15 dead as Israel boards Gaza-bound ships
 

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0531/mideast.html

http://tinyurl.com/2vsltqf

A couple of notable people were on those ships. No word yet if they were killed or injured. As the second article points out - 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire of Northern Ireland, European legislators and Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein.

Also on the boat were many EU Parliament members from Ireland, Belgium, Germany, and a few other countries, some top U.N. officials, and even members of the israeli parliament who are opposed to the blockade.

I guess we wait as the details trickle out to see who are among the dead.

It just shows that israel is willing to open fire on unarmed civilians, even visiting heads of state, without provocation.

Hey, they're even more paranoid than deadman. I doubted that was even possible.

Beat me to it. The Chuckle Brothers were aboard. If anything has happened to them I will flip a shit.

Well, there will be much tongue wagging about this, and perhaps even a little saber rattling. But will the countries that have long called themselves allies to Israel as the Israelis have gradually become more intolerant and militant (!) do anything of substance to register their horror at this further outrage? I doubt it.

The U.S. won't do anything because the Jewish Lobby is too powerful, and I recall reading in Tip O'Neil's autobiography "Man of the House" that the Jewish Lobby was something like the third most powerful lobby in Washington D.C.

Do we have any details about what actually transpired, leading up to the shooting?

Bring forth the details.

Not so unarmed civilians, it seems. Most people have seen the video footage put forward by the protesters that shows the aftermath of the boarding of the Mavi Marmara, with civilians in various states of injury receiving medical treatment. But here are two videos released by the Israeli Navy that purport to show the boarding in progress. The first is an overview, while the second is more closeup side view shot from a nearby ship.

Demonstrators Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers Attempting to Board Ship

Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers

The Israelis allege that the protesters escalated the violence first, using wooden clubs, pipes, knives and other weapons to attack the boarding Israeli soldiers. I first saw this footage on MSNBC, and it clearly does show protesters clubbing the soldiers and throwing one overboard. One could guess this footage might be fake, but on the face of it this seems unlikely.

The debate will continue and it will probably remain a "who started it" debate, but in my mind it is not so clear cut now. Israel did have a right to board that boat.

And if I was in the war room of the protesters, brainstorming on what could be done to break the Israeli stranglehold on the port of Gaza, this is a plan I might propose ... a suicide mission with some willing martyrs to make the world turn on Israel.

The big picture question though is this: Is the Israeli blockade of Gaza in their own self-interest? The blockade has been in place for over 3 years, and what has it created? Now, instead of having a region of hostile intent on their border, they have a region on their border with one of the densest populations of people living in some of the worst poverty conditions on the planet. Is there any way that this generates anything other than further anger and animosity towards Israel?

Trouble is, short scenes like this could have been shot at any point during the action, and don't show us how the fighting began.

Frankly, I find the blockade absolutely sickening. Israel has long since lost any moral high ground they could once have claimed through their actions towards civilians since 2006 alone, and it's only going to get worse until the international community grows a pair and judges them by the same standards it applies to other first world countries. There's right and wrong on both sides, but Middle Eastern animosity could be quelled a hell of a lot if Israel cut down blatant human rights violations and war crimes of the kind which would not be tolerated or treated with insulting apologism if they came from anywhere else in the first world.

Yuli Edelstein, Isreali Minister of Public Affairs, was interviewed on Morning Joe on MSNBC this morning. I expected everything he said to be pro-Israel propaganda. But two things he mentioned bear looking into.

First, he said that the Israeli soldiers peacefully commandeered 5 out of the 6 flotilla ships without incident. On those 5 ships no one was hurt, no weapons were fired, the takeover and inspection of the ship went exactly as planned. But on the 6th ship the soldiers were met with aggressive hostility from protesters bearing baseball bats, axes and knives.

And second, he said that Israel spoke with the government of Turkey (both publicly and privately) to dissuade the protesters from this venture before it set off, and Egypt even volunteered to be a middle man to move the humanitarian aid to Gaza directly through Israel to avoid incident. However, the protesters stated publicly that their aim was to 1) go to Gaza and 2) break the blockade. So the flotilla organizers weren't interested in bringing aid to Gaza, they were interested in breaking the siege.

