in the most autonomous way possible, either system could work. Sadly, we have seen BOTH systems fall to corruption. It's almost like the law of entropy. All things in order must eventually fall into chaos.

It's not the systems in place, it's basically the social aspects that demand a certain kind of behavior that are in place that have been put there by the people of that system. If the people want their lives to be a living hell, they'll see to it that it happens, if they want something better and more liberating, they'll see to that as well.

I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the market, it just needs some protections from abuse and basic services need to be provided for the public good.

It's kind of a shame that the economy of the United Federation of Planets was never explained in any of the Star Trek series, suffice to say that they didn't use money and the accumulation of wealth was frowned upon. The writers never explained it because they wanted to have artistic freedom and to show that economics were only important insofar as everyone got what they needed, I would surmise.

I ran across one article suggesting that it might be a form of participatory economics, which I'm going to have to read up on.

How the fuck is that a good argument?
There ARE benevolent capitalists just as there WERE benevolent slave owners.

The fact that the world is in these shit conditions when "there ARE benevolent capitalists" should show anyone that can add 2 + 2 that obviously the problem is not the people, it's the system - you just fucking proved it!!

And yet, no, you don't seem to get it.

All that I proved is that I don't give a good god damn. How's that fucking grab you, Alan? Either system is ABUSED by assholes.

It makes no difference to me as to what system "the people" want to play by. At the start of the day, I realize the masses want something in a system like this or that, so how do I deal with it? If it were a socialist system, I'm certain some other aspects of my own individual autonomy would be fucked with. Either system is going to dish out its own brand of shit and I'd deal with it in the best way that I can. If "the people" wanted to play by socialist rules, I wouldn't impede their progress. I invite whatever amount of triumph or fuck up "the people" want.

This nit picking posts thing is totally ignoring the crux of my post. Of course you're not even nit picking the other part of that post where I mentioned that it's also insane to assume that all socialist are benevolent loving angels that want nothing but the absolute best for you.

But being that we're all pissed about capitalism being in place and is being abused is an afterthought right? "The people" are docile, lame, and utterly indifferent to their own strife. THEY enable the bullshit.

But hey, maybe someday we might get lucky and see socialism once again get abused in another country.

As for the small pockets of those that find a way to make it all work and everyone is happy, I commend them. Good for them. At least they've got balls to stand up for themselves.

How is it 'nitpicking' when you yourself said I referred to HALF of your post? It wasn't even HALF, though. Simply, specifically referring to the other part of your post would validate the capitalism/socialism dichotomy you're working with, which is stupid.

Metete un palo por el culo,hijo de puta.^^^

This post on it's own is enough to prove that Alan is a retard. Not only is he comparing a system of trading to human bondaged (Hubba Hubba) and thus displaying an utter lack of both perspective AND a lack of respect for the struggles of the African American; but his logic is also completely broken.

I mean seriously, look at that middle bit. The fuctard is claiming that because good people exist in a world in which bad things happen "anyone that can add 2+2" should come to the conclusion that things are bad solely because of the way people trade.

What? What fucking world do you live in kid? How could something that insane make "mathematical" sense to you?

Why do you think all the problems in the world are made by "bad people"?
Seems very childish to me.

So you're saying that world war two for example was caused by "the all powerful system!"? Systems dont kill people, people kill people.

So you're saying that world war two for example was caused by a system? Systems dont kill people, people kill people. What will it take to get this into your thick skull?

Uh oh, double post, heh. Oh and you better not try and blame this on a system Alan.

Somehow if Germany wasn't a dictatorship, or wasn't sent into poverty because of the Treaty of Versailles, allowing the German people to become desperate enough to vote just about anyone in with an answer, then a few things could have been prevented, yes, to put it in simple terms. There are bad people in the world and certain power structures make it far easier for those bad people to abuse others. And certain power structures just create an atmosphere of privilege amongst the elite and make them blind to the plight of those less lucky than them, doesn't make them bad people, just ignorant of the way things work and unwilling to change things since its going so good for them.

Not really, all systems are equally exploitable, it just depends on where in the system you are. The only thing that changes from system to system is what is the name of the role of the person you need to kiss the ass of.

Yeah, really, a totalitarian dicatorship is a world different than the American democracy, for instance. Sure its not so bad for us, we got freedom of speech and are free to call our leaders douche bags if we don't like them without the risk of getting shot in a back alley. The system does leave the "poor poorer" though as the saying goes, and makes it really really easy for those of us who don't have to worry about those kinds of things to ignore their problems and deny them the basic needs of life. For example, the capitalist system in its more pure form rejects universal health care, everyone should pay for their own insurance. Its very easy for those people who don't have health problems or have their own insurance to say they don't know what the problem is and deny those without insurance health care. Here in Canada though we've had universal health care for a long time, if we were in the same system as Americans we'd probably be more apathetic to those without insurance, but we're used to a system with socialist values so we don't turn a blind eye to poor people who are sick, or rather we turn a blind eye to the fact that thats where our taxes are going.

