Nguyen Tuong Van
 

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=75413

I just wondered what everone though about this? I personally think the Australian government did to little to late. There was a chance that if Australia charged him with drug tafficing he could be extradited back here because he wasn't serving a prison sentence, he was on death row. Therefore they wouldn't be able to keep him there. Also he was taking drugs OUT of their country, so technically it was our(Australia) country he was hurting, not theirs. Anway, I'd appreciate to read some other peoples views.

Sorry if this thread has been made...bu I couldn't find it so I decided to make one.

Wow, that's fucked up....

He's on death today.

NO ONE deserves to be put on death row, regardless how indictable their offence(s) are. The death sentence serves no justice and is cruel. Therefore, I do not support Singapore's existing death penality legislation.

Tuong Nguyen committed a serious crime and the reason in attempting to smuggle drugs into Singapore, was to pay his brother's debt. By no means should any reason as such, be validated and praised. Personally, I think in spite of his circumstances he should be punished BUT not sentenced to death.

Since Tuong Nguyen had breached their law, it is only justiciable that he be punished according to the country's law. Hence, this does not conclude that I support the death penality nor do I think Singapore's law is just!

I think Mr John Howard (Govt of Australia) has given reasonable assistance in an attempt to reserve the defendant's life. Also, keep in mind we (Australia) have a good relationship with Singapore, in which I think it is not worth fighting any further.

Furthermore, I'm angry with the fact that some Australians are forgetting the crime Tuong Nguyen had committed and only focusing on his "educated good son and friend" character.

In Australia, the Vietnamese are generally well known for their academic excellence or ashamingly for their drug-related inanity. People like him give the Australians of Vietnames descent a bad name, and not to mention it is degrading. His act of attempting to smuggling drugs, (disregarding his reasons) is absurd! Initially, I felt sorry for the bloke but now I'm ashamed to be of Vietamese desent when I hear about him. It is outrageous to hear Australians praising his acts as "good" or consider him to be another "Ned Kelly".

I am angry, ashamed and outraged.

The death penality needs to be abolished and made illegal!

"Capital Punishment" is NOT a deterrent for crimes.

By enforcing capital punishment, it is a crime in itself.

I am not very happy!

I don't believe in the death penalty period. This is one reason why. He smuggled drugs and that could potentially kill people but his crime did not directly cause phsycal harm to anyone. I think he should be serving his time not dying for something as stupid as this. Governments will only do what they have to do, espescially when it involves stepping on another countries toes. Too bad that, in this case, it equals an unfair punishment that is cruel.

The Singaporean Government supported the death penality and allowed it to continue to be enforced. He is a fucking hypocritical repugnant murderer!

So he was a murderer!?! He smuggled the drugs, true. He did not force the drug addicts to choose to use a substance that could kill them. I smoke ciggies. They are bad for me and will kill me. My choice, as stupid as it is. The cigerette companies are not responsible for my choice to smoke just as drug dealers and smugglers are not responsible for the actions of people who use drugs.

he know the law, all aussies know the drug laws in indonesia.

he made a choice.

i have no pity.

i fully support the death penalty and wish it was utilized more often. if you're gonna play, shut the fuck up when it's time to pay - especially in a country like china.

no wher near china babe, good to see you tho! :D

china is harsh on dugs but this is in indonesia
they dislike aussies.

Actually, its in Singapore not Indonesia.

There's plenty of criminals whose executions wouldn't keep me up late at night, but as long as there's a margin of error, capital punishment is fallible.

It's terrible that this guy is going to die at 25 years of age for trafficing.

singapore?

is this not one of the bali nine?

No, only "pretty girls" smuggle drugs in Bali.

*cough* Michelle Leslie the slut of a cunt *cough*

a couple of things / thoughts -

any country that would slaughter newborns and / or crush protesters with tanks is not one to fuck with - in my opinion. if their laws require the death penalty for the smuggling of drugs, common sense says they'll enforce it. china has little regard when it comes to the value of life of the individual.

blushing heliophobe - all of human life is fallible. that's not a valid point - again, in my opinion.

Yes, every country has different laws to cater their national or local problems such as the murder rate within the country/state.

But, punishment is meant to prevent the criminal from repeating his/her crime and to deter the crime by discouraging potiental offenders.