As I said, that could all be propaganda, but it seems like those two statements could be investigated and verified.

I watched the news coverage on CBS and NBC for the past two days. It's no wonder Ben and other Americans have the view they do of the incident. It was so one sided, slanted, and bias there is no other opinion that you could get from it.

I am encoding the Irish news today and uploading it to YouTube. I will post a link here. It has many more details, accounts from the people there first hand, and lots of other pertinent information the American news is omitting. I will follow up after that post with a more detailed list of what is being censored in America, but to watch the news here in Europe and what they are saying in America is almost like watching two totally different incidents.

I'm betting if Americans actually saw what happened and had the full facts that their opinion would not be so close to what you are saying there Ben, which seems to be the opinion of many Americans right now.

More to come...

Actually Sternn, what position is it you think I've taken here?

I think you've severely misread me. Or, as it seems like you do with most people you respond to here, you've only read parts of my post.

Do you have ADD or ADHD?

Because you shouldn't post such long posts if you're not willing to read other people's posts completely before you respond to them.

Alright, let me clarify four points with you.

1) In less than 24 hours the Israeli footage of the incident on youtube had received over one million views. That's not an American statistic, that's a worldwide statistic.

2) I scan Fox news on occasion for perspective, frequently check out BBC News, ABC News and other sources but enjoy the reporting on a couple of MSNBC programs the most ("Morning Joe" and "The Rachel Maddow Show") because I'm a U.S. political junkie. And based on what I've seen on those programs most Americans have taken a knee-jerk anti-Israeli view. And in light of the headlines that people were killed, that is understandable.

So the American public reaction in general to the Israeli assualt on the protesters at this point is horror and outrage, focused on the Isrealis.

How is that different than the initial reaction of the peoples and governments of other countries?

3) If you misunderstood me, I was just saying that it may not have been as one sided as you portrayed, and there needs to be an investigation before we muster our moral outrage. There are a lot of questions that need to be asked. Did the protesters have baseball bats and some other weapons that are alleged? Is there any reasonable explanation for why you would have baseball bats on a boat that is certain to be inspected by the Israelis looking for weapons? Why did the Israelis use live ammo? Was the protesters' aim to incite violence in order to curry worldwide political pressure on Israel as the protesters prior public statements seem to suggest is possible? A lot of questions need to be asked. That's what I'm saying.

I also made the point early on that the blockade of Gaza makes no sense, including the fact that it does not even serve Israel's own self-interests in the long run. Did you miss that?

4) Before you lecture me about where I'm getting my facts from and suggest your going to be able to provide us with reporting from a more reliable source, you might check your sources.

* You claimed the Israelis opened fire on unarmed civilians. Regardless of what events transpired on that boat, it's clear the passengers were not unarmed.

* The news report you cited claimed 15 people had died. Every source I'm seeing is reporting the number of dead is 9.

So I'm wondering if YOU have the full facts. Maybe if you had all the facts, your opinion might be just a subtle bit different. Oh wait, I forgot ... you're automatically predisposed to be anti-Israel in all things, aren't you?

I gotta side with Ben here Sternn. Nowhere in this thread has anyone had a knee-jerk, pro-Israel reaction. What you're seeing is people wanting more facts about the incident before they make up their minds.

As you have said, news can be highly slanted, and what you post here is no exception. (This is why I've referred to some of it as radical left-wing propaganda on occasion.)

Wanting to have a cool, logical outlook on an emotionally and politically charged situation is no vice.

Got em online now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe8GpFb-XgQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9jAlw4wl5c

Sternn, I've watched them both. First, there wasn't anything I hadn't seen in the reporting I've seen from good sources here, but your reporting was missing some critical information, such as the fact that the flotilla was partially funded and supported by IHH, a Turkish organization which the CIA and international research organizations have linked to Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations, that has been particularly militant in it's opposition to Israel (they have called for armed terrorism against Israel.)

Also, you have a lot of nerve criticizing the U.S. reporting as being biased and slanted and then putting those two clips up as if they are examples of neutral and balanced reporting. The first one focused nearly half it's time on showing protesters around the globe and various government officials making pronouncements of condemnation before they have all the facts. And the report did have a bias of it's own (it's almost impossible to find any major network reporting without some kind of bias.)

