Right to refuse medical treatment
 

I apologize in advance if it seems I'm regurgitating any old threads, but this issue has been weighing heavily on my mind over the last two days, and I felt the need for some input, opinions, etc. Also, I apologize if this is posted in the wrong forum. Not sure if it should go here or in General. At any rate...

I've spent the majority of the last two days in the E.R. with my boyfriend who is/was suffering from an appendicitis.

The topic of my being in his situation came up, again, and once again, I told him what I always tell him, that I never want to undergo any form of invasive medical treatment. It's against my personal beliefs. I've told my family this many times as well. It doesn't matter the severity of the situation, whether it is life-threatening or not. If it requires anything more than a pain pill or antibiotic, I don't want it. But I don't know how far my rights go on this issue, so I'm wondering if anyone here can help shed some light on it, either by legal knowledge (obviously pertaining to the U.S.), or personal experience - self, family, friends, etc. Does anyone know what is required? Do I need to have legal papers drawn up? I am an organ donor, which I'm seriously contemplating changing, however I don't really care what happens once I'm dead, and if some part of me can help someone else live more comfortably, I don't mind. As long as I'm dead first, of course.

Thoughts?

Would that be considered under the same ruling for refusing blood transfusions?

That's a huge thing do decide on though, especially if you wouldnt consider the smallest procedure for something like appencicitis. Any reason why you would refuse, just out of curiosity?

Those are some pretty idiotic beliefs you have there, but if you really have that little respect for yourself and the people who care about you, yes. As a basic rule, you have that right. The exact details depend upon your jurisdiction.

Yes. If you get into a situation where you're unable to express your wishes (for example, because you're unconcious), you run the risk of some person who is not addled with religious delusions doing the sane thing and saving you from yourself. Wouldn't want that now, would we? There are a variety of relevant documents... Do Not Resuscitates, Powers of Attorney, etc. Again, the jursidiction you live in matters.

I suppose if you let me know where you are and whether or not you're a minor (which could make a difference), I would be willing to do some homework on it, but what I say is not legal advice. If you're serious about this, you'll want to talk to an attorney or professional involved in that aspect of health care at some point.

Anyway, your invisible friend probably wouldn't approve of you listening to my advice. Hear no evil and all that.

Refusing any surgical procedure to save your life is not much different than suicide. Only instead of being a selfish act you do alone, you are asking medical professionals sworn to preserve life, to let you die, without good medical reason (such as being terminally ill with cancer).

Hey deviant, long time no see.

As far as I know, you can refuse any treatment except when your immediate health is in jeopardy. This would be like having a bullet removed in the ER or something similar. First off, they're probably not going to wait around for legal paperwork to decide whether or not to operate on you, and even if you say something, they're likely to ignore it because they'll assume you're in shock and not thinking reasonably.

You can refuse any long-term treatment however, such as chemo, and people refuse stuff like that all the time, but make sure you have the paperwork drawn up with a lawyer, along with plans with someone to notify the hospital of your wishes and get them the paperwork.

I have a lot of respect for myself, which is exactly why I'm pursuing this, and anyone who claims to care about me should respect this.

I live in Florida. Terry Schiavo country...
Orange county, to be more precise.

What, exactly, is idiotic about it, may I ask?

I'm not addled with religious delusions. I'm against invasive or intensive medical practice on my body, for any reason. It is the ultimate invasion of privacy, as far as I'm concerned, and has nothing to do with religion. There is a huge difference between personal and religious beliefs.

I understand that. I'm 34.

Yes, I'm looking into this as well. Its difficult getting legal advice from attorneys when you have limited to no funds for consultation fees. So I'm left to do research on my own until I can afford consultation.

I've been reading about living wills. So far from what I understand, you can write it as you wish, as long as it is witnessed by 2 people, at least one of which can't be a spouse or blood relative. I have to be sure of the specifics in wording. Likely, a legal writer would be the best source for this, I'm guessing.

I was reading something this morning that said any doctor that performs surgery against a patient's consent is no different than him attacking you with a knife, and they can be charged with assault. I don't know how valid that is either at this point though.

