This one actually IS for the Christians.
 

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded
Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden
Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
25. Lying approved and sanctioned
Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden
Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8
26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
Deut 23:7
27. Killing commanded
Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden
Ex 20:13
28. The blood-shedder must die
Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die
Gen 4:15
29. The making of images forbidden
Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded
Ex 25:18,20
30. Slavery and oppression ordained
Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden
Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10
31. Improvidence enjoyed
Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned
1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22
32. Anger approved
Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved
Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20
33. Good works to be seen of men
Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men
Matt 6:1
34. Judging of others forbidden
Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved
1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
35. Christ taught non-resistance
Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
Luke 22:36/ John 2:15
36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
John 7:1
37. Public prayer sanctioned
1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved
Matt 6:5,6
38. Importunity in prayer commended
Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned
Matt 6:7,8
39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned
1 Cor 11:14
40. Circumcision instituted
Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned
Gal 5:2
41. The Sabbath instituted
Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated
Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16
42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day
Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites
out of Egypt
Deut 5:15
43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death
Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in
the same
John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5
44. Baptism commanded
Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded
1 Cor 1:17,14
45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.
Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.
Deut 14:7,8
46. Taking of oaths sanctioned
Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden
Matt 5:34
47. Marriage approved
Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved
1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8
48. Freedom of divorce permitted
Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted
Matt 5:32
49. Adultery forbidden
Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed
Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3
50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced
Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union
Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16
51. A man may marry his brother's widow
Deut 25:5
A man may not marry his brother's widow
Lev 20:21
52. Hatred to kindred enjoined
Luke 14:26
Hatred to kindred condemned
Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29
53. Intoxicating beverages recommended
Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15
Intoxicating beverages discountenanced
Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32
54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers
and punish evil doers only
Rom 13:1-3,6
It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the
good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor
Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/
Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35
55. Women's rights denied
Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6
Women's rights affirmed
Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9
56. Obedience to masters enjoined
Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18
Obedience due to God only
Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10
57. There is an unpardonable sin
Mark 3:29
There is not unpardonable sin
Acts 13:39

Historical Facts

58. Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25,26,27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2:18,19
59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
Gen 8:22
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6
60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Ex 8:15
61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
All the horses of Egypt did not die
Ex 14:9
62. Moses feared Pharaoh
Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
Moses did not fear Pharaoh
Heb 11:27
63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
Num 25:9
There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
1 Cor 10:8
64. John the Baptist was Elias
Matt 11:14
John the Baptist was not Elias
John 1:21
65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli
Luke 3:23
66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad
Gen 11:12
The father of Salah was Cainan
Luke 3:35,36
67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:2-6
68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity
to Christ.
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian
captivity to Christ
Matt 1:12-16
69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
Luke 2:22, 39
70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness
Mark 1:12,13
Christ was not tempted in the wilderness
John 2:1,2
71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
Matt 5:1,2
Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
Luke 6:17,20
72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
Mark 1:14
John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
John 1:43/ John 3:22-24
73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff
and sandals
Mark 6:8,9
Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither
staffs nor sandals.
Matt 10:9,10
74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
Matt 15:22
It was a Greek woman who besought Him
Mark 7:26
75. Two blind men besought Jesus
Matt 20:30
Only one blind man besought Him
Luke 18:35,38
76. Christ was crucified at the third hour
Mark 15:25
Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
John 19:14,15
77. The two thieves reviled Christ.
Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32
Only one of the thieves reviled Christ
Luke 23:39,40
78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper
John 13:27
Satan entered into him before the supper
Luke 22:3,4,7
79. Judas committed suicide by hanging
Matt 27:5
Judas did not hang himself, but died another way
Acts 1:18
80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas
Acts 1:18
The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests
Matt 27:6,7
81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre
John 20:1
There were two women who came to the sepulchre
Matt 28:1
82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:1
There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre
Luke 24:10
83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:2
It was some time before sunrise when they came.
John 20:1
84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
they were standing up.
Luke 24:4
There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Matt 28:2,5
85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.
John 20:11,12
There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre
Mark 16:5
86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>
87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost
Acts 1:8,5
Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost
John 20:22
88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go into Galilee
Matt 28:10
The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem
Luke 24:49
89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at
Jerusalem
Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
Matt 28:16,17
90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
Acts 1:9,12
Christ ascended from Bethany
Luke 24:50,51
91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood
speechless
Acts 9:7
Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate
Acts 26:14
92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan
Gen 12:5
Abraham went not knowing where
Heb 11:8
93. Abraham had two sons
Gal 4:22
Abraham had but one son
Heb 11:17
94. Keturah was Abraham's wife
Gen 25:1
Keturah was Abraham's concubine
1 Chron 1:32
95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the
interposition of Providence
Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12
Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years
old without any interposition of providence
Gen 25:1,2
96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor
Josh 24:32
Abraham bought it of Hamor
Acts 7:16
97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed
forever
Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8
Abraham and his seed never received the promised land
Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13
98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan
2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be
correct. Original manuscript was incorrect>
The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan
1 Chron 20:5
99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram
2 Kings 8:25
Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram
2 Kings 9:29
100. Michal had no child
2 Sam 6:23
Michal had five children
2 Sam 21:8
101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel
2 Sam 24:1
David was tempted by Satan to number the people
1 Chron 21:1
102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of
Judah 500,000
2 Sam 24:9
The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of
Judah 470,000
1 Chron 21:5
103. David sinned in numbering the people
2 Sam 24:10
David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah
1 Kings 15:5
104. One of the penalties of David's sin was seven years of
famine.
2 Sam 24:13
It was not seven years, but three years of famine
1 Chron 21:11,12
105. David took seven hundred horsemen
2 Sam 8:4
David took seven thousand horsemen
1 Chron 18:4
106. David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver
2 Sam 24:24
David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of
gold
1 Chron 21:25
107. David's throne was to endure forever.
Ps 89:35-37
David's throne was cast down
Ps 89:44

