Woah there.
I grew up on a farm with horses and such...their canines are useless, and probably just a vestigial pair of teeth.

Most of mathematical biology is used for population dynamics, not summing up ecosystems with formula. It is used to estimate the future population (so exactly what you used) and used to calculate fishing and hunting quotas, for two common examples. Other than population dynamics it is also used in cellular biology.

Edit:Ophelia, I argued that herbivores have canines and therefore is not a indication of meat eating. Not saying horses are saber tooths or anything ^_^

*giggle*

Get it?

Not to dredge up old arguments, but I noticed this.

You are correct Jillian ; humans are the only animal that drinks milk by suckling another animals breasts/udders. However, for someone to make the leap and say that because of this oddity, adult humans eating dairy is unnatural is still wrong.

In the wild, adult carnivores and omnivores all need dairy in varying amounts (for instance; cats drink milk), and vegetables and carbs as well. They get this amount of nutrients from killing and devouring their prey, ie: when a panther kills a moose or something, it eats the whole moose: The flesh, the stomach, the intestines etc. This of course includes the breasts, which more often than not have a varying amount of milk in them (provided that animal was female).

Thus it is "natural" for humans to slaughter a cow, devour it's udders, and get their dairy. However, since we humans are smart we have figured out a much more humane, much more efficient way to gain the nutrients: by milking the friggin cows instead of killing them.

Now the problem with this is that the nutrients distilled from the milk are so potent, that when they're taken in excess they are rejected by some people's systems. Hence people who eat too much dairy experiencing lactos intolerance, pain, flatulance, constipation, and obesity.

I'd say, as a whole, Americans probably eat too much dairy, but to make the jump from "Too much dairy is bad" to "All dairy is bad" is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

To up and decide dairy is "unnatural and unnecessary" is just plain stupid.

In truth, actually most humans are lactose intolerant. Drinking milk has been a trait that only indo-europeans have acquired.
The rest of the world has a hard time digesting it.
So more than "milk is bad", it is obvious that "milk is unnecessary"

I'm an omnivore,I eat both regularly and enjoy it.

Besides what's an old country boy like myself if I don't have salmon patties and bacon to go with the soup beans,'Taters,and mustard greens. (Throw in a slice of onion and that's a meal fit for a king in my book)

I'm an omnivore.
I could never give up dairy, even if it is sick and wrong. It's delicious and sick and wrong. :)

I really wanted to go veggie when i was younger. I didn't even like the taste of meat. But then i found out the hard way that I'm completely intolerant of iron suppliments. (they make my stomach and intestines bleed) and that due to some feminine issues, i can't intake enough iron through things like spinach.

I went veggie for 6 months, and even took what, for a normal person would be the proper suppliments, and then spent 3 months in and out of the hosptal for extreme anemia, internal bleeding and complications there-of and dammaged my heart. (To this day, if i do ANY sort of upper stronger than the ammount of caffine in an energy drink, i run the risk of giving myself a heart attack.)

After that, i decided being an omnivore is actually pretty good.

Besides, have any of you SEEN Snatch? Pigs would totally eat you just as soon as you'd eat them. I say fair is fair. If pigs evolve opposable digits we're all so screwed.

though i will say, the meat industry is messed up, and i do think that americans especially eat too much meat in general. I am opposed to the environmental effects of our current meat-farming set up, and try to eat free range/hormone free/ responsably raised as often as i can afford it.

No. You're wrong, you're stupid, and no one loves you.

There are plenty of non-'indo-european' cultures who drink Milk. Hell milk mixed with cow's blood is a staple of man tribal-African diets. I could go on, but, seriously why should I bother? You're just spouting PETA propaganda now. Stop it.

Anthropologists support what Jillian said. We only started consuming dairy about ten thousand years ago, and its not everywhere, the cultures that have been drinking milk the longest have lower lactose intolerance rates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance

What anthropologists? Just because Europeans have had dairy longer and are less lactose intolerant than people who haven't traditionally had dairy isn't in any way an indication that dairy is unnecessary.

I mean if I wanted to jump to irresponsible conclusions like Jillian I might jump to the conclusion that European global dominance over the past thousand or so years is due TO a diet high in dairy. But I'm not going to do that because I'm not a blithering idiot.