I don't have any "invisible friends", voices, etc. This has nothing to do with any religious beliefs. I'm an extremely private and modest person. I've been called an idiot for my beliefs on this numerous times, so it doesn't really phase me anymore, unless it's coming from someone like my boyfriend, who should have more respect for me and my personal choices than that. I respected his by doing everything I could possibly do to get him treated as quickly as possible, and was at his side every minute I could be until his surgery, and immediately thereafter. I would expect him to be at my side, should the situation be reversed, and have enough respect for me to honor my decisions.

I've only ever had to refuse treatment once, when I was 19 and had dislocated my ankle. I dealt with the barrage of insults from my family and supposed friends, being called a "fucking idiot" and being told I was acting childish, etc, from everyone around me. The last time I was an actual patient was when I was 17, strapped to a board in an E.R. for 12 hours after a car accident. I wasn't able to get up and walk out then, or I would have.

It sounds like you're just plain scared of doctors. Are you prepared to die a long and painful death? Because that sounds like what you're going for.

Don't get me wrong; having surgery isn't fun for anyone. But why choose pain and possibly death if you can choose -not- to be in pain and live a lot longer? What happened to make you so afraid of doctors?

Edit: I'm curious about something. If the doctors hadn't operated on you after your accident, would you be dead right now? Do you regret that you didn't die then/weren't horribly disfigured for the rest of your life?

On a completely different note, I find it ironic that you chose Dexter, the vigilante, methodical serial killer/Miami police blood splatter expert, as your icon. Very interesting choice indeed.

Hi there. I've been horribly swamped with classes the last few months, so i haven't had much time to post or even read much of anything, beyond the occasional.

My grandmother did this, a few months before she passed away. She had stomach cancer, and had already been through one bout of chemo. It didn't really have any negative side effects, like it does with many, but it didn't help her either, so she refused it.

My other grandmother, however, is still lying in a hospital bed, where she's been for the last 10 years or so, mostly delirious to her surroundings or anyone around her. She watches tv when she's conscious. She barely even recognizes my dad anymore, and still believes my grandfather is there in the room with her, though he's been dead for 5 years. What is the point of this existence, other than to appease the selfishness of everyone around her that wants to keep her alive, and keep pumping money into a corrupt medical system that doesn't give a fuck about the patient, just the size of the check.

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This is just a wild guess, but could it be the cancer that's making her like that rather than the chemo? Or even just plain old alzheimer's?

Besides that, there's a -world- of difference between having an appendix or gall bladder taken out, and having to get chemo. I don't even see how you can relate the two.

So essentially you're just a prude and dont want anyone looking at you or touching you, to make you well and ease long term suffering from anything? You are being unbelievably childish. Yeah, I can absolutely see how its better to die in agony from appendicitis than to have it removed and make a fast recovery, and live pain free for possibly the rest of your life.

I can completely understand people with cancer who have had failed treatment, wanting to die. I appreciate that. I can also understand people with MS or motor neurone disease wanting the right to die too. But if you were THAT determined to die, you would be seeing a lawyer for advice right now.

As a nurse, yes, you have the right to refuse any type of medical treatment out there and if you don't want it, don't let it happen to you.

Oh yeah, also, at your young age, you're just too fucking stupid to live, then. If you were 85 years old and did not want open heart surgery--I'd agree with you one hundred percent. But at your age? You're just being fucking stupid. Please don't clog up our hospital systems if you're ever in a car accident or if someone severs your carotid...go die alone in an alley.

That's pretty harsh, Angelik.

It's the truth, Tam. You have no idea how disgusted I get with non-compliant patients. People come to hospitals for our help--If they don't want it, then don't waste time that could be spent on helping the patients that really need it and go suffer at home. It is so depressing to see someone refuse a treatment that could save their life.

If she wanted to refuse exploratory surgery--Yeah, I really couldn't blame her. Or if she had lung cancer which already spread to her lymph nodes and chemo and radiation would only give her a silver of a survival and she refused I couldn't blame her...But for someone at her age to say that "if it's not an antibiotic or pain pill, I don't want it"...is just plain stupid.

Ah gotcha; I can see how that would be frustrating.

My question is, why do they come to the hospital if they aren't going to accept treatment? [Notwithstanding those kinds who are carried in by loved ones.]

I wish I had an answer for you. Some of them don't like the way the medication makes them feel, some of them don't like their treatment plans because it requires effort on their part, some people are deathly afraid of needles...The list could go on...

No, I just don't trust them. I have no problem with needles or blades of any kind.