And the second clip was a reporter who already had his mind made up about the facts, was repeatedly badgering the Ambassador with repeat questions because the Ambassador's answers didn't fit the reporters premise and was naive in his continued assertions that since the boats were solely going to Gaza for humanitarian purposes the Israelis had no business boarding those ships. That wasn't an interview ... that was an editorial!

Watch this for a little more balance and a nuanced inspection of some facts that are available so far that you might not have learned from your Irish television:

Israeli Flotilla Raid Controversy (VIDEO) - featuring Fred Kemp, President of The Atlantic Council and Michael Oren, Isreali Ambassador to the U.S. on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" program.

Also, one other minor note: U.S. Secretary of State Clinton made a statement that "the U.S. supports the UN's condemnation of the Israeli Raid." Based on history and the politics of the region, I wouldn't expect any stronger reaction from the U.S. government than that at this time.

As I've said earlier in this thread, there needs to be further investigation.

Jeez - every time I think Sternn and I could do that comic book hero dark alliance thing, he goes and pulls this crap.

Dude, you make agreeing with you even in principle embarrassing.

Another one - just got it done...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcjhQ366rGQ

Tomorrow is the big day - tis when the Irish ship is going through!

The CIA links everyone to terrorism. You are talking to a man who was pulled off a plane by men in black and was almost renditioned. I work with many groups, and meet every year with members from Hamas, ETA, and other organisations that are considered 'terrorist'. I worked to bring men who were held in Gitmo for years to Ireland to speak and tell their side of events and what really happens there. The term 'terrorist' is bandied around by Americans these days so much it has lost all meaning. If you Google the word you will find page after page accusing Obama of being a 'terrorist' or having 'terrorist' ties. To use that as any justification to attack unarmed civilians, including women and children, is farcical, unless your the kind of person who supports that sort of jackboot thug action.


I agree there should be an investigation as well, but lets look at the facts on the ground - the people on the boat were not just a bunch of Arab 'terrorists' as the American media has suggested. They included people from 35 countries, 8 from Ireland, members of various EU parliaments, the Israeli parliament, Nobel Laurettes, U.N. Human Rights workers, and famous writers. They also had BBC and Al Jezerra reporters and camera crews on board.

So far israel has confiscated all of their gear and had a complete media blackout. Last night the first Irish who were on the ship came home and gave more details on what happened. They are supposed to give a press release later today with even more details.

The ship in question was loaded with donations from Ireland. Unlike American news, the Irish news has followed this story for weeks before it happened. We watched as members of the Dáil (our Congress) sat dockside with that very ship as they loaded the humanitarian goods. We watched it leave Cyprus live on the news here. Our Taoiseach (President) Brian Cowan was on the news talking of this humanitarian aid that was sent with full support of Ireland, the EU, the U.N., and many other EU countries specifically.

U.N. Inspectors went over the ship before it left, along with other human rights groups to make sure there would be nothing that would cause an incident.

It's the back story which we have that ye never got. I'm betting none of ye even heard of the flotilla until you heard about the aftermath. Here, it was a national media event for weeks prior, as it was in many other European nations.

To see it attacked, along with the humanitarian activists we saw and heard interviewed for weeks prior is an outrage to the whole EU who backed this mission.

More importantly, what many are also missing, is the main point of the mission - the people of Gaza. 1.5 Million people are living in rubble with little or no food, no electricity, no running water. 750 thousand of those people are under the age of 16. Of the other 750 thousand, roughly half are women. We have seen the videos from the BBC and Al Jezzera of these appaling conditions, the effects of the 'blockade'.

The U.N. has repeatedly called this blockade illegal and a human rights violation. On top of that, it is 'collective punishment', which is illegal under the Geneva Convention. The israeli government claims they have the right to block all aid coming in to punish Hamas, but sure, they are willing to punish millions of women and children who have nothing to do with any political parties just to prove a point. This is unaceptable and has been for YEARS since the practice began.