Seriously, this is stupid. Humans are omnivores and require a balanced, varied diet to remain healthy. Certainly it's possible, especially in our current desk-job culture, to live without certain foods, even without incurring major health problems; certain people may have more difficulty digesting certain foods than others, but that doesn't mean that those foods are 'unnatural'. People have different diets all over the world which vary greatly by region and culture. You can't take a tiny bit of data and create some sort of overreaching dietary zeitgeist. It is massively stupid to up and decide to make a major dietary change without consulting a nutritionist. Hell look at what happens to people who are on the fatkins diet for too long.

Ya know what? As I've said before, I don't care if anyone wants to be a vegan. Just please, don't be stupid about it, or if you are don't be loud and stupid about it.

How about most anthropologists? Seriously, milk wasn't historically consumed in China, and 93% of Chinese people are lactose intolerant. Thats 93% of a population amounting to 1 billion people. Of course the rates change over age, since as babies while we are breast feeding we are tolerant to mother's milk, but after weaning is when the rate of intolerance increases. In cultures were dairy has been around the longest, again you will notice that typically these regions have greater tolerance to lactose. And dairy is technically "unnatural", its only been around for 10,000 years and as a result of animal domestication, and certainly is unnatural to people who cannot digest it.

Milk does have its nutritional benefits but on the other hand a large amount of people have problems digesting it, so they just have to live without. The Atkins diet is not apt here because that diet recommended cutting out carbohyrdrates and eating fat and protein, which has UNHEALTHY written all over it, 60% of our energy we (should) derive from carbohydrates. Its only if we eat too much that it gets stored as fat. You're jumping at nothing here, Jillian did not say that milk is bad, just that you can live without it, and you can. No one is saying you should cut out milk and live on Kraft dinner all your life.

I'm not jumping at all. Lactose intolerance does not mean that you don't eat Dairy. Hell I'm lactose intolerant. I eat dairy. The Chinese eat Dairy. Africans eat dairy. Wolves eat dairy. We all just eat it in different amounts in accordance with our needs and environment.

Look: Just because some people have problems with dairy doesn't make it unnatural. The fact that people have domesticated animals for "OVER NINETHOUSAAAAND!" years has nothing to do with it's naturalness either. If the ability to live without a food is an indication of it's naturalness and lack of necessity to a healthy diet the only "Natural" foods could be bread and the occasional lime to keep from getting scurvy. The atkins diet totally applies because it's an example of some fucktard cutting a lot of necessary nutrients out of his diet without suppplimenting them/ thinking.

You know what? This is ridiculous. I think we all actually agree here for the most part, we just keep exaggerating to make our points.

Ah, read his post wrong :D

You can't say that everyone who cuts out dairy is an idiot who doesn't suppliment the vitamins they are getting. Calcium and B-12 can be found else where. And even if a tiny little bit of dairy finds itself to a wolf by feeding on a lactating female from time to time doesn't quite qualify as consuming dairy or even necessary to its diet. And what about hunters that only eat fish, reptiles, insects, birds?

You're lactose intolerant, and chances are its going to get worse as you age. My mom is intolerant as well, and cannot eat a bit of dairy anymore. And its still not apt at all to say its like the Atkins diet because the Atkins diet takes away something extremely crucial to your well being, whereas as long as you have a good source of calcium, iron and Vitamin B (of which there are plenty of other sources) there's no need for milk. A large population of the world cannot digest it properly, as we slowly (or in some places very quickly) loose the ability to break down lactose after weaning, as we share the trait with animals that we stop drinking milk after weaning off the mother. Its only after ten thousand years of consuming it that we have a tolerance for it (and ten thousand years really isn't a long time at all).

*Facepalm*

Obviously you haven't read my posts either, because I've never said anything like that.

Are you guys just going through the PETA Rolodex of answers? because that might be causing the massive levels of addressing arguments I've never made that I keep seeing in the anti-dairy wing. I'm not going to restate my position anymore since I've done so at least six or seven times by now. What I am going to do is explain, very simply, the flaws in some of these arguments:

1) Referring to "Anthropologists" or even "Most anthropologists" and listing wikipedia statistics on lactose intolerance does not lend credence to the assertion that all dairy is unnecessary.