There are plenty of ways to alleviate pain and discomfort while nature takes its course, and if it reached a point that medication no longer relieved the pain, I'd end it myself. Hoping, of course, that I'm still physically capable of it. While I'm not too partial to the idea of suicide, I'm not afraid of death either, and wouldn't have too much of a problem taking those necessary final steps.

I don't share the obsession people have with "living a lot longer". I've never really understood that desire. People act as though life is a party that should never end. There are plenty of things I would like to do, and I'm very content with keeping myself occupied while I wait. I have no intention of seeking a means to an end, either, though I completely understand it in other people. However, I'm not going to fight death, or try to prevent it when it comes knocking, and I want to be sure that no one else tries making that decision for me. Ethically speaking, it is no one elses decision to make but mine.

Further, I don't have children, and unless I actually choose to have one, I never will. So that is one factor I don't have to work into this equation, as would the majority of others. If I did have kids, then I'd have a responsibility to them to keep myself alive in a medical situation, at least until they were adults.

Still, there are other factors I have to consider, mostly debts. I would never want to leave any of my family members with my debts (to include over $150K in tuition, for example). So I have to take into account life insurance, and how it would pay out. I'm sure there are legal ramifications regarding that. I have a feeling a life insurance policy would try to deny a claim when they discover medical treatment was refused. Maybe not. Another possible solution is to start some sort of trust that would pay off any debts I might have at the time, or at least the majority of them. Of course I dont have the funds to do anything like that right now, so it is a delima.

again, it's not about fear, or a lack of respect for my own life. I try not to take chances that would result in any bodily injury. I get accused of not "living" my life for doing this as well. It's a double-edged sword, it seems. But there are a lot of responsibilities and things you have to accept when making a decision like this. It's not an easy issue to sort out, and the possible scenarios are as abundant as there are people in the world.

There was no operation involved when I was in that car accident. I had a moderate concussion and a lot of lacerations to the left side of my head from the broken windshield. I was kept immobile due to the concussion. And no, I'm not disfigured from it either. Other than a few barely noticeable scars on the side of my head, there's no sign of it ever happening.

As for Dexter, he's one of my favorite characters. Unfortunately he's only fiction.

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I have never once walked into a hospital or walk-in clinic seeking treatment for anything on my own, and I never would, unless it was my absolute last option, and only then would it be for pain relief.

I think it's a load of shit that if you get some infection that could be deadly, but could also be easily treated by trained Doctors, your boyfriend will have to just watch you die. I mean, honestly. I can understand suicide, but when you don't want to die, but you refuse medical treatment... well FUCK.

I can understand not wanting to live forever or not wanting a breathing tube, but what are you going to do if your appendix bursts a year from now? Die a VERY painful death? You're gonna need a little more than amoxil and a motrin to fix that...

You're going to need a lot of painkiller to stop an inflamed appendix hurting. When I had an appendectomy, when I was admitted to the hospital, the whole right side of my abdomen hurt, including my nuts.

I was aswell, for a long time. I also used to get into a hell of a state about blood tests and I still do about having an IV put in, but I hate them so much I darent move. The faster it's in the better!

My dad is like you, deviant. He refuses to ever take painkillers though too, yet expects everyone to tollerate his shitty offhandedness when he's in pain. He recently had a detatched retina, and considering his job and love of it, surgery was his only option, yet he made my mums and the specialists time a nightmare, whining like a bitch before anything was done. Yet his sight has been saved. My mum had a choice between being blind or having her lenses replaced. She had the surgery, because without it she wouldn't be able to work.

If you suffered the same, are you saying you would rather be a selfish cunt, go blind and be a burden on everyone else, than have a simple procedure that enables you to continue you're life as you are accustomed to it?

I'm glad that, as a nurse, you are able to provide your professional opinion on a an issue like this, with such a professional air in your choice of wording. This is the sort of attitude that disgusts me whenever I speak to anyone in the "medical profession." I wonder, do they actually train you to speak to people this way, or is it a learned skill?

I will never voluntarily allow myself to become your hunk of flesh to experiment on, as though I'm an object instead of an individual.

There are plenty of other options outside of the hospital environment for alternative treatment, for just about any issue or ailment, that do not require surgery. Granted, some are not so great, while others provide more benefit and faster recovery. It just depends on the situation. I'm not alone in my beliefs, I've just never taken the time to really pursue it.