Capital punishment is not the only form of punishment. It does no one justice. What has the defendant learnt? That it's not okay to breach the law by murdering someone, yet it's fair to sentence the defendant on death row? Thus, there are various methods of punishing a defendant without resorting to the death penality, which I think is harsh, cruel and unnecessary.

Capital punishment is a crime in itself.

Also, even if capital punishment is successful in decreasing the number of criminals in certain states/countries, I still don't support the legislation.

Everyone has a right to live.

No not one of the Bali nine but I think we will be facing the same thing with them soon enough, not all of them but I think the 3 ringleaders will be put to death. Then again death by firing squad is better then death by hanging.

Nguyen's time in prision before his death:

"I found myself in deep sorrow for the true victims, the families of those whom (sic) suffer as a result of losing a loved one to drugs," he wrote in March this year.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=75872

EE - People have been wrongfully imprisoned and executed, and that blows. That's all the point I was trying to make. It is unbelievably sad this guy is dying at age 25. That's it.

Another reason why I think capital punishment mocks justice is that I'm sure there is at least one person, who has been sentenced to death for a crime he/she did not commit.

Firstly, I'd like to point out that with 400 grams of Heroin, that would have produced 26000 PURE hits. Let's bring in the fact that heroin is cut with other substances, and isn't injected pure, that number stretches out to 40000 AT LEAST. That's 40000 people who would either become addicted, feed their addiction, or die because of their addiction to this drug. Because of this ONE smuggler. Who would mourn their tragic lives and deaths? Not Nguyen. He didn't care. He did it for MONEY. In my opinion, that deliberate act of callous apathy deserves his death.

Secondly, why blame the government? They have no jurisdiction, and are simply unable to act. How is it their fault? HE committed this crime. HE attempted this heinous act. Nguyen brought this upon himself. If he had cared about anyone else except for his brothers monetary debts, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

On another note, considering that it is possible that this man may have ended up being responsible for up to (let's be serious) 5000 deaths - why should he be treated with any mercy? And WHY should he not deserve the death penalty? In my opinion, if one attempts to deprive another innocent person of life (innocent meaning they are no physical threat to the person who commits the murder) then they should be punished accordingly. If he were to be responsible for up to 5000 deaths, that's a massive number. He should die for that. He has no reason to pose yet another such threat to society. Meanwhile, it'd free up space in the prison system, which is getting more chock-full of social scum every day. Not to mention those people who are convicted wrongly, or of relatively meaningless crimes.

And whilst on that note, let me just ask. What sentence would this person have received if tried in Australia? A immigrant who directly lies and INTENTIONALLY infects backpackers with AIDS is given 9 years. Murderers and rapists are given as low as 2 years in prison. Drug crime? Let's give a good behaviour bond. Be serious people, the judicial system in Australia has to be redeemed. I'm not saying death penalty, but I'm saying let's look at the cases and increase these ridiculous sentences.

I'm sure I'll be flamed, but the post above contains MY opinion. No one elses. Thank you :)

I can clearly see your points and think they are of good reasons. My friend recently spoke to me, from a bias point of view (He is a doctor), said that killing one person to save many is reasonable. Hence, I can see how your opinions is of relevance. But, I still stand still and look down on capital punishment and think that a less severe punishment such as a life time or eternal prisionment is of reasonable means of sentence. This way, the criminal has no escape of re-committing the same crime.

AGAIN, capital punishment shouldn't even be living.

Depends on what you believe the justice system is for.

Punishment, or rehabilitation?

ps - by saying how shitty I think it is that this guy is dying, I'm not excusing his deeds. Dying at 25 is terrible.

He committed a crime, that's not excusable and he should be punished. He has common sense and logic to know that his act was wrong.

But, he WOULD NOT be responsible for anyone's death. As, the person who "chooses" to take or buy drugs from him is putting their own life on line for doing so.