If you were to implement that sort of policy in your own area, how would it work out? Say for example in city you live -during local elections a party was put in power by democratic vote that the state government did not like. If they then sealed the borders of your city and told everyone until that party was to step down there would be no resources or aid, is that not the text book definition of tyranny? To follow up on this by starving everyone in your city, cutting off electricity, cutting off running water until that party stepped down, is that not just evil?

How exactly is it the fault of the 750,000 children there? The israelis argue that they have to punish all of those children because they can't allow Hamas to take power. But what if bush had cut off water, electricity and banned medical aid coming into California because they did not elect a republican governor? Would the people really stand for that?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/ga...e-the-children

You can't collectively punish an entire area because you do not like the politics of a small group. You can't punish women and children who have no say in the matter to begin with. You can't blame the victim in this case either saying they should do more to remove the people in power, especially in a culture where women and children have little to no say.

I'm all for an investigation, but lets not lose sight of what has already transpired.

[quote=CptSternn;620475
U.N. Inspectors went over the ship before it left, along with other human rights groups to make sure there would be nothing that would cause an incident.
[/QUOTE]

This is the most revealing of Israel's true attitude towards the flotilla: Some of you may recall Israel spies being caught in the U.S. and then being released with a slap on the wrist. Why didn't Israel send spies to inspect and join the flotilla? Or better still why not just publicly inspect the flotilla before it left as well? Common sense says that an ounce of pre-launch prevention is better than mid-water cure. Israel could have avoided the bad publicity and world condemnation by inspecting and then escorting the flotilla, but no, they have to get all macho and wait to confront the flotilla just before it lands and show what a bad ass they are by dropping from helicopters.

I used to support Israel but this is over the fucking top.

My eyes just bled. T'was great spending half an hour in this thread.

It took you half an hour to read that? Shit.

I was absorbing every detail of it. I was doing yoga at the same time. Nice eh?? You should try that sometimes.

Hamas and IHH ARE terrorist organizations. IHH has publicly endorsed violent military action against Israel. Hamas is at war with Israel and has a stated goal to end Israel's existence.

The question of whether the protesters on the boat the violence erupted on were innocent and unarmed is still in question. The question of whether the violence was provoked is fair to ask.

There's no doubt based the reporting I've seen that the cargo on that ship was all legitimate humanitarian aid. That's never been in question. And the organizers of that mission had to know that the ship would be boarded by the Israelis as every other ship that has tried to broach the blockade had been, so it was in their interest to make sure the cargo was innocent. But this wasn't the only way to get aid into Gaza. Egypt offered to move it in across their border - that offer was refused. Ergo, the main intent of this mission was not the bring to aid to Gaza but to break the blockade.

If the Israeli's were as duplicitous as you seem to indicate, they would have come forward and claimed that there were weaponry in the cargo. The Isreali's have done no such thing.

So the cargo was never in question or debated here ... but the intent of some people on board that sixth boat is in question.

I've said several times that the blockade is not even in Israel's own self-interest in the long run. And the humanitarian impact on the people of Gaza is heart wrenching. But the fact that the people of Gaza elected Hamas, an organization whose stated goal is the end of Israel as a nation-state, to be the democratically elected representative government of the people there means the citizens do have some level of indirect responsibility for the situation they find themselves in. The UN's not wrong, but the people of Gaza are not strictly speaking all innocent.

It's not just a party the Israeli's don't like. If the citizens of my city voted to install a local government whose stated aim was to overthrow the state or Federal government by any means necessary, including violence ... I'd expect the National Guard to be surrounding the city the next day. That would not be evil ... that would be a sane reaction.

You and I disagree about whether Hamas is a terrorist organization. I ask if Hamas worries about women and children when they launch missiles at Israel. So there's no point in us debating this. Let the investigation proceed.

I agree the deaths were tragic and unnecessary. I think the Israelis were uncharacteristically ill-prepared for whatever happened when they landed on that boat, so they definitely share some responsibility for what happened, and they may be fully responsible. But the question still remains ... were they met by a pre-planned attack designed to provoke a violent response?

Finally, Jon Stewart showed a bunch of the international protest footage on The Daily Show last night. He said. "Anti-Israel protests in countries around the world, anti-Israel signage, spitting on and burning of Israeli flags ... must be Tuesday."