This ordeal with my boyfriend has caused me to seriously evaluate my own feelings and opinions on the issue. I hate the fact that he was sprawled on a table like beef, naked to the world while they cut him open and cut something out of him. I have very deep rooted issues with this, that I can't let go of, and I refuse to allow it to happen to me. Yes I'm pissed at him, and for some reason I feel betrayed, because he allowed them to do this to him, and didn't even object. More importantly, he allowed himself to require this emergency treatment. It has damaged our relationship, but at the same time, I know that he didn't have many choices in the matter, and he doesn't share the same belief. I have not said one word to him about it, or tried to judge him or talk him out of anything. I have no legal right to make any decision for him, nor would I even if he asked me to. When he called me at school on Wednesday and told me he was being sent to the emergency room for a possible appendicitis, I left class and went straight there. I've done everything I could do to make him as comfortable as possible and waited with him for word from the doctor, never once saying anything in objection or opinion to him or anyone that was treating him. He's home now, resting on the couch. I'm trying to get the sheets changed and bedroom cleaned so he has a comfortable bed to sleep in. I'll be sleeping on the couch for the next several days, to his objection.

I can't help how I feel. I've dealt with this my entire life, and I've always thought that as I got older, the concept wouldn't be as big a deal for me, but that's not been the case. In fact, its been the reverse, as I've gotten older, I'm even more against it now than I used to be. I'm just not very educated on all of it, and I really need to start researching alternatives on a serious level.

I came here and raised this subject because, although I don't agree with a lot of people's opinions on this board, there's still a lot of people here with knowledge on several levels that I could benefit from, should they want to share. I didn't bring it up to be ridiculed or insulted for my beliefs, though I know that comes along with it, especially on this forum.

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Can you not be both?
...And isn't that essentially the same logic with which one would conclude that by living in an established state, one becomes an object?
I mean, it's not like the police, mailmen, and firefighters all really want to know you.

Deviant, it's bollocks that you want advice. If you have made your mind up, and made this decision years ago, then you would have gone to see a lawyer by now. You just want someone to approve of your childish idea. If you want to die, there are plenty of ways to do it that wont involve you putting that pressure on professionals who swore to preserve life.

I'm not a 'her', thank you.

and its interesting you should make that point, considering something about explorative surgery was noted in his chart.

Your beliefs are amazingly stupid.

"They've spent well over a decade learning about the human body, and sometimes two more practicing it, but no, they can't be trusted to save my life".

You are an idiot.

Sorry for jumping to conclusions. I'm used to hearing "personal beliefs" as code for "idiotic religious delusions." I'll dig around in the law for as soon as I feel up to it.

When I come back, I'll probably also express some reservations about your thinking on this, but at least it sounds like you are making a conscious decision based on a clear picture of reality. If you really have all the facts at your disposal and you still want to go that way, ultimately, it's up to you.

Tell me, do you eat meat or animal products? If you do, then you're treating the animal as a hunk of flesh and an object.

Either way everyone gets treated like a hunk of flesh after we die.
You know, autopsies and preparing a corpse for burial and shit.
So you get treated like a hunk of flesh while unconscious, or while dead.
In both cases you won't experience being treated like a hunk of flesh, you can only know you were or will be.

Both my grandfathers and my sister's first born, all died in hospitals due to the wonderful care they were provided by the so-called professionals who were supposed to be keeping them alive. My dad's father died from a heart attack while he was in for observation. No one even knew he was dead for several hours, because no one bothered to check on him.

3 months later, my mom's dad drove himself to the hospital for what was supposed to be an out-patient procedure. He was having stints put in his arm for his kidney dialysis. It should have only taken a few hours, but he wound up spending the last 3 weeks of his life there. Heart failure from the anesthesia lead to an emergency bipass - something his heart doctor, who he'd been seeing for a good five years or more before hand, should have been able to detect, but either didn't, or didn't give a shit. From there everything snowballed. Ultimately he died because his organs were basically liquified from the stomach acid that leaked into his abdominal cavity due to a feeding tube they'd placed in him that tore loose. No one knew it tore loose, because they weren't checking. On top of that, the entire time he was in the hospital, no one bothered to change the dialysis fluid that was in his gut, that was supposed to be changed on a daily basis. He spent most of those 3 weeks with that shit still in him.

