A little of column A a little of column STFU!

I did not say that or anything similar. I actually agreed that there are contradictions, and further to the point, that they were caused by human imperfection. These guys didn't have Microsoft Office to share and hone their document to perfection, and worse, their publications were corrupted by humans hundreds of years later.

So returning to the original point of the opening post (unless I misread it of course, my brain's Broca area doesn't always interpret language the same as everyone else), I submit that it is acceptable to use the imperfect, contradictory bible as a guide to living compared to a vacuum.

If I may suggest: it would be more efficient and helpful to your cause if you (speaking of atheists as a group) would perhaps compose and provide a non-theistic guide to living as a replacement.

Thomas Jefferson said:
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."


But he didn't say what would replace the scaffolding. You and I know that what is needed to replace it is reason, but your theme and the intent of this thread is to point out weaknesses in the bible, and this is used by the masses. The masses need something (an "opiate" as you repeat the jaded quote), and to remove it (the only way would be banning, otherwise it will continue and your point to move away from it is lost), would lead to worse social chaos and conflict than now exists. This is not talking out of my ass. For example: Let's say somehow we could convince all Christians to become atheists. We would be a godless nation would we not? And how would Islamic nations feel about that? Why, they would still hate us. A nation that states their god Allah is non-existent would be an evil affront to their faith. Surely you must agree with this conclusion. So American life in the world would not be any better without the bible, in that regard.

So, until atheists provide a compelling, widespread, simple to understand and yes, even emotional replacement for the bible (for humans are emotional), it is very unlikely it will go away, and for the above reasons, is better than the alternative of having no socially widespread guide to reacting to life's sorrow's, threats, disappointments etc.

Does the above justify you guys putting some skin in the game? Writing up a replacement that "joe six pack" would pick up and use to replace the bible?

Or are you just going to continue whining about the bible without submitting a viable alternative? That is not a jab. We are talking about the majority population here, that is not as intelligent as you and Kontan and Alan and the rest. We are talking about average folks.

Damn time limit.
Sorry for the typos in the last few lines.

I was talking to, and quoting Corpsey there, not you. He believes in the literal truth of the Bible.

I agree with you here, there does need to be an emotional replacement. As for submitting a written ALTERNATIVE...that's a bit more difficult. I'm tempted to say documents such as the bill of rights, the basic social contract, and our system of laws, already fills the "laws" portion, and there are VOLUMES of philosophy, form Socrates to Nietzsche from which to draw inspiration.

Personally, my religious/communal impulses are already filled by art. The East Village open Mic. and theatre scene fills that urge pretty well. I get emotional about living my life, and being friggin' awesome. Life is about reaching your potential, appreciating the time that you have, and making the world a better place for the next generation. There's alot more power in being a good person because it's the right thing to do, as opposed to doing it because you think it will result in going to heaven/avoiding hell.

But an actual book? That's tricky. I'm subtlety pushing my philosophy on life via my various plays etc.

I think honestly, the age of the Authoritarians is coming to an end. I give Jillian alot of shit about Anarchy, but I would think it best if society moves in a socio-anarchistic direction both in our system of trading, and in our approach to spiritual authority.

It's not about giving people a new book/king/preacher to bow down to, it's about uplifiting the human, and getting us to accept and thrive under the idea that we alone are the arbitrators of our purpose and destiny. Slowly moving society in a direction where they can accept that freedom and the responsibility that comes with accepting the non-existence of God(s) and letting go of their perceived authority over our lives.

So I suppose my "constructive" answer to the non-existence of God is to climb mountains, run marathons, create art, and eviscerate stupid ideas as often, and loudly, as possible.

Also: i think it's fallacious to say that American Life wouldn't be any better without the Bible. Sure radical Muslims would still hate us, but we wouldn't have radical leaders throwing us into wars with no exit strategy because they assumed God would provide. We wouldn't be currently oppressing the entire GLBT community and shooting ourselves in the foot by forbidding them to marry/serve in the military, and the Tea-Party wouldn't be being voted into power by the religious right because "it's the Christian thing to do". Poor people would stop voting republican because republicans are "the party of faith". Gay kids wouldn't be offing themselves left and right due to persecution by Christian bigots.

So no, getting rid of religion wouldn't solve all of our problems, but it would solve quite a few.

And, might I add, that without the presence of religion in our society, these bigots would be much easier to define and deal with. Taking away their divine free pass for bigotry, would make it much much harder for them to be an asshole.

Uh.... actually I am going to disagree with that even if some people find it to be a long stretch. The Islamic revival is an extremely recent phenomenon that emerged as resistance to America's increasingly imperialistic anti-communism throughout the globe.
The Islam world had a streak of marxism during the 60's and 70's just like the rest of the world, but it was quickly suppressed by the conservative and theocratic sectors of society which were encouraged by the united states as a better alternative than pinkos. Best example: the Iran Revolution.
We are one generation younger than the era of imperial struggle for satellite countries, but we have to remember that way after McCarthyism, foreign intervention was justified as a divine duty just as much as manifest destiny and the Iraq War.