If I died due to the reason being that I overdosed on drugs. No one is to blame for my death.

white blood cells.

these are the warriors of our immune system. they circulate our bodies, searching for, identifying and eradicating anything present with the intention to harm. the fact that white blood cells exist does not dissuade invading microbes from entering our system to cause harm, but when they are found, they are attacked and killed. it's a basic way of dealing with a threat to the greater good, or larger body. bacteria, viruses, cancer cells, etc. are not quarantined for rehabilitation - they are destroyed. white blood cells are efficient because they operate on a basic principle - if it's a threat to damage the system, eliminate it. it's a beautiful concept, really.

humans, by virtue of their ability to think and overthink, have attributed much "worth" to all other humans. whether an altruist, like mother teresa or a murderer, like charles jaynes (look him up - he's only one of hundreds of thousands of shitbags, though just to keep his "worth" in perspective) people are labeled by those who consider themselves "enlightened" with the broad stroke of being worthwhile. why?

the contention of it being "a shame" that this 25 year old is being put to death arouses in me several feelings - 1.) curiosity, 2.) disgust, 3.) confusion.

what is it about his death, exactly, do you find so upsetting? what is it about his life, exactly, do you feel needs to be preserved?

and the argument of an occassional, errant misjudgement does not, to me, validate the argument of obliterating an option due to a fallible system. if such an argument is to gain validity, then such a criteria should be applied across the board - prison, marriage, the decision to have a child, etc.

i don't see the point in arguing FOR someone who exists mainly to spread some degree of misery. it just doesn't make sense to me.

Then again, my opinion is quite bias, as I live in a country where capital punishment does not exist. Also, I've yet to be closely affected by a criminal who has harmed me, my family or anyone closely related to me. In the meantime, my opinion remains the same.

Death Penalty No Longer Logically Defensible
 

I have long been an opponent of the Death Penalty, for moral reasons. I thought it was time to enumerate the argument for why the death penalty no longer makes any logical sense.

--------------

1) Due to the appeal system, and the process that is involved in applying a death sentence, it's more expensive to kill a criminal than to house them in prison for the remainder of their natural days.

* The California death penalty system costs taxpayers $114 million per year beyond the costs of keeping convicts locked up for life. (www.deathpenaltyinfo.org - Death Penalty Fact Sheet in Adobe Acrobat Format)

* In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at
the highest security level for 40 years. (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992).


2) I believe that innocent people HAVE been executed. We have been told by our politicians that the system is foolproof, but those assertions were lies and/or delusions. There is no conclusive evidence yet that an innocent person has been executed, but based on the information below, I think it is statistically probable that it has already happened, and we just don't have the proof of it yet.

* Since 1973, over 120 people have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence. In 2000, 8 inmates were freed from death row
and exonerated; in 2001 – 2002, another 9 were freed; and in 2003, 12 were exonerated. In 2004, there were 6 exonerations.
(Staff Report, House Judiciary Subcommittee on Civil & Constitutional Rights, Oct. 1993, with updates from DPIC).

* As of December 5, 2005, the Innocence Project has applied modern DNA testing and forensic science to achieve the exoneration of 163 mistakenly convicted criminals. (www.innocenceproject.org)

* Some people have been convicted based on flawed DNA testing. The Houston Police Department's DNA lab has come under fire over the last two years for rampant failures. "There seemed to be a total lack of concern about profound errors committed by certain members of the lab's staff," grand jury member Joe King said as he read from a statement on behalf of the panel. (www.cnn.com)

* Caryl Chessman may have been an innocent man who was executed. His story was detailed in the 1977 Alan Alda movie "Kill Me If You Can." The following information is from (Crime Magazine - The Death Penalty)

In 1948 an armed robber/rapist was victimizing couples found on lonely
roads in the Los Angeles area. Among the many criminals
questioned about this crime was Caryl Chessman. He signed a confession,
which he later recanted, contending he had been coerced to confess
by the police. There was almost no question that he had been
interrogated for 72 hours and had been beaten to some extent.

Chessman was executed in San Quentin's gas chamber, on
May 2, 1960. It was revealed that a federal judge had granted
him a last-minute reprieve, but the judge's clerk had lost precious
minutes dialing a wrong number before getting through to the death
chamber, and the cyanide pellets had been dropped only moments
before word of the stay got through to San Quentin's warden.

* "Perhaps the bleakest fact of all is that the death penalty is imposed not only in a freakish and discriminatory manner, but also in some cases upon defendants who are actually innocent. - Justice William J. Brennan, Jr., 1994 (Innocence and the Death Penalty: The Increasing Danger of Executing the Innocent)

3) The death penalty no longer is supported by majority public or private opinion, nor is it respected as a legitimate deterrent to crime.