in October of '01 my sister went to the hospital instead of work because she thought she was going into labor. It was less than a week before her due date. There was no doctor on duty at the time (early saturday morning). The only one willing to talk to her sent her home saying she was just over-reacting. The real issue was that she had some form of toxemia, that for whatever reasons didn't allow her body to respond properly to labor. Her doctor was aware of this, but didn't bother to let her know, and made no significant notes on it in her medical records. The fucker that sent her home wasn't even authorized to do so. The following monday she went back, only to discover that she had been in labor all weekend, and her baby had strangled to death on her umbilical cord. And as if all of this wasn't enough, they forced her to continue with natural birth, lying in a bed for over 20 hours trying to deliver a baby that she knew was dead.

Technology and medical advancement is a wonderful thing. It doesn't mean those using it can be trusted. While these aren't the only reasons I don't like hospitals, they definitely don't help to restore any sort of trust in them.

People need to be more responsible for their bodies, and more aware of what is going on with them. This is why I said before that I'm angry with my boyfriend, and myself really, for allowing this to happen. We could have prevented it, had we been paying more attention.

I do feel like a bit of an ass though, as I was allowing too much of my own stress to affect my thoughts and put myself in a shitty frame of mind. I am bad about over thinking too much.

Why are you all getting so pissy about this?

Hospitals cant cure everyone of everything. It's a shame you feel the way you do.

I lost both grandfathers to cancer, and someone else to something, yet I let that be the reason I would do whatever I could to be able to stay here with my kids. Except dentists. I hate them :D

OK, now compare your sister's dead baby to the number of healthy babies born in the country and try to realize that it's more the fact you got shafted by bad luck, not because every single doctor in the world is disgustingly negligent.

For most Doctors, their job isn't just a job; it's a passion.
Every swing has infinite hope and calculation put into it.

Babies die for all sorts of reasons. It's a sad fact of life. I've been affected by it too btw, I'm not being heartless here. A mother lost her baby by passing on the cold sore virus when she kissed her. People contract cancer and no 2 people's bodies react the same to treatment. 1 will recover and live a long life, the other will die. It's bullshit to say they've had long enough to learn about the human body, to be able to save everyone. Nature works differently, we evolve, we become resistent to medications, and bugs like MRSA become resistent to treatment. I'm sorry, but if you are going to be an idiot and want to die, do people a favour and shoot yourself, but dont miss, or theres a risk some evil do gooder might try and save you from bleeding to death. We cant have that.

I second this.

Are you saying you could have prevented apendicitis?

Nice avatar Al, all class :)

oops, was quoting deviant there btw, not joker . .

I'm a classy mother fucker.

If that ankle had been broken instead of dislocated, it could kill you. It seems strange that you claim to respect your body, but would let it wither away and fester because of a simple broken bone.


There. This is the problem.
You've just proved you have little to no understanding of the way the medical community works. Nearly all surgeries performed are routine, and far from experimental. Those that are experimental are discussed thoroughly with patients and consented to. You seem to be picturing a mad scientist with a pair of scissors in your head, and that incorrect vision, while amusing, will probably cost you your life.

What's more, if doctors were going to just treat you like an object instead of giving you individualized care, why would they communicate with other doctors, your family, and you to get as much information as they could about you so as to give you the best care?


I hate to be so callous, but this really is insane/stupid.
Newborns and the elderly are the weakest of all humans, and death even in the strongest of us is 100% guaranteed.

If you hate hospitals because they couldn't keep your grandfather alive indefinitely...then yeah...I guess you have a point, because no, they can't keep people alive forever.

I heard one time that a hair stylist did a bad job. You should probably boycott them, too.
Also restaurants, because sometimes you get bad food, when you're supposed to get good food.

Ophie, you're the tops.

You're not so bad yourself, hot pants.

Wow you two are really on the ball. I don't really even have to add anything here, except an extra helping of scorn for x-deviant-x

It's good to see someone who gathers all the facts, thinks them all over carefully, and makes the dumbest decision possible.

It reinforces my pleas for logic to be taught in schools.

Personally, I think that refusing medical care is idiotic. Especially if you have something like appendicitis, which will escalate to massive infections (i.e becoming septic) and dying a horrible death.

To each his own, I guess.

