In Oklahoma, a doctor can now lie to you
 

Oklahoma also has a bill in motion to require women to disclose information about themselves and their abortions and put that information on a public website.

I know that since abortion was legalized in the States again there has been many many many laws to attempt to make it very difficult for women, but I can't imagine how this does not violate women's constitutional rights, or why anyone could defend a doctor not disclosing that your kid is going to die as soon as its born, or be brain dead all its life, just because he's pro life.

And I think with all the attempts to pass insane abortion laws lately, one more and I'm going to make a single thread for all of them.

I know... and it feels like it gets worse and worse every day... either treating women like children who are incapable of making informed decisions for themselves and their family, or treating women like murderers who's depest desire is to kill everything beautiful.. damned anti-choice-pro-coathanger assholes!!

I don't see any reference to anything that says a doctor can lie to you. They have to setup the ultrasound so you can see it. How exactly is that lying?

Seriously, your posts are getting as bad as deadmans - your personal (and usually incorrect) titling is making you seem a bit like a nut job.

I'm all for a womans right to choose. The law to 'force' women to view their own ultrasound does not seem like it really interferes with anyones rights to me.

If you think about it, if a woman could be so easily led to not get an abortion just because she saw the results of an ultrasound, it would seem to me that it wasn't really what she wanted to do in the first place. Had she gone though with it and later in life did get pregnant again and got an ultrasound or was with a friend when they had one done, they probably would freak out and have to enter therapy.

If their decision is based on trying to keep the idea of what they are doing out of their head, then it is probably a decision that needs more thought anyway, for the sake of their own mental stability later in life.

I know a girl who is in that very predicament. She had an abortion when she was young, in her teens. Now she is older, married, and has a kid that turned 3. She sees a therapist because she feels so guilty about her abortion, she thinks she killed her first child and can't seem to get over it.

If viewing your own ultra sound can prevent this sort of thing, I don't see why it is an issue. I also again have no idea why you would accuse doctors of 'lying' as the truth has nothing to do with this issue.

Furthermore, doctors can be barred from practicing medicine much like lawyers can be banned from practicing law if they violate their code of ethics. Lying is a direct violation of that - to insinuate a doctor, any doctor, would do that is like saying a lawyer will rob a bank because some new law says they can. It is just silly.

Read the whole article, there are TWO laws that passed, one about the ultrasound and one in which you now cannot sue a doctor if he withholds that your baby is going to be deformed if he does so to deter you from having an abortion.

I can't be offended by that if you evidently only read the first few sentences of news articles.

Vaginal ultrasounds hurt like fuck, there is no leeway for **** or incest victims who might be opposed to someone sticking something up their vaginas, and really it should be a choice whether to have something stuck up your vagina or not, should it not? And why aren't women capable of making their own choices? Why didn't your friend get it done out of her own free will? And her case is extremely rare, most women who get abortions do not regret it later, and most women who get abortions are mothers already.

A strongly pro life doctor would probably love to get away with not telling parents that there children are deformed or disabled, yes.

First, the law about the being able to sue the doctor if he/she withholds info about your unborn child being deformed if he/she does so to deter you from having an abortion will be extremely difficult to enforce (or the resulting lawsuits will be extremely difficult to win) because you will have to prove intent. That will be very hard to demonstrate in court.

Second, the thought that a woman should consider aborting her unborn child because it may be born deformed is a step on the slippery slope toward positions like choosing to abort an unborn child because it is going to be born with a specific disease, undersized, mixed race or even female. I for one have been horrified to hear those kinds of choices are being made in other parts of the world.

I can understand not being able to handle certain conditions. The financial strain is more than most families can afford and that doesn't even begin to compare to the emotional strain. I think there is something wrong with people who would abort because they don't want a child who is "different", but there are some conditions that are so beyond tragic that an abortion may very well be the best option, and that is a decision that only the parents can make.

There are many decisions we don't allow parents to make. Society and the rule of law intervene on the behalf of children all the time to prevent parents from making bad choices. While the distinction that the child is unborn is relevant, saying that it is a decision only the parents can make is not strictly accurate nor morally defensible. And frankly, I think that accepting whether a couple can afford a child or not as a good reason for choosing an abortion is also on that slippery slope. I know the law now allows that choice, and I don't want to be in the business of reversing any of a woman's right to privacy that Roe v. Wade represents, but I do think these kind of criteria do give one pause for thought.