On the other hand, if Israel continues to resist allowing an international probe into the Gaza flotilla raid, I'm going to have a problem with that.

Food for thought:

SAVING ISRAEL FROM ITSELF

Israel under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu seems locked in a self-defeating dynamic in which it feels misunderstood and gives up on international opinion. It lashes out with force in ways that undermine its own interests. It is on a path that could eventually be catastrophic. - Nicholas Kristof, The New Your Times, June 3, 2010

American, 19, Among Gaza Flotilla Dead

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/ameri...0814848&page=2

I saw that a day before you posted it. I bet you thought that would somehow tug on the American heart-strings and make us all curse the Israelis.

We still don't know everything that happened on that boat, and you have yet to acknowledge that simple fact. You also keep ignoring the proven fact that the primary mission of that flotilla was not to be peace-loving and humanitarian, but to BREAK the blockade. That's also the mission of the next boat that is headed to Gaza now.

And I don't hold one person's life to have more value that another solely on the basis of what nation or geographic location he or she is from.

It was a humanitarian effort as well, I'll try to find the pictures of the cargo again but it composed of toys, wheelchairs, medicine and building materials to fix Gaza's fucked infrastructure. It was also wanting to break the blockade but I don't see how thats a bad thing seeing how utterly fucked up the blockade is.

Not to say that it wasn't wrong of the passengers to attack the Israelis if thats what happened, but really the blockade shouldn't be there in the first place.

That is a fair question for debate, and I've already asked it several times in this thread. Also, I've made it a point to state clearly that the cargo isn't in question ... just the motives of this mission. Because that cargo could have been moved through the Egypt border without the confrontation.

And just as I've said the blockade isn't even in Israel's best interests in the long term, the protesters approach to trying to end the blockade is not the best way to attack this problem.

The Egyptian border hasn't been an easy way in either, its only after the flotilla tried to break through that they are trying to keep the border open for a while.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1592974/

The blockade puts Israel in a catch 22 situation. To all of you bleeding heart liberals... IT IS THE GOAL OF HAMAS TO WIPE OUT ISRAEL! Open your fucking eyes. Every action that Israel takes either costs them lives or political cred. THAT IS HOW TERRORISM WORKS. How many terrorists acts is it going to take for you people to NOTICE that Israel's problem is not a formal one? This is NOT a formal war for them.

What's the score? Do you guys understand the elevation of force? The blockade is there for a reason. Those soldiers boarded that boat in order to inspect its cargo. When they got on it, the passengers were brandishing weapons of various amounts of lethality from bats to fucking axes and knives. What the FUCK do you people expect the Israeli soldiers to do? Stand there and get the shit stabbed out of them while they inspected the cargo? No, you don't have an answer. You're just going to jump the gun and say Israel is being an asshole because innocent little children are being starved to death. Well guess what? War fucking sucks. It's ugly, it's sick, and it doesn't CARE about the casualties. You CAN NOT BLAME ISRAEL for defending themselves from a political group who OPENLY says they intend on wiping them out. It's simple. Remove a TERRORISTIC group from power that INTENDS to destroy Israel or suffer the consequences of war. You and I should expect nothing less from any other nation trying to protect its people.

You know what's REALLY fucking sad about this? I'm willing to bet that the people of Gaza didn't put Hamas in power. I'm willing to bet that the vote to put them there was rigged. If it WASN'T rigged then guess WHAT people? They're a part of their own problem. It wasn't just their government that's picked a fight, they may have honestly and fairly voted these people into office. So the people picked the fight as well.

The only thing this blockade has done was protect Israel's interests in the short term and made them look like an asshole. But what other options do you guys think Israel has? Stand down? Go ahead and send a select few of their people to satiate the blood lust of Hamas and call it all fair and square? Please. Think about it folks, these people, both sides, are on some level 100s of years behind culturally.

Bill Mahre said it best. Western civilization is better. That's just another thing to think about.

Let me ask you guys a question... If Israel categorically backed off... if they said, "Fuck it. No more. We're just going to leave you alone if you leave us alone." Do you REALLY trust Hamas to be so benevolent and humane?