2) Just because you can live without something does not make it unnatural.

3) Indo-Europeans are not the only culture which eats dairy. They do consume the most dairy but once again that has nothing to do with the assertion that humans are no supposed to have dairy.

4)

But if you don't use those other sources, and just cut milk out of your diet because you've decided it's unnecessary (Like the girl who originally sparked this whole stupid, stupid, debate) then it's exactly like the atkins diet because you're taking away something extremely crucial to your well-being and not replacing it.

5) Domestication is simply a more efficient way of harvesting food. It doesn't change the food (and if anyone says anything about bovine growth hormone I swear to Xenu I'm going to reach through this computer screen and bitchslap the stupid out of you) We had Dairy, before we had domesticated animals because we ate the breasts & udders of our prey. 10,000 years or 500,000,000 years your argument is irrelevant.

6) Lactose intolerance doesn't make you explode if you drink milk. Stop acting like it does. Except in the most extreme cases, lactose intolerant people can eat reasonable amounts of dairy without serious consequences.

This is why a lot of people get annoyed with vegans and vegetarians, a lot of them are very touchy about diet. Diet is a very personal thing, but you are going to get sick if you don't manage a balanced diet.

Now I'm going to bed.

I am extremely offended you'd lump anyone who doesn't drink milk with PETA, especially since I still drink milk, I just acknowledge that I can live without it, and probably will have to stop soon anyway since I am growing intolerant. I am not using them as a source, I am recalling from what I learned in physical anthropology courses and from websites. You did not bring that girl into the conversation, you just brought up that Jillian said it was unneccesary.

1) I'd dig up my anthropology text books and notes my professors gave me, but alas they are in a box right now, so websites are going to have to suffice.
http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/june/lactose.htm
http://www.westonaprice.org/archive/abrams.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0115075427.htm
http://anthro.palomar.edu/adapt/adapt_5.htm

2) When your body can't digest it it makes it slightly so. Our tolerance to lactose is a genetic mutation most humans don't have.

3) We consume the majority of it, its no where near as dominant elsewhere.

4) Once again you did not mention this girl earlier.

5) We did not drink milk or eat cheese before the domestication, and there is no evidence that udders and breasts of lactating mammals was common in our diets.

6) Might not make you explode but it can make you shit like there is no tomorrow.

This is why vegetarians get annoyed with people who go off their heads about its not healthy and lump us with PETA when we disagree. Most vegetarians are very aware of their diet since we do get sick if we don't pay attention. And with obesity on the rise I highly doubt a whole lot of people who eat meat too have a balanced diet.

Man, what the fuck?
I'm honestly offended. I say something I believe is factual, and you call me stupid and you claim I'm not loved by anyone?
Nevermind the countless other posts I've made all along. I'm actually stupid?
Nevermind the fact that I'm not overzealously defending an opinion against fact, but I was merely stating what I know; I'm still stupid?
Nevermind the fact that I was merely interjecting and in no way did I press you to anything; I'm still not worth anyone's love?

Seriously, for once, I'm not interested in arguing with facts. I'm not interested in arguing this at all.
I just want to say: Fuck you.
There was no reason for me to deserve your goddamned insults.

On the topic of PETA, why is it that people can get so riled up about animals but not fucking people?
I know about 3 kids that will shove PETA vids down my throat and go on about how noble they are for "not eating something with a face" but then you say something about circumstances that are much worse happening to PEOPLE and not ANIMALS and they just go blank.

In a number of cases you run into folks that are doing it because it's the feel good thing to do.

Oh shit. Sorry I keep forgetting that I'm still fairly new to these forums.

I was kidding Jillian (as in the "You're wrong, you're stupid, and no one loves you") Of course that's a ridiculous overzealous response. I should have added a "This is a joke" Didn't mean for anyone to take that seriously.

(I also didn't mean to imply that you're "a blithering idiot" if you took that as a jab at you. I was exaggerating my statements in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way.)

Anyway I sincerely apologize.

Despanan...if you think that when Jillian said "rather than "milk is bad,'" he was in fact claiming milk is bad, you don't know how to read very well.


He was saying, in so many words, "it's not that milk is bad."