From the sound of it you just can't sue at all, its meant to protect pro life doctors but you can't sue at all for not being informed of medical problems with the baby.

Its really up to the woman to abort for her own choices, if she doesn't want a child who's going to be born with serious medical problems thats her own choice. There's no reason to judge someone on what to do with their body or how they see fit.

Parents chose to abort rather than have their children suffer, thats true, but thats between them and their doctor and no one else. If their doctor has a problem with their reasons for abortion, they are trained to deal with it and make sure the woman is under no pressure. In China where you're only allowed one child, girls get aborted, but the problem with that is that their reproductive choices are severely limited, you can only have one and since men have far greater privileged there, its no wonder they abort by gender. Its the society itself that devalues female fetuses.

And you know, birth defects are not easy to deal with, and being afraid that the parents will abort because their kid will be born diseased or disabled is still very cruel to the child once its born, they will not be prepared at all to take care of it, and not to mention the shock of discovering it after giving birth. All that grief just because your doctor thought you couldn't be treated like an adult and refused to warn you.

You know, everyone seems to think that "if you allow abortions under these circumstances then women will get abortions on demand and go nuts." Here in Canada there is no limitation on abortion, you can in theory at least get an abortion at any time, but most abortions are still done very early. Infact, only 0.4% of abortions here are after 20 weeks, which is generally around the time when things like gender are found out.

Vaginal ultrasounds aren't performed routinely, and amniocentesis can determine gender well before 20 weeks gestation.

Its being reported that they must use a vaginal ultrasound to get a clearer picture:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...robe-abortion/
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20...Their-Patients

And amniocentesis is usually considered risky before 16 weeks, and isn't common before then at all. Its more common to test for Downs Syndrome and other such problems, no one I know with a pregnancy that was expected to be healthy then got it done at all.

I can't empathize with that at all. Parents feel without ease for a certain deformity of the baby, and latter on even just a benign but undesirable quality, and they are so uncomfortable about it that they cannot imagine raising it; and you want the child to be raised in this type of family?
The only scenario in which this could possibly happen is one in which personal aesthetics trump the loving link between a mother and her child. It's clear that you're a guy by positing such a ridiculous scenario to defend your arbitrary position on when it's right and when it's wrong to have an abortion.
What really IS a slippery slope is saying that if people can abort because they are aware of specific qualities in a baby which they weren't expecting, that they would simply start aborting until they 'get it right.'

Which is why I said how that is pretty insubstantial when compared to the emotional costs.


A) It isn't a child yet and at that stage it is the mother's call. Sure the father, the doctor, and morality should all play a part but that is her call.
B) People shouldn't be blindsided by what comes out of them.

I know how everyone here hates anecdotes but well in this case they are pretty appropriate. I know a woman who trusted her doctor, after all she had no reason not to. There were some complications with her pregnancy she was in and out of the hospital but he assured her that the baby was fine. He knew the stress than the pregnancy was having on her body (after all she did have a preexisting condition that made pregnancy risky) and he didn't tell her everything and she gave birth to a deformed child, that died hours later. At least the law was on her side and she was able to sue him, as his defense that he was "protecting the life of the child" didn't really hold up and in addition to getting enough money to pay for all of those trips to the hospital and all of the therapy she went through (as well as a small funeral for the baby), and of course his medical license was taken away.

If you think that women shouldn't be able to abort because they don't want or can't handle such a child then that is a whole different argument. A doctor should not withhold medical information from a patient and that is what this law protects.

"Well ma'am, your unborn daughter has ten adorable little fingers, ten adorable little toes, and baby blue eyes full of wonder and promise. We were able to detect a heartbeat, some slight movement-- oh, and she asked 'what's an abortion mommy?'"

T_Tthat's sad :(

You know, I was ready to leave this be, because in my last statement I thought I summed up my reservations but also my desire not to impair or impinge on a woman's rights to privacy afforded by Roe v. Wade. But you made the statement in bold above. So let me address that and the assertion that I came to this "arbitrary position" and presented this "ridiculous scenario" because I'm a "guy".

My scenario was not arbitrary (the idea of couples possible choosing to abort because a child might be born disabled was presented in the conversation prior to my remarks.) And to expand and show the relevancy of my position, would the same couple you describe above that cannot imagine raising a child with a deformity feel the same way about raising a child of diminished intelligence? It IS a slippery slope and I'm just saying it's worth considering. I NEVER said I wanted to dictate to anyone when they should or shouldn't choose to have an abortion.