There are ways to treat an infected/inflamed appendix without surgery, if it's discovered in time. Some are self healing, as most appendicitices are caused by fecal blockage. Regular bowel movements and a diet high in fiber can go a long way. And if you pay attention to your body, keep yourself as fit and healthy as possible, and stick to a proper diet, you can prevent most illnesses.

The majority of people in this country are pathetic when it comes to taking care of themselves. They want to pay strangers to do it for them and are willing to pop pill after pill into their systems which are nothing but man-made poisons, most of which have a plethora of side-effects that are far more severe than the symptoms they're supposedly meant to treat. Perfect example - I have psoriasis, most likely inherited from my mother whose had it since she was pre-school age. While mine is much milder than hers, and really only affects my elbows and knees, it is still annoying. I saw a commercial just yesterday for a new prescription drug to treat psoriasis. Among the few dozen side-effects it can cause, one of them is tuberculosis. Great! I'll gladly trade my dry, itchy elbows and knees for a debilitating lung disease of which there is no cure for, just so the drug companies can cash in a bit more at my expense.

No thank you. They can keep their poisons.

My own treatment: the beach. Spend a couple hours in the ocean and within a day or two my elbows and knees are smooth as a baby's ass, and it doesn't come back for months. The last time I was at the beach was in late sept/early oct. and the shit still has not returned. It took a few trips before I realized what was happening, and when I asked my mom about it she told me it does the same for her, she just hasn't lived a reasonable distance from a beach in about 30 years.

A friend of mine in TN has severe psoriasis, pretty much from head to toe. When it gets too annoying for him to deal with anymore he takes a trip to some place in NC to a hot spring. He said the last time he went it didn't come back for over 4 years.

I'm not claiming its a cure, or even a significant treatment for everyone, as there are multiple types of psoriasis, each at varying levels of severity. As far as I'm aware, it isn't a life-threatening condition, which definitely means it's not worth pursuing a treatment for it that can result in death. Where is the fucking logic in that?

Any doctor that truly cares about their patients would help that patient explore ALL alternatives before surgery. Mention something like ocean water to a doctor that's trying to sell you a pill and you'll be laughed out of his office. They don't give a fuck about you, they want your money, and they're going to do whatever they can to keep you coming back. There's no money in the cure.

And now, coming back around to my boyfriend and his appendectomy. He now has an 8 inch incision across his abdomen and all of those muscles were cut. No, it did not rupture and there was no logical reason for the doctor to have used that archaic form of surgery that has basically debilitated him for the rest of his life. 3 weeks later it is still draining and he can barely walk. It's only been this week that he's been able to lie down in bed without crying from the pain, and he can't straighten his legs. His pain pills - 5mg of percocet - ran out last week. He made them stretch as far as they could go, as it was only meant to be a 7 day supply. When he asked his doctor for a stronger pain pill he was told that's the strongest they could give him. On his follow-up visit, one week after surgery, his fucktard of a doctor walked in and all he asked was "have you quit smoking yet?" When he said no, the doctor walked out of the room and said he wasn't going to speak to him again until he quit smoking. Didn't even look at him, much less his incision. About 20 minutes later he sent the nurse in to yank out his staples, which she didn't even bother using gloves or sterilizing the incision before-hand.

And fuck you for trying to justify my nieces death by saying babies die every day. Yeah, they do die every day from all sorts of disorders. Is neglect a disorder? SHE WAS SENT HOME, you fucking moron. That is not a natural cause. There was nothing physically wrong with the baby. She fucking strangled to death because some asshole in a hospital either wasn't competent enough, or just didn't want to do his job. $50K in fertility treatment over the course of about 10 years, and the result was a dead baby. Thankfully, that hospital has been barred from delivering anymore children, as there had been a dozen or so other women who went through the same thing within the previous year.

Since then my sister has had two more very healthy girls, and neither of them were planned. She spent 10 years going to doctor after doctor trying to get pregnant, being told repeatedly she'd never have kids naturally, and all it took was for and her husband to change their diet and exercise.

And since no one here has bothered to offer any legitimate advice but instead chose to insert their own derogatory opinions, every one of you can fuck off. This conversation is over.

So you have a problem with 'pills and poisons' and yet think that the doctors are in the wrong because your fucktard of a boyfriend was too much of a useless prick to stop smoking. Yeah ok. Known fact. Smokers heal slower. I dont blame the doctor for walking out. If you have such a problem with hospitals and doctors, maybe you should have practiced what you preach and advised your boyfriend to stop smoking. I hope you get lung cancer from passive smoking, and die a slow painful death. People like you make me fucking sick.