Christian dogma can be strange, because there are various tricks of the trade. One is the difference between the first five books (laws) and writings. Laws are consistent, in better copies of the doctrine, yet writings are like odes and parabolic stories giving thanks to God, without as much actual tendency to actual religion.

The bible was translated, so there are concerns about the truthful translation. The New Testament was drawn from the memories after Christ's death, while they were jailed, so there is always a thread of disbelief in finding the truthfulness around the events.

Churches place angels, images of Christ and the Madonna in all their churches under the explaination of not worshiping them, but not God. To remind people of this there is always painting depicting a hidden firgure of a gray haired man. Some churches even switch it up by having various hidden figures of varying hair color. Though it is commonly accepting man is in the likeness of God, so it's usually a guy.

You see? This is what I am talking about: Catch is stumbling about the edges, eyes dazzled by the interior decoration of church buildings without a clue what the meat of the subject is about. Any replacement for the bible would have to be able to reach people at this level. The bible has survived generation after generation because of the emotional connection. Now I am not insisting that a replacement last for generations, after all we are not after a stagnant document, but a living one that can evolve (after all, that is the problem you have with the bible too yes? That it is no longer relevant in today's society).
But I am insisting that to avoid a social vacuum a replacement will need to reach those on the fringe of mental faculty, because after all, Jesus wanted to help the downtrodden, the hopeless, the lost, the...you get the idea. A replacement needs to help the sick. The healthy can rely on laws, the arts, biking etc. as you said earlier.

HP... If you actually NEED an instructions manual on how to be a decent human being, you probably need to be institutionalized or jailed.

What Kontan said.

There seems to be this perception among Christians that people NEED religion. That without a book and a lake of fire to scare them into compliance, the unwashed masses of humanity would be a horde or ravening psychopathic killers. That without some guy with a beard giving you 10 rules to live by, you'd as soon break a bottle over the next guys head and r@pe his girlfriend as look at him.

This is not correct. The laws we have keep people's anti-social tendencies pretty much in-line. If you're looking for rules to live by, or philosophies you can find thousands of them with a single google search.

Christian dominance happened organically, you can't really force something like that by design. The best you can hope for is to steer civilization in the right direction and hope for the best. There's not going to BE a vacuum, because Christianity isn't going to be going away over night.

If you look at the demographics, atheists and the non-religious are the largest minority in the country, and our numbers are growing every year. The next step is for us to become more outspoken, especially about how truly horrific the teachings of the bible are. Then elect some non-religious representatives to office, and in a century or two, hopefully it's not just Christianity, but all world religions which will be politically irrelevant.

We're not trying to put a new authority in the bible's place, we're trying to get rid of that method of Authoritarian thinking all together.

That way we can focus all our efforts on fighting those damn Sea Otters.

Has it? If, not prosecuted but not lifted up by the Roman Empire, yes it might still be around, but it has also been used as a tool by the Romans and later the Holy Roman Empire as a means of unification, political gains and power has been a big part of the success of Christianity. And because people are put to the sword, because people are told to follow this religion but they don't have the interest to actually read the Bible and come to their own conclusions, most Christians are pretty ignorant about the Bible. Go look at the thread in Spooky News where Atheists and Buddhists and even Mormons tested better on religion than Christians did, and most of the questions were centered around Christianity. I'm often surprised that despite the fact I don't remember much about the Bible study we were forced to do in school, and the fact its been almost ten years now since I converted, I know more about the Bible than most Christians I know. How can the Bible be so important to them if they don't know what it says? How is it keeping them in check?

I do believe religion is important, it has shaped our culture for better and for worse, and many people still find value in it. But you have very little faith in your fellow human beings. The average person is not weak. Abhorrence to big sins like murder, I think, is completely human. They can logically reason why its not okay, they feel its not okay. And we still have many other ideologies. In Canada socialism does have enough of a stronghold on our minds that there is very strong resistance to having a two tier health system, we want it completely socialized. Enough people realize that it is a necessity and are perfectly willing to pay for it, even if they don't feel strongly enough to identify as socialist, maybe they're even Conservatives and most Liberals agree too. Feminism has changed laws and minds about women, even if a person doesn't think themselves as a feminist, the fact that marital rrape is no longer legal, for example, or that date rrape is recognized, is due to an ideology. Even the most fundamentalist Christian might be seen to subscribe to so called social Darwinism, when it comes to things like fighting health care. Even basic things, like saying thank you, holding doors open for others, standing in line, doesn't come from religion but rituals that have been impressed on us that we have a lot of trouble breaking. If someone cuts in line, a lot of people are just confused the ritual was broken, and might not say anything to them. We swim in ritual, and breathe ideology whether we realize it or not. There will be no vacuum.