Finally, regarding whether I would want a child raised by that family; it sure would not be ideal. However, I do know many people (both personally and by second-hand knowledge) who are survivors of abusive childhoods at the hands of bad parents who chose to have them, and none of them wish they were never born. I'm sure there are some who have come to that conclusion, but the world is a better place for the thousands and thousands of people who rose above such origins to become better people. So I don't have the same view of this that you do.

Saying that people have the right to abort because they do not feel they can raise a child with a bad deformity or disability does not mean that people with disabilities should never have been born. I know a guy who has a severe mental disability, his mother just sits him at the table, gives him safety scissors and he cuts up catalogs all day. He's in his twenties now, and thats been his whole life. There's a family in the town where I'm from, their parents were first cousins and they all have disabilities, the worst one only left the house since he left high school after his mother died, he must be in his forties or fifties. While I can't say at all that it would have been better that he wasn't born at all, for many parents they would rather not have children than subject them to that sort of thing. I know people who never want to have children because they know they have genetic disorders that will more than likely be carried down, they don't wish they weren't born but they don't wish it on anyone else. Its not a slippery slope keeping in mind that often when people abort because of disabilities they do badly want a baby and probably consider the fetus a person, I have never heard of anyone who did so and not feel sad about it. They aren't types who would abort until they get it right, as Alan said.

Saya, nice job distorting what I said. And naming the worst case scenarios is only pointing out the obvious, easily defended shallow end of the slope. I was talking about the variations of disability and the factors people focus on to make those decisions.

But I'll make you a deal. if you know all humans to be altruistic beings who always try to do the right thing, never abuse power and don't make choices for vain or selfish reasons, then I'll agree it's not a slippery slope and isn't worth considering.

I may ask if I can come live where you do, because you know a different breed of people than I'm familiar with, but I'll agree with you.

And again, I'm not arguing to change anything, or to take away anyone's rights. I'm just saying these are the kind of things I contemplate when I think about this.

I didn't distort, you implied through "no disabled people I know wish they were never born" that that was the stance of people who abort because of disability or disease. Alright, it is legal for a woman to abort for reasons like the baby will be missing a pinky, even in the states, provided she does it before a certain time. How many cases of this have you heard?

How are parents who are deciding what is in the best interest for their families selfish or vain? What proof do you have that it is a slippery slope, that women would abort without a second thought if their child was missing half a finger? And I'm sorry, you don't have any idea how hard it is to raise a disabled child. Its easy to judge when you'll never be pregnant knowing that your child will have a very difficult life if you chose to go through with the pregnancy, to carry to term all those months knowing that you won't be able to raise it, and have people judge you for deciding you don't want to do that to a child. It may make you squeamish to think that women are getting abortions for reasons that you deem selfish, but by arguing that its vain and selfish and wrong for women to do so even though you don't really want to take any rights away is just painful to hear.

He is right, and your rant above furthers his point and mine.

It is a child we are talking about. If you don't want a child, do not get pregnant. If you do, then take at least some responsibility. Saying oh, well I am not equipped for this because tests show he might have some special needs and I don't want to deal with that, so get rid of it - is not acceptable in a civilized society.

IF a woman chooses to have an abortion it should be on better grounds than 'well that one is not perfect, lets try again'.

I mean, getting rid of a fetus merely because you don't want it to impose on your persona life, or your private home time, or do not want to invest any of your own money in special schools or classes is nothing more than selfish.

And again, this has nothing about doctors lying. Doctors are often wrong. Thousands die every year because of misdiagnoses - not because the doctors intentionally lied to anyone, nor did their lack of training cause the death - just because thy are human and like everyone else make mistakes. To make that a crime is to say it is criminal to be imperfect.

Besides, if a doctor did act in an egregious violation of his own ethics it would be a crime even with this law in place.

Finally, your assertion that 'Its being reported that they must use a vaginal ultrasound to get a clearer picture' is just untrue. I have never seen a doctor refuse a patient a medical procedure, one that would be needed, one that is not some test procedure but a standard procedure that is preformed hundreds if not thousands of times a day across America and the rest of the world merely because they are trying to force women to use the results of only one test. Faux news and the other right-wing rag 'DailyKAOS' are not the best sources to cite in my book, plus it goes against common sense.