* The October 2005 Gallup Poll found that overall support of
the death penalty was 64% (down from 80% in 1994). Another
Gallup Poll (May 2004) revealed that when respondents are
given the choice of life without parole as an alternate
sentencing option, support for the death penalty is at 50%.

* A 1995 Hart Research Poll of police chiefs in the US found that
the majority of the chiefs do not believe that the death penalty is
an effective law enforcement tool.

* According to a survey of the former and present presidents
of the country's top academic criminological societies, 84%
of these experts rejected the notion that the death penalty
acts as a deterrent to murder. (Radelet & Akers, 1996)

4) Other reasons to abandon the Death Penalty:

* In 1991, for the first time in U.S. history, cities spent more on law enforcement than education. ... While new prisons are being built, schools are crumbling, highways are growing potholed, parks are left to decay, and opportunity-generating programs are being cut. These conditions breed crime in the long run. (StopViolence.com - What Every American Should Know About the Criminal Justice System)

* "The death penalty is spending millions and millions of taxpayer dollars with very little to show for it. California, for example, has over 600 people on death row; they spend approximately $100 million per year on the death penalty beyond the ordinary costs of the criminal justice system. The state averages less than one execution per year—that amounts to $100 million for one execution! It is absurd. And not one penny spent on the death penalty goes toward corrections, where it might do some good." (Speech by DPIC Executive Director Richard Dieter at the American Correctional Association Annual Conference, August, 2003)

* America incarcerates five times as many people per capita as Canada and 7 times as many as most European democracies; the U.S. has the highest incarceration rate in the world. America's overall crime rates are similar to comparable nations. For the crime of assault, 2.2% of Americans are victimized each year, compared to 2.3% of Canadians and 2.8% of Australians. For car theft, the U.S. rate is 2.3%, Australia is at 2.7% and England is at 2.8%. (StopViolence.com - What Every American Should Know About the Criminal Justice System)

* Most of the civilized countries in the world have banned the state-sanctioned execution. In 2004, there were at least 3,797 executions in 25 countries around the world. China, Iran, the United States, and Viet Nam were responsible for 94 percent of these known executions. (The Death Penalty: An International Perspective)
... Nice company, eh? (Ben)
---------------------

When you realize that it costs more to execute a criminal that to imprison them for life, that the Death Penalty is not considered an effective deterrent to crime, that is no longer supported by a majority of the public, that crime experts and enforcers do not believe it to be a useful tool, that it drains resources from programs proven to reduce crime, that innocent people are regularly sentenced to death and that it not a form of punishment used by most civilized countries in the world, you can come to one conclusion. The only reason to continue supporting the Death Penalty in the United States is as a form of vengeance.

I believe we do need to be more compassionate to the victims of crime, especially violent crime. But vengeance has no place in our criminal justice system. If we are to live in a world where we hope the future will be better than today, then we must want to pursue a constant evolution to a more civil society.

"From this day forward, I no longer shall tinker with the machinery of death. For more than 20 years I have endeavored--indeed, I have struggled along with a majority of this court, to develop procedural and substantive rules that would lend more than the mere appearance of fairness to the death penalty endeavor. Rather than continue to coddle the court's delusion that the desired level of fairness has been achieved and the need for regulation eviscerated, I feel morally and intellectually obligated to concede that the death penalty experiment has failed." --Harry Blackmun, retired Supreme Court Justice, 1994

I welcome your comments.

true, very very true. i have always been opposed to the death penalty.

'killing is wrong. you killed someone. we are going to kill you.'

what the fuck? i rest my case.

And comments you shall receive... but not from me.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I do believe that there is at least one "innocent" person sentenced to death for a crime he/she did commit.

Also, the politicians don't need to say so, it's common sense to know that the legal system of any country is not "foolproof" in general.

ben -

good topic, but please make sure topics such as this aren't being discussed elsewhere, as it was in rockandrose's thread, before making new threads. that way i don't have to merge them cuz i'm lazy like that.

thanx.

E.E.,

Thanks for merging my post with this thread. I really did scan the threads for anything relating to the death penalty before posting it, but short of reading every post there was no way for me to know that this was the same subject. Thanks for modifying the thread subject so that is more obvious.

I am glad that my post could be moved to support this thread

Ben, how do I even think properly about this subject when your avatar is bouncing like that?

Lol.