Actually, if I were in Israel's shoes, I'd be that bold. I would totally cut all ties with Hamas and what's going on there. I'd totally back off, let my guard totally down. You know, because Hamas would NEVER do anything to hurt Israel. Amirite? Then, once another terrorist attack happens again... What then? Full scale invasion? Total annihilation in Gaza? Guys. This isn't a uniformed struggle. This is at worst, a grassroots cultural war. Terrorism doesn't NEED state funding. Terrorism doesn't NEED lots of money in order to operate and to kill people. All terrorism needs is one person with the means of killing many people with the ideal of political strong arm motives. Terrorism is crime, it is politically motivated, and culturally motivated.

I'm not saying that Israel is a victim. I'm not saying they're innocent. But what I am saying is that you can't blame them for some of the actions they have done. Israel is certainly no push over and they're certainly not innocent victims. But neither are their enemies. Both sides are as equally deadly and brutal.

Trust me, if there WAS a right wing asshole on here saying that Israel is a total sweetheart innocent cake, I'd be just as argumentative with them.

Short version: Clearly, that boat was trolling Israel.

What if Israel had sent that "Inspection" crew out at broad daylight?

Why didn't they announce in broad daylight that they would need to inspect the cargo to make sure everything was on the up and up before it was allowed through to unload at port?

Why the cloak and dagger treatment on a civilian vessel anchored in international waters?

There weren't any hostile actions (From what I've seen of the video footage) until the "Inspection" Crew tried to force their way on board via helicopter insertion.

Deadman... you're an idiot. Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about.

Boarding that boat by chopper or by another boat... it doesn't matter.

Clearly, you're insinuating with weak suggestions that Israel has just committed a crime. Stop making this thread even more stupid than it already is.

What I'm saying is exactly that.

The ship was anchored in International Waters when the I.D.F. were trying to pull a pirates of the Caribbean/Black Hawk down move,right?

And wouldn't it have been a better deal P.R. wise to try an easier approach to the situation during daylight hours,with clearly defined intent,maybe announcing that they were coming aboard to check things out before allowing them into port?

As far as I'm aware, they did announce that they were coming aboard. That they were in international waters isn't actually important*. I was going to argue that that law shouldn't apply here because the blockade shouldn't be recognised as legal, but I'm starting to agree with Kontan. I don't see how the Israelis can stop suffering on both sides. If the reports of malnutrition are correct they should obviously let more food in. Does anyone know if the blockade is working? There are still plenty of smuggling lines, especially tunnels over the Egyptian border right? So are the rocket attacks actually being reduced?




* 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

...Admit that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to military/naval procedure. Failure to do so in any way is by default an admittance to your love of sucking a sack of saggy scrots.

Not saying I'm on the side of the flotilla here but that passage about merchant vessels does not apply to this ship, as it carried humanitarian aid. As stipulated in the same San Remo agreement that the merchant vessel extract comes from, all ships carrying humanitarian aid are to not be attacked no matter where or why.

JCC, they didn't attack them just to attack them.

Nowhere in the agreement does it say that humanitarian vessels are exempt from inspections, unless I'm missing something. So far, from what we know, Israel did NOT attack them for the lulz. They boarded the vessel for inspection and was threatened by weapons, which elevates the use of force.

Clearly, based on what we know, this ship was totally asking for a beat down.

Yeah, you're right. I re-read and they're only exempt from attack if they submit to inspection, which the last ship obviously didn't. My bad.

It's cool, dude. No worries.

Oh, and I will give Deadman one night to admit he knows nothing to this point of naval/military/police procedure. Keep in mind, eventually he will admit it or his only other option is the confession that he indeed loves to gobble sacks of saggy scrotums like a good cock mongrel should.

Blah, fuck Israel.

Awww, isn't that cute. Donmara thinks it's smart.

Hey everyone, look how adorable the little tyke is.

I actually agree with deadman here. The flotilla stopped for over for hours while waiting for daylight to avoid a confirmation in the dark and risk injuries.

The IDF forces intentionally wanted to go in under cover of darkness and flew into international waters to make sure they could do this at night.

As we saw when they boarded the Rachel Corrie yesterday, they did so without helicopters, in broad daylight, and there was no issues.