Ophilia: He did not say "Rather than" he said:

Which I take to mean "milk is bad and it's obvious that milk is unnecessary". I think anyone else would take it that way as well. (I can't believe I just had to quote the exact same thing twice within like, 4 posts)

For the love of god will everyone please stop getting offended and actually read this. (Except for Jillian anyway, rereading my post I can see how someone who doesn't know me very well would take that the wrong way.)

The girl was allready in the conversation. This is a forum, all of our posts are archived for reading. If you didn't read the whole conversation then please say: TL:DR so I know you're coming in late.

It was not my intention to lump you in with PETA, I was just pointing out that you're attacking positions you assume I'm taking instead of actually reading my positions and responding to them. You're not the first person in this thread to do that. Thus it is a little frustrating for me to have to constantly explain myself, requote text, and deflect arguments against statements I haven't made.

Examples:

I say "Make sure you consult a nutritionist to make sure that you are starting a healthy vegan diet."

And the response I get is:

I make a point about how carnivores feed in the wild and how it relates to how primitive man got his nutrients and I get:

*(Bold added for emphasis)

I point out that this is both incorrect and irrelevant and you (Saya) tell me that Jillian didn't say what he, only 2 posts ago, said, and tell me that "Anthropologists" agree with him and link a wiki article with lactose intolerance statistics. When my argument was never about lactose intolerance.

BTW: in only skimming the stuff you linked I found this:

Then Ophilia tells me that Jillian said the exact opposite of what it seems he actually said and tells me "I don't know how to read very well".

Can anyone blame me if I'm getting a little bored? Can we all please calm down and stop jumping at imaginary arguments?

I didn't say he said the exact opposite, I said his statement was NOT that milk is bad.

I don't know anyone who thinks that More than = Rather than, in this context It sure sounds like you though he was saying: "Milk isn't bad, just unnecessary" When his text would indicate he was saying "Milk is more than bad, it's also unnecessary." I would say those two statements are pretty much opposites.

If Jillian meant to say rather than, I can hardly be blamed for misunderstanding him. I don't blame him for mistaking my joke for an insult, as this is the internet, and he doesn't know me very well.

I misread him and misquoted him, but saying "more than" does NOT mean "in addition to."

It usually functions as "while the aforementioned trait could possibly hold true, this next trait is much more true."

I bring up lactose intolerance because that is the case for dairy not being a natural part of our diet, being lactose tolerant is a genetic mutation most of the world doesn't have, thereby if most of the world can't drink more than a small glass of milk without getting diarrhea maybe its best for those people not to drink it. And usually when there is a debate here we'll argue with what you're saying in the post, which was the milk is necessary, and avoiding milk doesn't make you vegan anyway, and might not pick up on that you are still arguing about some girl who posted something way back. If you're going to argue about her, mention it instead of just quoting what Jillian said, otherwise everyone is going to assume you're just arguing with him.

And if you're going to ask for more sources than just wikipedia do more than skim them, actually read them please before nit picking. They all say what I say, milk isn't predominant in other places in the world and milk is a fairly recent food we are eating, and still evolving to tolerant and digest it, and most people in world don't have this ability yet.

Okay Despanan, let's have a crash course in basic English.

Person 1: I postulate the theory that nuclear missiles are spontaneously occurring death-machines with the intention of destroying the entire universe.

Person 2: Actually, given the evidence we have collected, more than nuclear missiles being spontaneous, HUMANS invented nuclear missiles.

As in, it is more likely that THIS (second theory) is the case, than THIS (first theory).

Pertaining to the topic, my best friend is vegan. She has a rather aggravating tendency to say, when I am about to begin a meal, something along the lines of "Enjoy eating that dead animal".

The truth is, meat tastes good and dairy products and eggs taste good, and I have no qualms about eating them. It may be egotistical, but whatever.
:D

</uselesspost>

If that is proper grammar, and I'm not certain it is, that's a fucktarded way of saying something. If indeed people actually use that term (and I can't say I've ever encountered it before; colloquially or academically) you can't blame someone for becoming confused about it's meaning, especially on the bloody internet where the English language isn't just abused, it's dragged into the street and beaten with a pipe.

If indeed that is what Jillian meant I apologize for misunderstanding, however that's really more or less a technicality in the context of my original post anyway, as all of this lactose intolerance stuff has nothing to do with the debate at hand, and never did.