If a pregnant woman went into a doctors office and asked for an amniocentesis and it was denied, then that could be a lawsuit there. Doctors perform them at all stages of pregnancy if there is a known history of defects OR the woman chooses. To argue the procedure wouldn't be done because faux news says so is daft.

Get fucked, you reactionary idiot.

So you support aborting a child because their wheelchair clashes with your handbag?

You're a real winner.

Who owns a woman's body?

I want to point out that Saya did overreact to me, that I wasn't saying all parents who choose to abort are selfish, etc ... I was just asking if she believed they ALL did it for selfless, altruistic reasons contrary to what I know to be human nature ... which means in any group of people there ARE going to be some people who make bad choices and there ARE going to be some people who are selfish and irresponsible. I wasn't even talking about how many ... it might be in this particular area a very small percentage, because I do believe most people do give it great consideration before making such a decision.

I think you are over-sensitized to this issue for having had too many battles over it trying to protect your rights, which I am not contesting.

I also wasn't saying anything like "If you don't want a child, do not get pregnant." So Sternn, when you make a statement supporting my position, please do not misrepresent what I am saying by adding your own differing opinion on to your supporting statement. I do not agree with you on this.

Obviously the goal is for abortions to not need to be legal or illegal, because in an ideal world, birth control would work 100% of the time.

Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you, but it seems you're envisioning women who get abortions as irresponsible women who have sex without thought or self-control.

What about chicks who have one partner, take doctor prescribed birth control, AND use condoms--and still get pregnant. It's rare, of course, but it's completely within the realm of possibility.

Of course, there is also the question of **** victims.

How can it be selfish and irresponsible to not to choose to have a baby? We can't judge this. Unlike what Sternn is saying (and I know you don't agree with him, but just bear with me, I'm not going to address his full post so I'm just going to address two points he made in my answer to you), its is NOT a child we are talking about, and it is perfectly acceptable in civilized society (as far as I know Canada is pretty fucking civilized) to abort for whatever reasons you will. Thing is, women don't have to give reasons, its their bodies and the rest of their lives that they are having to worry about. I do think that the anti-choice movement likes to paint women as sluts who will abort just to avoid stretch marks, and that does make even pro choice people wonder. Honestly I used to be pro-life, and even when I changed my mind and became pro-choice I thought I would never be able to have an abortion, and I would've been quick to judge anyone who did it for reasons I didn't agree with.

Thing is, aborting so you can still have money to give your existing children their needs (and most women who abort are already mothers), aborting because you are not in a stable relationship or fear your partner will leave you and cannot raise a child on your own, or wanting to go to college and not have to live in poverty the rest of your life, or being unable to care for a disabled child, or simply never want to have children are not selfish reasons. Selfish against what? Who's business is it to judge on what they are not going to have to deal with, once the baby is born? Its going to affect the mother for the rest of her life if she chooses to carry, and change it dramatically and utterly. How is it selfish to not want that change?

I am not a supporter of the anti-choice (or pro-life as they would have the rhetoric go) movement, nor would I have ever chosen the word slut, but since you bring it up ... there probably has been a woman or two who aborted a fetus so she didn't have to have stretch marks. I say probably because I anticipate that this would fall in line with the broad range of expected human behavior. Unlike the anti-choice movement, I don't see that as a reason to campaign against a right that most women use with great responsibility. But I also think it is a thing that grown adults can consider and discuss without throwing insults or seeing it as a threat.

But I can discuss reasons for having an abortion that I might not agree with and speculate upon people with less than noble motivations, because that is my first amendment right.

The rest of your statements have been full of examples I would not disagree with, but again you keep bringing up the easily defensible examples and I was not intending to post an attack.

Its certainly your right to say that, but its also my right to call you out on it. And it wasn't all "easily defensible," since I brought up financial difficulties, which you previously said was on that "slippery slope"

Using abortion irresponsibly would be having unprotected sex like crazy and aborting every single time instead of using birth control, since that would do a number on your body. Does anyone out there do that? Maybe, although it would make little sense given how birth control is a lot easier and cheaper, her doctor must interfere at one point and say something about it. Aborting because you are not able to raise a child with a disability or you cannot afford one is pretty responsible, given how many disabled children are abused by parents, teachers and caregivers or how many children suffer in poverty, and how the mother might have a chance to change her financial situation if she does abort, making life easier for her future children.