Then there is the other legal argument which many of the humanitarian activists are putting forward. I will encoded and upload interviews done with the Irish on board the vessel which was raided - thy say the troops opened fire even as the troops were leaving the helicopters - the IDF claim it was not live fire but rubber bullets and stun grenades, which even if that is true begs the question, why go in firing off rubber bullets and using stun grenades before there is a problem?

The IDF went in like a SWAT team - attempting to use an early morning raid time with stun devices - which caused a panic - of course people are going to fight back once they think they their lives are in danger. It wouldn't be that big a stretch, as the IDF has a well documentation history of killing indiscriminately.

The Rachel Corrie was named after an American teenager executed by the IDF just a few years ago. In the past few years peace activists, cameramen, reporters, and staff of every major news network have been killed as well, not to mention the long list of civilians who were 'collateral damage'.

But thats the stance they take - always militaristic, and they have no cares when it comes to killing off a few innocent civilians, especially if they are ones who get in their way of collectively punishing millions of people.

JCC is correct on this one as well.

Also, per Raptors post, the maritime laws defining when you can board a vessel that in in violation of a blockage are very clear and are not what the israelis claim they are.

According to their spin doctors who we continually see on the news they claim if a vessel is 'heading towards' a blockade it can be boarded. This is not true. That is what borders are for. You can say someone was 'going to violate' a blockade. Either they violate it or they don't. This isn't Minority Report - there is no pre-crime unit arresting people before they commit an act.

I mean, if that were the rule then countries could sink ships all the time when other ships even passed by their maritime borders, it would lead to chaos. It would be like arresting someone for walking near your property instead of on it and charging them with attempting to almost trespass.

More importantly, if this were the case, there is another big issue that America has been keeping quite on. North Korea. If you have already forgot, they sunk a South Korean ship in international waters a few miles from the maritime border. If you excuse the israelis, then you have to apply the law equally and excuse North Korea. If you don't then you come off looking very bias against one country and towards another.

This has nothing to do with Hamas. This has to do with the 1.5 million people living in the worlds largest outdoor prison, who have no food, running water, or electricity and are forced to live in rubble piles. This is about collective punishment - the fact israel is in violation of a dozen Geneva Convention statues that cover this very sort of thing. As I mentioned above, 1.5 million people live there, over half are children, half are women. They have little to no say in this, and israel thinks it is ok to starve them and treat them like animals because they have an issue with one small political faction living there.

This is a sovereign nation - israel has no right to blockade a nation in efforts to force regime change. If Russia surrounded America and cut off all resources in efforts to force an election to bring in a more pro-Russian President, how do you think the average American would react? Even people who do not like the President would surely not support having an outside nation force upon them their political choice.

Hamas was elected through democratic elections. The funny thing is, that was because israel did this to the previous regime. That forced people who were voting to go even more extreme, which brought in Hamas. Once they were elected they put in a blockage around their nation. Is that how democracy is supposed to work?

Lets also not lose sight of something else here - Hamas is officially recognised as the legitimate governing body by pretty much all of the world, with the notable exceptions of the US, UK, and israel. I mean, the US always blasts Hamas, but here in Ireland leaders of Hamas visit regularly to speak at universities, to work with members of the Irish government, and other normal things that politicians do.

They had the opportunity to do so in Cyprus, when the UN monitors did so. They were offered the opportunity to do so again, prior to the boat crossing over into territorial waters. Both times the israelis refused the opportunity. They choose to come in with weapons at night and commander the ship instead of coming in during the day and inspecting the cargo.

No one was there to inspect anything, they were there to take the ship. They escalated the violence against peaceful protesters when no escalation was needed. They have a clear documented history of this. People on the boats feared for their lives - they grabbed whatever they could find in efforts to defend themselves against what they pervcive3d was a mass execution, and turns out they were not wrong.