You know what, I barely remember what we're even arguing about anymore.

I'm a vegetarian, going vegan VERY shortly. I was vegan back in 2008, but went back because I really wanted cheese on my pizza -Laughs- :P Anyway, I have been vegetarian for about 9-10 years now, and I originally went veg because I didn't want to eat animals, plain and simple. As I started to age and look deeper into it, I REALLY did not want to eat animals. When I was around 19, I found too many websites that started telling me how the egg and dairy industries are and that made me like it even less. I wanted to be vegan. I also learned that eating vegetarian/vegan is really good for the environment, which I'm all for as well. So it was really a mix of things for me. But because of my diet, I am anemic. I have been slightly anemic for years, but I am actually iron-deficient now (mostly because I was pregnant last year, and am still nursing. My baby is taking all my iron! :P) I never liked red meat or fish, chicken was okay sometimes, as with pork, but that was it. I prefer me some veggies! xD

Damn you for bringing this thread back to life.

It happens :P

Maight as well:

Vegan to Flexitarian

I want to be vegetarian, simply because I know I'd be fine without meat and for ethical reasons, but as it were, I live at home and am already a picky enough eater without having to complicate things more with my mom.

But I don't eat a whole lot of meat, in any case, and ever since I got into college and started eating less, which includes less meat, I've noticed that when I do get sick, it doesn't last as long as it used to, and I rarely get sick now.

If you can afford it, try finding food that is more humanely processed, like free range chicken.
If you ever become vegetarian, do note that the milk and eggs still come from the same factory farms if you haven't first committed yourself to humane companies. Also, none of that organic crap. Organic foods are just bullshit.

Why is organic bullshit? From what I understand, its one way to avoid buying GMO (although more organic farmers are sadly finding GMO in their crops), the less pesticides used the less health risks for farm workers, and the less damage done to the environment. I would understand that if meat consumption were to remain the same but all factory farms went free range organic, there would not be enough food or room and would lead to desertification and overgrazing, but for veggies I never heard any reason not to eat organic when possible.

You're in college and your mom still cooks and buys your food for you?

I just love various meats too much to become vegetarian. I already eat a large amount of vegetables, but that's mostly garnishing, or a side dish, for the meat.

Being the red-blooded, rootin' tootin' gun shootin' American that I am, I love the hell out of meat. One of the finest meals around, I think, is a nice, bloody rare Porterhouse steak, and maybe some of that green stuff next to my potato.

However.

I find it morally reprehensible to eat meat in my society. I'm not saying that humans are not natural omnivores, because we are, but what I'm saying is that I at least no longer have a need to eat meat. I have the luxury of not having to hunt for my food, or, in most cases, even worry about going hungry.

And so because of this, I find it wrong to needlessly take the life of another being. I feel it's my moral obligation to abstain from it because I consider it senseless killing. I'm one of those weird people who counts humans as another species of animal and therefore consider killing a cat on par with killing a human, even though they're arguably less sentient.

Now that I'm on the subject, I hate the 'sentience' argument. The argument that a cow is less sentient than a human, and therefore it is ok to kill or to keep in horrible conditions, seems like it should apply to mentally handicapped people. They're less sentient than the rest of us, can I put your retarded child in a cage, get him fat, butcher him, wear his skin, and eat him?

I think most people would disagree with killing retards (maybe not on Gnet, though :rolleyes:)

But I feel maybe I should clarify that meat eating is OK for some, for example, homeless people who have nothing else to eat, or the more tribal cultures that still rely on hunting as a major source of food. Chad from accounting doesn't need to hunt for his food, but Tarzan King of the Jungle might, and that's perfectly OK.

I should also clarify my stance on plant eating, because I know what everybody is going to say already, that plants are alive and less sentient then humans. My reply? I have to eat something, and plants got the short end of the stick. It sucks for them, but really I don't think they'll complain as they don't have thoughts or feelings. I try not to even kill bugs if I can help it, but sometimes it's unavoidable.

Been a vegetarian since I was 8.
Don't really know why I started. Kinda just me being a stupid kid. Read some shit in a magazine about diseases you can get from meat, and I knew a vegetarian who I talked to a lot.

and I decided to be one.