Yeah, its kinda like HYPNOSIS, eh? Actually, I find that happends to me in real life too ... until a voice says something like "Eyes up, mister!" ... LOL!

i agree. between your and al's avatars, tit heaven is just a screen-scroll away.

Bali Nine Warning
 

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...55E601,00.html

"In the case of the nine Australians currently detained in Bali for various kinds of drug-trafficking offences, there is a possibility that there might be a death penalty," he said. "So we anticipate possible emotional reactions in Australia."

"Drug trafficking creates the possible death of so many others -- those who consume the drugs -- so those involved in this drug-trafficking are sanctioned with the death penalty.

"In (Australia's) case, you don't have the death penalty as part of your positive law."

"This is a matter of the sovereign rights by Australia's neighbours to impose or not to impose the death penalty."

"The resumption of military-to-military relations is somewhat overdue. The US is dealing with a new, democratic government in Indonesia. As a nation, Indonesia shares the same ideals and values of democracy, human rights and freedoms as the US does."

Ahhh....More Australians (more human beings) who may possible be sentenced to death.

Hopefully, the recent death of Mr Nguyen has opened up the eyes all of Australians to see how "drugs" has imposed great harm on others, a lesson to be learnt. But, I hope this recent death of Mr Nguyen and the current possible death penality imposed on the "Bali Nine Australians" doesn't affect the Australian legal system, in which I would hate to see Capitial Punishment be enforced here.

I'm sorry my friend but I must disagree. What about the poor children who are born with an addiction, because of addicted mothers? Or those young members are abused and forced to take drugs because of their abusive surroundings such as parents or guardians? I know that DOCS and such have a duty of care but that does not mean that these people are physically addicted and need to handle that addiction.

Of course, if you were of free choice and you had several options etc. like the majority of people who die of overdoses, then you would be correct.

He posed a 'threat' to promote more "drug users" and "drug-related" deaths, which is a serious crime and makes him a moron. But he would not be responsible for anyone's death. If he had of successfully smuggled the drugs back to Australia and sold all of it. Then, in a sense, he would be the provider and is not responsible for anyone's death, hence I think "duty of care" would not apply.

The buyer is the dumbnut to purchase the drugs. They're the one taking advantage of the source and risking their life. And...the children who were born with a drug addiction inherited through their parent's genes or whatever the case is, well, the parents are at fault, the children have to suffer. Parents as such should be ashamed of themselves and learn what common sense means.

Naturally, there are exceptions to this where for instance, a girl gets r.a.p.e.d and gives birth to a drugged baby etc.. blah

You cannot entirely place a blame on one party.

His act of potentially putting many Australians at risk was selfish, careless and plain stupid, that act is not excusable. But, to blame the on him for anyone's death related to the drugs he could of sold is not a fair judgement.

I don't care if they prosecute drug crimes over there. Heroin is serious enough that I am okay with life sentences for people who are convicted of crimes like this. I just don't think execution makes sense from a legal, financial or moral point of view.

Lock him away in a cell and never let him see the light of freedom again. Hell, I'd like to see people convicted of these kinds of crimes have to work off their dept to society in some kind of in-prison factory.

"what is it about his life, exactly, do you feel needs to be preserved? - edible_eye"

Oh, because he's worth more alive than dead ... free state-owned slave labor. And anyone who wants to talk about that being a civil rights or human rights violation has to admit it's better than being dead.

Disregarding the financial aspect and my morals on humans, I think the death penality is an easy way to deal with a criminal, by erasing their existence off the earth. By doing so, it doesn't erase the problem. There will always be murderers sweeping around. There will always be rapist around. Drug mules will be around for a long time.

Again I repeat, capital punishment is not a deterrent!

It is better to lock away a criminal for life and let him/her suffer, knowing that he cannot escape into the 'real' world. I think a lifetime in prision is more ideal than die in one shot of pain. Let the insanity take hold of the criminal whilst enduring a lifetime in prision. Let the criminal hope to die but can't.

In general, I think it is a lot harder to live than to die.

Nguyen funeral 'a celebration'
 

7th of December 2005

Hundreds of mourners have gathered at Melbourne's St Patrick's Catholic Cathedral for the funeral of drug smuggler Van Tuong Nguyen, who was hanged by Singapore last week.