We owe much progress to being able to tear down old ways and go forward with new, but the old ways don't go quietly into the night, they're still around. Religion was persecuted for years in China, particularly Confucianism, and now that they are legal again, its surprising to see how many people held on to those beliefs, even when it wasn't self serving, even when certain facets of those beliefs were contrary to progress (Confucianism condemned women to servitude and forced children to filial piety, to the point where a son could be executed for striking his father, hence the strong hatred for it during the Communist Revolution and Cultural Revolution.)

So, why does it survive? Is it because it really is a crutch? Again, there are many ideologies that we follow, whether we are religious or not. Without religion, we'd probably pursue one of those more earnestly. Or not. But when it is a crutch, faith and advocacy suffers. Its disrespectful to do good things just to make yourself feel better, no? Its a good side effect, but whats the point if its completely self serving? Why would God like you more if you worshiped him just because you believed you could get something out of it? Isn't this where the sale of indulgences, the worship of relics come in? And ultimately, the exploitation of that pathetic hope? Isn't that what makes faith abandoned when it is no longer self serving, or worse, makes fanatics?

Religion has a place, as a religious person I do believe so, but its not something I think other people need. I am religious because of personal experience, not because I feel I need it, because I'll be a weak person without it, but because personally, I feel like I'm missing out on the big picture and I'd like to see it, and personally, I've had experiences that led me to believe that Zen is the way. Other people have similar experience within the Christian faith, and believe like I do that they don't have the answers but want to find them, I know agnostics and even atheists who I can have wonderful conservations with about spirituality, who can check my beliefs for inconsistencies and play devil's advocate, and keep me on my way, and I find more companionship in them than I do with other Buddhists who believe because its a crutch for them or because they think the world is going to hell in a hand basket and want to feel superior to others, and try to convert each other.

Anyway, atheists are perfectly healthy people even if they are average, and still people who believe in something, even if it isn't supernatural things.

I think this video does a fantastic job of illustrating why a person can be perfectly fine, and perhaps better without religion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk

What have I been saying? "sorrow, disappointments, the downtrodden, the hopeless..." not the healthy, who do not need spirituality. You would jail someone who is saddened by the death of a loved one? I have been talking about the bible as a source of solace, not as a social law! I have said that it should not be used for law. Please go back and read my earlier posts.

Oh I see, so you mean the people who DO need a crutch. How can we inspire them without stories about Jesus and the love of God?

It's actually pretty easy

People who are sick, or downtrodden, or hopeless can easily find inspiration elsewhere, and what's better, when you talk about REAL things, you aren't lying to them anymore. Sometimes reality can be harsh and disturbing, but guess what? So can faith. Hell the christian faith (especially the concept of hell) is way more disturbing and de-motivational than the harshest things our universe has to offer.

Religion holds no patent on inspiration, and it's far better to lean on your fellow man than on a possible God(s). Religion just acts like it's the only thing which can uplift the downtrodden and give morality to the immoral.

It's all smoke, mirrors, and ages of authoritarian manipulation. At the end of the day, the only thing religion really has is it's own perfected methods of flim-flammery and some guys in silly hats.

Fuck the bible as a source of solace. All it does is give the hopeless a false hope. ...Jesus... will not save the world.

Look. I get it, dude. I'm an incendiary asshole. I mock your faith. I laugh at your ideas. I say that the things that are good and decent about your faith CAN AND DOES exist without the Jesus seal of approval and I understand that from that, you see me as some kind of enemy or some kind of threat.

Honestly, I'm not saying these things. You are. I never ONCE said that those who are mourning or downtrodden should be imprisoned. I said that IF YOU NEED A FUCKING HOLY BOOK TO TELL YOU HOW TO BEHAVE, THEN CLEARLY YOU'RE A GOD DAMN PSYCHOPATH AND YOU PROBABLY SHOULD BE LOCKED UP OR INSTITUTIONALIZED.

Now you're talking about those that need religion because they are weak with personality, then these are the type of people who are basically being molly coddled and made to feel better for choosing to ignore their potential or lacking the ability to appreciate their own existence. I'm willing to bet, that if religion WAS INDEED where it belonged, these "weak" people would actually have no other excuse but to do something productive with their lives or come to terms with their lot.

Life isn't fair. But I'd take sincere and honest fraternity over a unifying lie any day and I can't imagine anyone who would disagree.

Have you guys never heard of liberation theology?

So like I said, go ahead and replace it. Let's see how well your substitution does in a year or so. The proof is in the pudding, not the post. Knock down the bible and the other texts, but not until you have a viable replacement.

Loved the video by the way. That happens everyday already.