Right now I am really glad I am a vegetarian, however. Not a big part of my life, but I'm definitely glad I am a vegetarian.

Is it just me or do goths seem to be more prone to be vegetarian? I've never meet a preppy vegetarian in my life, yet 10-20% of my friends are vegetarians.

Most pesticides are benign. The issue is bad regulation, not pesticides.
Because organic food to be classified as organic cannot use synthetic fertilizers.
What this means is that the biggest, if not the only, fertilizer organic farms use is bovine manure, the biggest contaminant in the world. And let's not forget that this directly ties the organic industry as dependent on the existence of the bovine industry.

You promote "humane" meat but you're upset that farms might use animal fertilizer? Aside from poisons found in synethic fertilizer, that does not mean that large non-organic farms do not use manure or bloodmeal in addition. Also, organic farms use less fertilizers anyway since they rely on crop rotation and green manure, and plant and mineral based fertilizers are available and widely used. While no doubt organic farms do use manure, not all of them do and even the ones that do are more likely just using it in addition to green manure and other non-animal fertilizers, its not like they utterly need it or are dependant on the bovine industry, at least no more so than any other farm. Its like saying I won't use the bus because their tires might have animal in them and then I go and buy my own car with leather seats.

Less meat is produced than the bread thats used to feed the animals. If people would just make bread with the grain it'd end world hunger.

Uh, no, it isn't at all. That's a terrible analogy.
You just said a bunch of "but it might" clauses which naively presume that organic farms are small humane enterprises by people who care.
They are not. They are overwhelmingly merely subsidiaries to the same big agricultural industries, and the overwhelmingly use animal fertilizers.
Organic-obsessed lifestyles are as unsustainable as meat-based diets, and way more hypocritical.

The real practical solution is industrial agriculture veganism. I'm sick and tired of petty bourgeois people denying the crucial importance of the green revolution.

Can you explain to me why the need for a green revolution ? I dont mean to fret, I'm just ignorant on this subject.

I've been looking into a diet of only vegetables, fruits, and hemp seed.
No grains.
I might try it out. I'll let you guys know.
But if I'm right, then its the diet of the future.

There's might because you're painting a whole industry as if there are no exceptions. There are smaller organic farms that you can buy from, perhaps locally if you live in a place where there are local farms that are worse. On the other hand, you say that regulation is needed for pesticides and most are benign so its a moot point, but thats a big if too. Farming regulation can be very difficult, especially when it comes to animal products since their lobbyists have way too much influence. IF a farm chooses not to use harmful chemicals, then its okay, but not everyone is able to find that out but the organic label does ensure no pesticides, so no worries about that, and no GMO.

As for sustainability, I know we're always going to need an amount of industrial farming, and I certainly do encourage more regulation and I'm too poor to eat organic much of the time, but when I do have the money for it I'd just rather eat something that I know comes from a good source than one I don't know. When there is better regulation, I'll feel a bit better about it. As for whether its bourgeois or not, most people I know who tout organic are working class, we're trying to see if we can't start an urban garden in the near future (sadly we all live in basement apartments with animals around) and my local Food Not Bombs tends to get donations from local farms including the few organic farms we have, and my roommate and I do get free food from her parents when they harvest their organic garden. I have no feelings that organic farms are owned by philanthropists who till the earth with unicorns, just generally they're at least the lesser of evils as of right now.

Who is living vegan / vegetarian? And why?

I 'm vegan. For two years now, three more as vegetarian. I answer your questions.

Ethic reasons? Yes, of course, the cruelty, insdustrialization and fucking capitalism.

Medical reasons? I think there's more heathlty.

Religious reasons? I don`t think is religion, but i belive in the conection and equilibrium with the mother earth and his/her creatures.

Flavor reasons? I don`t quit meat for flavor, is delicious. But my beliefs are more importants.

Good Job, me too.
As much as I love to shit on capitalism (and I do) there are carnivorous communists.

Only when care is taken. A vegan who doesn't make sure they're getting the right nutrients and simply eats junk food is going to be very sick.

Belief in the super natural is religion, whether major or not. The Idea of "Mother" Nature is religious.
Get spell check.

...Fuck you, holy roller.

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Tofu Vegan Zombie for you all!!!!!!