As for your sisters baby, loads of babies die from all sorts of complications. A seemingly healthy pregnancy can end in a still birth because the placenta stops functioning. 1 of my daughters was close to death because she had the cord wrapped round her neck so tightly she was blue. A friends baby had a longer cord and somehow knotted it and the baby died. It happens. Deal with it. Atleast she has 2 healthy children now.

As for anyone offering you 'legitimate advice', whats the point? You are a fucking know it all. You think diet and exercise are the answers to everything and knowingly sit by as your boyfriend slowly kills himself, and then blame a doctor for not giving a shit that he still isnt healing. I'm glad he's suffering. It serves him right. I hate people like you. Think you have the right to slag off everything and everyone until they arent doing something for you. You're a cunt of the worst kind.

Fuck off and die in a dark corner of a sound proof room, so you dont inflict your double standards on anyone else.

I actually agree with a lot of this - a major motivation of the medical industry is, after all, profit, and many doctors WILL recommend expensive medication for pretty much any ailment you can name, without bothering to explore other alternatives.

That said, it's a whole different ballgame when you're talking about something like life-saving surgery after a car-crash. Although I appreciate that you have good reasons for refusing treatment to which there are alternatives, I can't see this as anything other than an irrational decision, and if I were asked for a decision as to whether to override the wishes of someone I knew in this situation, I would not hesitate to to do and suspect that many people in your life will feel the same. For that reason, if you're dead set on this, you should probably contact a lawyer and see about getting some papers drawn up, preventing your family and boyfriend from having you treated against your will.


Why so fucking vicious all the time? Does someone on the internet really inspire so much bile that you wish them lung cancer? I fucking blame the doctor for walking out, because smoking is not illegal and he is obligated to treat someone who does it. Should he refuse to treat a car-crash victim who didn't look both ways before crossing the street, because they contributed to their own condition? If he really did walk out after finding out that, no, someone hasn't yet managed to quit a highly addictive habit, he was being a fucking prick. It's not like medical treatment in the United States is free and the guy's draining resources that could go to some kid with bone cancer.

You want to explore alternative medicine but also say no to pills?
You're dumber than I thought.
What do you think aspirin is?

And not fuck me for bringing up how babies die all the time. Fuck you for thinking that all doctors are failures based on one experience.
Are all gays disgusting because I knew one who'd pay a child to let him suck his cock?

And yes, there are ways to combat illness that aren't invasive. The ocean, regular exercise and a good diet are some of these ways. You're right.
There are illnesses, however, that these things can't cure or prevent. In those cases, it's not wrong, disgusting, or morally objectionable to get surgery.

One last thing--stop saying you just came here looking for advice, because you and everyone else knows that's bullshit.

My point was that he has slagged off mecicine and doctors from the start. Calling medicines poison and bitching about doctors like they are butchers. THEN he gets shitty because a doctor wasnt interested in helping someone who wouldnt help themself. His boyfriend. Who could have stopped smoking and given his body a better chance to heal. It's all very well doing the whole 'the ocean, diet and exercise are better' routine, but its bullshit to then get pissy with doctors when it suits. If he honestly believed his ideas were better than medical procedures and medicines, he wouldn't be breathing in someone elses smoke, he wouldnt be allowing his body to endure that. And he would have made every effort to help his beloved to stop smoking even long enough to get better. If medicines are so evil, then why does he have such a problem with a doctor not giving a shit? Fact is, medicine is the greatest evil to him, UNLESS it's a case of someone not getting treated. His boyfriend smoking and then moaning that he isnt healing after 3 weeks, is no different to a morbidly obese person shovelling cream cakes down their throat, then moaning because a doctor cant operate to staple their stomach because they refuse to stop fucking eating shite and lose enough weight to make the surgery safe.

And my comment about getting lung cancer was more a case of, he thinks medicines so bad but he's classically the sort of person to have these legal papers drawn up, then he'll get something like lung cancer, from passively smoking, and by the time he is in agony and expects medical help, it'll be everyone elses fault he isnt getting treatment, but not his. He'll likely get shitty with doctors going 'you have legal papers preventing us helping you. Theres nothing we can do' and he's got the attitude of someone who would then try to sue hospitals over it.