Not only is what you are asking me to do impossible (as I can't just up and "replace" the bible with some secular code of conduct at my whim). It would take WAY MORE than a year to see what effect said code would have on civilization.

Furthermore more it is fallacious to claim an idea safe from criticism simply because criticizer can't/does not present a viable alternative. If we're in the middle of the desert, with only a bottle of bleach and I tell you it's a bad idea to quaff said bottle of bleach, you can't say: "Oh yeah? Well what SHOULD I be doing smart guy? answer me that! Don't say I shouldn't drink bleach till you can give me something better to drink!"

So please don't insult my intelligence by trying to say I can't criticize Christianity If I haven't personally written a book of secular, atheist philosophy and somehow eclipsed the Abrahamic religions in adherents a year ago.

famished witty sports anchors with their own laugh track watching guys summit Mt. Everest while sharing half a turkey sandwich with stoically silent homeless men who broke into their office, is a daily occurrence?

Have I been living under a rock?

Nah. I'd rather see religion become totally irrelevant and then in that mindset, we'll see how the next 2000 years is in comparison.

Yeah, I've read about this. Thing is, it still stands that a good law or a good social value based on reason is far better than the exact same law based on faith. I mean, it's cute. More power to them. But I'm feeling a little blood thirsty to fight the sea otters of atheism and with even these guys in the picture, we may not be able to get to that glorious event horizon.

If I'm missing anything on their end, correct me if I'm wrong.

I am somewhat familiar with it.

My initial reaction is to say: "That's not good enough" as I feel that the majority of the biblical text is pro-authoritarianism, but I would still recognize a Liberation Theologist as a political ally of necessity.

I never said you couldn't criticize it, in fact I have publicly criticized Apostle Paul in the New Testament in this forum. But I am not surprised at your balking to put your paper where your mouth is and supply a better alternative.

It may surprise you to learn that I have publicly posted in this forum the intent to create a "Jesus only" bible, omitting laws or dictum's from the apostles, and only enough words of others for context, in terms of Jesus' replies.


I liked your analogy to the desert victims, in debate terms you are right, I should not have tried to push that suggestion. You are off the hook and free to just whine and do nothing to comfort your fellow man. I for one am not going to worry about it as the bible will obviously still be around far longer than the dust of our collective bones and will continue to help people, and also, as I am sure you would be quick to mention, also misused by sociopaths, politicians and pedaling files. But it will do more good than bad, so for now it will continue to be applied as I have been defending: imperfect but comforting, and improving peoples lives.

Meanwhile I will begin working on the Jesus bible and see if I can actually do more than just criticize.

Hey HP, sorry for taking you from the discussed topic, but I have a curiosity, as my Japanese prof used to say. I think you said previously that you are Roman Catholic, yes? It was to my understanding that Catholics subscribe to the Church's interpretation of things, and besides that, what about the Pope being a douche bag about things like homosexuality? Is it still okay to call him out on that, are you alone in your church, is it acceptable for lay persons to question the church, or is the Pope the keeper of the keys, can't argue with him?

Totally not going to use it to turn around and be like AHA, I'm genuinely very curious about it, my mom's Catholic but I can't ask her this kind of stuff.

This is quite a long thread and I don't feel like reading every post(especially since it's obvious from what I DID read that the arguments which ensued change every couple of pages), so I'm just going to comment on the OP and give my view on the Christian bible.

It's mostly common knowledge among atheists and agnostics that the Christian bible(in all of it's versions, languages, and interpretations) contradicts itself numerous times, however it is quite funny to read them all. 80% of Christians that you'll meet(including many priests/pastors) are ignorant to their own scriptures, which of course promotes ignorance to the religion in its entirety. Though hilariously ironic, it is not coincidence that atheists and agnostics are generally substantially more educated on religion than the theists themselves, because this knowledge is the reasons most atheists and agnostics have for speaking against theists.

My main reason for disliking Christians is, though they may be ignorant of it, the God they claim to love and worship is an evil, twisted, perverted asswipe who likes for his followers to murder, ****, pillage, enslave, and generally cause havoc upon those he dislikes, and yet will turn around and expect everyone to agree that he is all-loving and righteous. The few Christians whom actually are educated on their own scriptures will fight to deny the very words their bible speaks; using fallacies like "you're taking it out of context" and "that was a metaphor" and "God is beyond our comprehension". To be frank, this is not a surprise, because it is literally impossible to logically prove something which is based on faith, otherwise it wouldn't be a faith, would it?

Forgot to mention something. Educated Christians also like to use the excuse "the Old Testament was abolished in the New Testament" or "only Jews believe in the Old Testament". This is laughable and proves they are ignorant as well, because Jesus himself said that the Old Testament is, and always will be, valid. Here's one such instance where he said it: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." - Luke 16:17