A friend of Nguyen, Bronwyn Lew has tied yellow ribbons around several elm trees surrounding the stately cathedral ahead of the requiem mass, which was expected to attract 1000 mourners.

Ms Lew, like many of the mourners, is dressed in white as requested by Nguyen's family.

"The yellow ribbon is the symbol for the rehabilitation program in the Changi Prison," she said. "This symbol is about rehabilitation ? that's the way it should be.

"He should have had a chance."

Father Peter Hansen, who conducted the mass in English and Vietnamese and referred to Nguyen as Caleb, his baptismal name, said Nguyen had made terrible mistakes.

"There was a period of Van's life when he was not a virtuous man," he said.

"I don't try to conceal that, his family and friends don't try to conceal that, Van himself didn't try and conceal that."

But Father Hansen called on those who said Nguyen deserved to die to show compassion and understanding.

"Those people don't understand that people can change," he said.

"(One) can move from a life that does harm to one that does good."

One of the last letters Nguyen wrote on death row, reflecting on his desire for people to be compassionate, was read to mourners.

One of the last letters Nguyen wrote on death row, reflecting on his desire for people to be compassionate, was read to mourners.

"Could you please ask everyone to put their hands on their hearts to feel my love, appreciation and God's awesome love," he wrote.

Mourners also answered Nguyen's request that they embrace those beside them.

Nguyen's lawyer, Lex Lasry QC, said his client had rehabilitated and shown remorse.

"In the last two years of Van's life, selfishness gave way to selflessness, lies gave way to truth, and indulgence gave way to spirituality," Mr Lasry said.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...55E601,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...5E1702,00.html

Death penalty will be logical if.......
 

..... Lee Hsien Loong is the one put to death.

If there is anyone that needs to be put to death is Lee Hsien Loong and his cronies. Singapore has significant investments in Burma with the junta and the drug lords. So they resort to executing a drug mule while protecting and trading with the drug suppliers -what hypocrisy!

Please read:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Gl...ore_Drugs.html

May the soul of Caleb rest in peace.

If you murder somebody, you deserve to die. period. there is no ifs ands or buts about it. You took a life, you owe a life. And the appeals process is bullshit too. That is what costs so many millions. Not the act of execution itself. Did the person you murdered get an appeals process before their death? No. So then, why should you? Not only do I agree 100% with the death penalty - in the case of murder - but I'll add further that I also believe murderers should suffer the same fate as their victims. Kill them the way they killed. They deserve no less.

As for innocent people being executed, that's a shame. Its also not very common, in the U.S. But still it is something that needs to be dealt with by re-evaluating the entire process. But when there is absolutely zero doubt in anybody's mind that this person murdered this person, and all the evidence is clear - and there are tons of cases in which the evidence is extremely clear - then there is no excuse or logic behind an appeals process or spending 10 to 20 years sitting in prison sucking up tax payers money. The victim didn't have that luxury, why should their murderer have it?

Rehabilitation is assenine. You can spend the rest of your life in therapy and repenting your actions and feeling sorry for yourself. It doesn't excuse the fact that you murdered somebody. And it doesn't bring back the person you deliberately killed.

But the death penalty should ONLY be applied to proven murderers. In cases of self defense or accidental homicide, no. Make the punishment fit the crime.

Drug trafficing, ****, theft, vandalism, etc, do not deserve the death penalty. The idea that someone should be executed because of drug trafficing is absurd. They aren't responsible for the death of a drug addict anymore than gun manufacturers are responsible for the deaths of shooting victims. People need to start taking more responsibility for themselves and stop trying to blame everybody else for their own fucking stupidity. I don't have anything against the use of drugs or drug addicts. It is their choice. If they drop dead of an overdose, it was all their doing. I won't lose sleep over it and neither should anybody else. Nobody forced the needle in their arms or the powder up their nose. And if unborn children are harmed because of their doped up parents then it is the parents that are to blame, not the person that sold them the drugs. The parents knew what they were doing when they stuck the needle in their arm. Common sense people. Take responsibility for your own actions, as adults.

Every action deserves an affirmation of some type, and the problem with letting heinous crimes and their perpetrators spend life in jail is; there is no contrition, no recompense for the victims--and it’s hard to put a monetary value on the death penalty if you haven’t been in a position to appreciate its worth.

I feel a pop-culture reference to the priceless commercials coming on, but I’ll try and contain my morbid zeal.