When I say there is a slope, it means there is a shallow end and a deep end. So, in the example of talking about a couple aborting because money is a factor, it becomes different points on that slope depending on their income and what other things might factor into the cost of having that child. If a couple has a six figure income, then making the choice to abort because of the cost puts them on a different place on the slope than a couple that is struggling to get by.

Also, disability varies by degrees. Aborting a child who is very mildly disabled is closer to the deep end of the slope than aborting a severely deformed child.

You keep insisting on only mentioning the worst case scenarios, like if a child is very disabled or a couple is very poor. I'm just saying, human nature being what it is, there are some other possibilities. And I do believe that there are people who make those choices for other reasons.

I'm thinking you don't understand the phrase "slippery slope". By saying its a slippery slope from an impoverished family aborting to a couple aborting just because they want to buy a fifth car, what you're implying is that aborting for dire financial reasons will lead to people getting abortions for shits and giggles, so aborting for good reasons will inevitably lead to horrific results. Like "We shouldn't allow gay marriage, because then people will be having sex with ducks" is a slippery slope argument.

In Europe, we get paid by the government if we have children. In Ireland, you get money every month (a few hundred euro) no matter what tax bracket you are in to support the child (although they do reduce the amount if you make over like €70,000 a year).

If the child goes to college, which is also paid for by the government, your benefits continue until they finish school.

I wonder how many potential children have been aborted because there is not a similar system like this in America?

You know Saya, your right. My mistake was using the term "slippery slope", and I should have know better. The word slippery does mean that the decisions would lead to more people doing the same or worse and I didn't mean that. It was my mistake for using an inaccurate term. I also should have been sensitive to the emotional power of that term, since it has been used by pro-life advocates in the very divisive battle over abortion rights, and I had no intention of making a connection to that political position.

I'm just saying that there is a wide range of human behavior, and some people choose to abort for less honorable reasons. You've never denied it when I suggested that I believed a few women probably have aborted to avoid stretch marks and that I believe that a few couples have aborted because of the cost even though they make six figure incomes. I'm not saying those people making those choices will necessarily lead to more people making those choices ... just that I am certain that there are a few who behave that way.

Saying so does not in and of itself attack or weaken the right of women to choose to have an abortion any more than pointing out that some people drive drunk should be an attack or weaken the right of people to drive a car. It's just a byproduct of having cars and human nature.

Sternn, I'm having a hard time believing any American thought that through and decided to have an abortion based on that thinking. And by the way, in America, we have Welfare and WIC and other programs, which DO pay you if you have children and have little or no income. So we do have a program like that here. I know you'll want to come back and argue the details of the programs that exist here in America (which I am not an expert on and which are really not germane to the topic at hand), but the programs do exist.

You don't think people abort because they can't afford to raise a child?

That was disingenuous and you know it. I was referring to making the decision based on comparing the policies and programs of different countries against the policies and programs of the United States. That is different than just making the decision based on money, which I've already acknowledged does happen.

Sternn wasn't implying that people think "The United States won't support me as much as a European government would. Well, time to abort my child based on that premise!" He was comparing the policies of different countries to the US because government spending on single mothers and struggling families helps to reduce the need for abortions.

Fair enough.

Who owns a woman's body?

Depends on who paid her for the hour

*rim-shot* :)

I wonder how many people have kids just for the money.

Most of the Muslims and black people i think do have kids for the money.

I can vouch for this from personal experience. One lady who I used to know through acting school claimed to have done this twice and claimed that "Girls only feel the need to use protection after a scare". Needless to say her views were off-center on most topics.

Also what can be worse is that some can claim that they will use abortion as an excuse to do stupid things while pregnant. One particular case I knew was when a girl was pregnant with her second child, set her mind on an abortion so she drank, smoked, used all the drugs under the sun and then decided to keep the child. I can only imagine the future heath problems ahead for such a child.

These being said, they aren't what I would believe to be often.

No, you idiot. They do it so they can take over Europe with superior numbers.

roflmao!!!!

No,you shit head cunt they don't.
They are not intelligent enough to attempt in doing so.
Give it a rest moron .

shutuptroll!shutuptroll!shutuptroll!shutuptroll!

Bring back the reccomendation system! Ben deserves a dozen or so +'s.

Actually, if you're honest, you'll admit you probably do from time to time. Rightly so, I might add.

Heh heh... cock-and-balls..