Are they? Or how about a more fundamental question: which system is more likely to be exploited?

I hear people blaming the "bad apples" and I hear people blaming "the system," but nobody's blaming the culture. Really, an economic system is merely an outgrowth of a country's culture. Look at the nations of the world, the more individualistic and exploitative a culture is, the more free-market capitalism and systemic abuse there will be. The more collectively-minded a culture is, the more wealth distribution there will be.

If you can effect a change in the culture, then the system will change accordingly and the bad apples will be marginalized.

Exploitation created capitalism, not the other way around.

Hey, how did you teach your ass to talk? That's impressive.

Hey, how did you learn to feel morally superior with saying shit and only insulting other people? Must make you very lonely.

probably the same way you did!!!!!!!!!!!!!
did you find it hard ?????? being a retard and all.
it must have been harder!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It can get quite disgusting, in the poor parts of town,
Where reside such the Right Wing loves to put down;
They call such "industrial," for in such alone,
You can easily find stores with nothing but porn.

The Faux News crowd's thinking that the lower-class types
Can't make wise decisions in the face of such hype
Free-market capitalism wants brought to their homes,
Purchased only from stores stocking nothing but porn.

We're expected to think that the poor lack good taste,
Morals and decency, as well as unchaste;
For all we've been told about their lives being forlorn,
Their only hope comes from shops stocking nothing but porn.

The thinking is that welfare classes get bored
With top-shelf soft porn, but they never get bored
With crudest of hardcore, explicit all the more--
Sold cheap from the shops selling nothing but porn.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xx

yes i'm so lonely??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
do you want to be my friend ass hole??????

what?????????????

?????????????????????????
did you say something???????????
was that supposed to be relevant??????

sing along if you believe!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

I addressed Despanan, you fucking idiot. How can you get so pissy that quickly?

well i feel lonely and i need a friend.
so i was wondering if you could be my friend??
i know it wasn't for me but i wanted it to be.
you are making me sad ass hole.
why do you have to make me so sad?

HA ha! Creature is awesome.

Oh, I'm sorry. I made the mistake of taking you seriously.

Carry on.

you just proved once more how childish you are.
whatever you are doing is clearly intelligent .
i do not discuss as i said before politic with children.


carry on?
i do enjoy those carry on Movies.
my favourite is carry on doctor.
well that's enough of that,let's go back to capitalism shall we?

For the record, everyone is aware that this is all a purely intellectual based thread, right? It doesn't change anything.

As for the comment of it all being a cultural thing, I agree.

Do threads on Gothic.net ever change anything?

Yes, they change the amount of disk space available on the server it's hosted on.

The amount of useless bytes available on the internet?

Of course they do, the very fabric of the space time continuum consists of the useless energy people put into bitching, trolling and generally better than thou on G.net...

Don't you guys think you're taking this too seriously when you speak so sarcastically about one forum's importance, or lack thereof?
Seriously, what don't you fucking talk with your friends either because it has no impact in the world? How sad.

In the long run, nothing really ever makes a difference anyway. I just talk sarcastically and bitch about various topics because I enjoy it.

i'm sorry to say Alan but you are the sad one.
thank fuck some people are sarcastic and bitch about things as you said Still jack.
otherwise sometimes it could be boring.
Alan you can't serious 24/7.
i guess you know that you ......
crawl back in your box.
here you go.

They're the ones that apparently want some serious change from some pointless conversation, so what the fuck are you talking about?

what Alan?
............... did you say something?

You got all pissy and troll-like precisely in this thread after I defended you and you cursed me out. You couldn't just say you were wrong, huh?

oh i guess i have been a bad girl?
would you forgive me.
i could not leave with myself otherwise.
pissy? me never.
please forgive me?

The only thing wrong with Capitalism is Class Consciousness...

So the only thing wrong with a system that exploits both the poor workers domestically and poor nations globally,; the system that makes it so you have to slave away for a pittance of a paycheck to spend on health care that a trained doctor could do with utter ease only to be rejected because of some arbitrary factor that boils down to you costing too much money; a system where the means of production are owned by people who've never seen a hard day's work; a system where basic human decency has a price tag it's too high for most; a system where you slave away your entire life just to afford basic items that are stored in surplus at factories that you help build; a system where a man can have wealth greater than that of many nations while three million people lay homeless on the street; the system's only flaw is that the eighty percent of the population with twenty percent of the wealth is actually aware of how fucking miserable their lives are?

Holy shit, you're a fuckhead on epic levels.