So we deep fry a few, we gas, we hang, we behead, inject, or we just pester and berate until…clickity click click double click and a man has himself disemboweled with a horse penis (it’s not as noble or fair as a good old fashioned Seppuku complete with ceremonial dress and dagger, but it gets the job done) and in terms of price, that’s all anyone really wants.

An eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, and what could we offer in lieu for the mandatory pound of flesh? Do we offer, instead, twenty years of social isolation, with time served for good behaviour?

I don’t know, I just don’t…fucking know.

There are good arguments for both sides, and after reading this thread I’m more aware of those ideals and their repercussions, and even more confused of which, if either, is the right path. It is for these reasons I find myself periodically being pulled back to this site—the grey matter here has always churned in the most delightfully and deliberating ways, and it’s good to see that after so many people and so much time things are still continually in flux.

And yet.

Still the same.

Thank you again, gothic net denizens, for challenging my perceptions. This thread has been a most excellent read.

The death penalty isn't logically defendable. It falls under the "Two wrongs make a right" logical fallacy, as has been famously described and subsequently ignored by conservatives everywhere.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind - Mahatma Ghandi

mmmkay, the kids and family members of hard core drug users do suffer, and the responsibility is with the parents,...

Never mind abuse and neglect...

but they do get punished if they are caught. Why should the dealer get a walk?

He supplied the drugs. If he gave a gun to a person and they went out and robbed or killed, he would be guilty of accessory before the fact.

He makes a profit off of human misery. Kids. Parent and family members of drug users. Folks who get mugged/robbed/ect. to pay for the drugs. Hard core drug users don't live in a vaccuum. They hurt innocents.

As far as the death penalty, it's way too biased and racist in its application. It doesn't give the same measure of justice to the poor. Even with ten years worth of appeals, too many are cleared by dna after they are executed.

On the other hand, keeping hard core offenders behind bars is terrible. They mingle with the general population and many victimize one another or teach others how to offend. Free/slave labor not witstanding, (And that's a terrible arguement. Keeping someone in prison isn't free. It costs out the ass. And isn't slavery supposed to be illegal? Immoral? What is this, a slave generating business?) who would want to face a choice like that? Die, or spend the rest of your life in a hostile environment, enslaved and locked away from your family or society?

Given the choice, most would probably chose life. It's punishment, alright.

Is it enough? I dunno. It scares me that so many are convicted without the high priced legal help the rich folks get. If we could be a bit more scientific, I'd feel a lot better about executing someone.

As far as immoral, I can't make that call. But as far as being a deterrant to crime, it may not prevent someone else from breaking the law but the dead guy won't be breaking any laws. Can we say "Repeat Offender"?

In a better world, I'd be for it... but this is the real world, and there are too many flaws.

The problem is so fucking complicated. The alternative, to keep them encarcerated and try for rehabilitation, is a sick joke in many instances. And the number of prisoners mounts daily.

An eye for an eye satisfies some of the victims, but is that a reason to take a life? You can't simplify the issue by quoting Ghandi. Many victims and family members of crime victims suffer for the rest of their lives. Seeing the perpetrator dead provides some of them with closure. Getting all moral when it's not you waking up in the middle of the night and remembering that your kid is dead just isn't good enough.

The only solution I can see is to take each case and judge it on its own merits. With the sheer numbers of cases involved, that just isn't viable. The next best thing is to have it in place so that it can be used if needed, and have an extensive appeals process and legal aid lawyers who will go over each case looking for mistakes.

That's where we fall down. Not enough money is being spent to check for mistakes. And we need to clean up the prisons. Until then, I can't support it. But as for morality, until I'm victimized by someone or until I'm unjustly convicted, I'm riding the fence.

It isn't strictly a moral issue. Too many real lives are involved. Translate that into human suffering and ideals are not enough. Nor do we have the right to make a choice without involving the victims. They have a right to expect closure. Why should the person responsible for their suffering get a walk, while the victims continue to hurt? It's like they are doing life, with no chance for appeal and no time off for good behavior.

As far as the death penalty, in this particular instance, it's way harsh. Accessory doesn't usually carry a death penalty. On the other hand, he went in knowing what would happen if he got caught. Into Singapore. Where they can cane you for littering.

I know it's cynical, but I'd put this guy up for a Darwin Award if he gets executed.