[quoe] You're just going to jump the gun and say Israel is being an asshole because innocent little children are being starved to death. Well guess what? War fucking sucks. It's ugly, it's sick, and it doesn't CARE about the casualties. You CAN NOT BLAME ISRAEL for defending themselves from a political group who OPENLY says they intend on wiping them out. It's simple. Remove a TERRORISTIC group from power that INTENDS to destroy Israel or suffer the consequences of war. You and I should expect nothing less from any other nation trying to protect its people.
[/quote]

Really? I mean, really? This is collective punishment. By your justification above America should be able to starve out the people of Iraq until they get rid of all the hostile forces there. IT doesn't matter that a majority of the people are not politically active and that women and children have no vote or say in society, they will be starved and treated like animals as well because they are after a few people. Why not lock down entire neighborhoods in America when looking for a single suspect in a crime? Starve hundreds if not thousands of people all in hopes the people who live in a blockaded town will group together and remove the one person who the government wants removed. Thats not how civilised society works. You cannot punish hundreds of thousands of women and children because you have an issue with a few people. If you neighbor has an issue or dispute with someone, you should not have to suffer for their actions - thats basic human rights.

Actually the US, EU, and UN had observers there if you have forgotten already. The israelis forced out the previous regime and it was elected democratically with international observers. Again, by your reasoning, bush invaded Afghanistan. So therefore if Aghanis started bombing places in America to force out the bush regime (back when he was in power), then that would be acceptable? How many people in America do not agree with the government, then or now? Will punishing all Americans for who the majority voted for make sense to you?

Blockading humanitarian goods is never an option. No on is saying that removing weapons from a war zone is bad, but punishing children and blocking medical supplies in efforts to collectively punish a nation of people, women, children, the elderly, etc is nothing short of barbaric.

Since they refuse to even talk with them, we will not know until it happens. To assume that negotiations will not work before they have even been attempted seems a bit daft doesn't it? What if America during the Bay Of Pigs just said, why try talking to Russia, they of course will never listen, screw diplomacy.

If israel attempted to even try diplomatic channels and Hamas did still act in such a way they would no longer have the world support they have now. As I said, they are recognised around the world, with the exception of three countries.

So might makes right? Two wrongs make a right? Diplomacy is for the weak? If this were true then America would have won in Iraq and Afghanistan yeasr ago. They could just put a strangle hold on food and resources and starve the people until they submit. An means to an end as you are asserting there sure.

When you kill thousands of innocent women and children, when you deprive 1.5 million people of their basic human rights and force them to live in appalling conditions for any reason, then you can be blamed. Anyone who argues differently has a very black soul.

Was the flotilla designed to provoke some response? Of course. It was a humanitarian mission, and blocking it would mean having to attack civilian humanitarian workers. Then again, what alternatives are there to getting international media attention to this issue? Most of ye never heard of the Free Gaza movement, Rachel Corrie, the Gaza blockade, or any of the rest of this before last week.

This is the ninth time in a row over the past few years the flotilla has attempted to pass into Gaza, each time the people involved have been stopped and arrested. Each time the crew consisted of various EU parliament members, UN members, various human rights organisation members. How many people hear knew that? I did, because every year the Irish government along with many other European and Scandinavian governments donate aid to the flotilla, and every year the IDF intercept and destroy the cargo.

This year, there are many cameras on the issue - this year, the aid might actually make it through. This year, the crimes being perpetrated are actually making international headlines and even the US has been forced to stand up against the blockade which has been there for almost a decade.

It's funny how people act differently when they know the world is watching, eh?

"Heading towards" isn't a good description but you are talking about a news statement not a legal quote.

JCC was right, I quoted the wrong part of that document. However it applies the same principle to aid ships as merchant ships:

They were asked to divert to Ashdod for inspection and refused.


I don't see how that incident is the same as this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#I...ation_of_Hamas

Riiiight.

You know what...

Save for a small handful of people, you guys are fucking idiots.

Thank god you're a bunch of pussy liberals. It'd be interesting to see what would happen if you actually had the balls to take action against injustices. But thankfully, the best you can do is brow beat and finger wag. Oh, and ignore the statements of groups of people who SAY they want to kill and wipe out an entire group of other people, ignore their crimes, and cheer them on because it's OH SO LEFT WING to root for the underdogs and hate on the west.

Sometimes, I fucking hate having to call myself a liberal when it's so chocked full of institutionalized post-modern thinking crunchy granola fucks. Bunch of pussies.

Thank you.