Speculative Doctrines

108. Christ is equal with God
John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
Christ is not equal with God
John 14:28/ Matt 24:36
109. Jesus was all-powerful
Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
Jesus was not all-powerful
Mark 6:5
110. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
Matt 5:17-19
111. Christ's mission was peace
Luke 2:13,14
Christ's mission was not peace
Matt 10:34
112. Christ received not testimony from man
John 5:33,34
Christ did receive testimony from man
John 15:27
113. Christ's witness of himself is true.
John 8:18,14
Christ's witness of himself is not true.
John 5:31
114. Christ laid down his life for his friends
John 15:13/ John 10:11
Christ laid down his life for his enemies
Rom 5:10
115. It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 19:7
It was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 18:31
116. Children are punished for the sins of the parents
Ex 20:5
Children are not punished for the sins of the parents
Ezek 18:20
117. Man is justified by faith alone
Rom 3:20/ Gal 2:16/ Gal 3:11,12/ Rom 4:2
Man is not justified by faith alone
James 2:21,24/ Rom 2:13
118. It is impossible to fall from grace
John 10:28/ Rom 8:38,39
It is possible to fall from grace
Ezek 18:24/ Heb 6:4-6, 2 Pet 2:20,21
119. No man is without sin
1 Kings 8:46/ Prov 20:9/ Eccl 7:20/ Rom 3:10
Christians are sinless
1 John 3: 9,6,8
120. There is to be a resurrection of the dead
1 Cor 15:52/ Rev 20:12,13/ Luke 20:37/ 1 Cor 15:16
There is to be no resurrection of the dead
Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14
121. Reward and punishment to be bestowed in this world
Prov 11:31
Reward and punishment to be bestowed in the next world
Rev 20:12/ Matt 16:27/ 2 Cor 5:10
122. Annihilation the portion of all mankind
Job 3: 11,13-17,19-22/ Eccl 9:5,10/ Eccl 3:19,20
Endless misery the portion of all mankind
Matt 25:46/ Rev 20:10,15/ Rev 14:11/ Dan 12:2
123. The Earth is to be destroyed
2 Pet 3:10/ Heb 1:11/ Rev 20:11
The Earth is never to be destroyed
Ps 104:5/ Eccl 1:4
124. No evil shall happen to the godly
Prov 12:21/ 1 Pet 3:13
Evil does happen to the godly
Heb 12:6/ Job 2:3,7
125. Worldly good and prosperity are the lot of the godly
Prov 12:21/ Ps 37:28,32,33,37/ Ps 1:1,3/ Gen 39:2/
Job 42:12
Worldly misery and destitution the lot of the godly
Heb 11:37,38/ Rev 7:14/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Luke 21:17
126. Worldly prosperity a reward of righteousness and a blessing
Mark 10:29,30/ Ps 37:25/ Ps 112:1,3/ Job 22:23,24/
Prov 15:6
Worldly prosperity a curse and a bar to future reward
Luke 6:20,24/ Matt 6:19,21/ Luke 16:22/ Matt 19:24/
Luke 6:24
127. The Christian yoke is easy
Matt 11:28,29,30
The Christian yoke is not easy
John 16:33/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Heb 12:6,8
128. The fruit of God's spirit is love and gentleness
Gal 5:22
The fruit of God's spirit is vengeance and fury
Judg 15:14/ 1 Sam 18:10,11
129. Longevity enjoyed by the wicked
Job 21:7,8/ Ps 17:14/ Eccl 8:12/ Is 65:20
Longevity denied to the wicked
Eccl 8:13/ Ps 55:23/ Prov 10:27/ Job 36:14/ Eccl 7:17
130. Poverty a blessing
Luke 6:20,24/ Jams 2:5
Riches a blessing
Prov 10:15/ Job 22:23,24/ Job 42:12
Neither poverty nor riches a blessing
Prov 30:8,9
131. Wisdom a source of enjoyment
Prov 3:13,17
Wisdom a source of vexation, grief and sorrow
Eccl 1:17,18
132. A good name is a blessing
Eccl 7:1/ Prov 22:1
A good name is a curse
Luke 6:26
133. Laughter commended
Eccl 3:1,4/ Eccl 8:15
Laughter condemned
Luke 6:25/ Eccl 7:3,4
134. The rod of correction a remedy for foolishness
Prov 22:15
There is no remedy for foolishness
Prov 27:22
135. A fool should be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:5
A fool should not be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:4
136. Temptation to be desired
James 1:2
Temptation not to be desired
Matt 6:13
137. Prophecy is sure
2 Pet 1:19
Prophecy is not sure
Jer 18:7-10
138. Man's life was to be one hundred and twenty years
Gen 6:3/ Ps 90:10
Man's life is but seventy years
Ps 90:10
139. The fear of man was to be upon every beast
Gen 9:2
The fear of man is not upon the lion
Prov 30:30
140. Miracles a proof of divine mission
Matt 11:2-5/ John 3:2/ Ex 14:31
Miracles not a proof of divine mission
Ex 7:10-12/ Deut 13:1-3/ Luke 11:19
141. Moses was a very meek man
Num 12:3
Moses was a very cruel man
Num 31:15,17
142. Elijah went up to heaven
2 Kings 2:11
None but Christ ever ascended into heaven
John 3:13
143. All scripture is inspired
2 Tim 3:16
Some scripture is not inspired
1 Cor 7:6/ 1 Cor 7:12/ 2 Cor 11:17

Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
- Matthew 10:34

... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
- Matthew 26:52





For wrath killeth the foolish man...
- Job 5:2

... let not the sun go down on your wrath.
- Ephesians 4:26





And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which
is in heaven.
- John 3:13

... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
- 2 Kings 2:11





If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
- John 5:31

I am one that bear witness of myself...
- John 8:18
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]





A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children...
- Proverbs 13:22

Sell that ye have and give alms...
- Luke 12:33





Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house...
- Psalms 112:1-3

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24





I and my father are one.
- John 10:30

... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
- John 14:28
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]






Thou shalt not kill
- Exodus 20:13

Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his
side... and slay every man his brother...
- Exodus 32:27






Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.
- Exodus 20:8

The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot
away with: it is iniquity.
- Isaiah 3:22





Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness
of anything that is in heaven... earth... [or] water.
- Leviticus 26:11

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt
thou make them.
- Exodus 25:18






For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works.
- Ephesians 2:8-9

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.
- James 2:24





God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man,
that he should repent.
- Numbers 23:19

And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his
people.
- Exodus 32:14





... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall
hear his voice, and come forth...
- John 5:28-29

As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth
down to the grave shall come up no more.
- Job 7:9






... thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth,
hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for
wound, stripe for stripe.
- Exodus 21:23-25

... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right
cheek, turn to him the other also.
- Matthew 5:39





Honor thy father and mother.
- Exodus 20:12

If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
life also, he cannot be my disciple.
- Luke 14:26





Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth...
- Matthew 6:19

In the house of the righteous is much treasure...
- Proverbs 15:6





I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
- Genesis 32:30

No man hath seen God at any time.
- John 1:18





The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.
- Ezekiel 18:20

... I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth
generation.
- Exodus 20:5





Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth
understanding.
- Proverbs 3:13

For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth
knowledge increaseth sorrow.
- Ecclesiastes 1:18





The Lord is good to all.
- Psalm 145:6

I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.
- Isaiah 45:7






Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
- Matthew 5:22

[Jesus said] Ye fools and blind.
- Matthew 23:17






For all have sinned.
- Romans 3:23

There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect
and upright.
- Job 1:1






Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign.
- 2 Kings 8:26

Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign.
- 2 Chronicles 22:2






If a man vow a vow unto the Lord or swear an oath... he shall do
according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
- Numbers 30:2

But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven... nor by
earth.
- Matthew 5:34-35






... the earth abideth forever.
- Ecclesiastes 1:4

... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and
the works that are therein shall be burned up.
- 2 Peter 3:10






... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger
forever.
- Jeremiah 3:12

Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever.
- Jeremiah 17:4





... God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
- James 1:13

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt
Abraham.
- Genesis 22:1





And God saw everything that he made, and behold it was very good.
- Genesis 1:31

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on earth, and it
grieved him at his heart
- Genesis 6:6






For now have I chosen and sanctified this house that my name be
there forever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there
perpetually.
- II Chronicles 7:16

Howbeit the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands.
- Acts 7:48





[God dwells] in the light which no man can approach unto.
- I Timothy 6:16

The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

- I Kings 8:12






And the Lord called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid.
- Genesis 3:9,10

Ye hath neither heard his voice, at any time, nor seen his shape.
- John 5:37






Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the
elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel... They saw
God, and did eat and drink.
- Exodus 24: 9-11

Whom no man hath seen nor can see.
- I Timothy 6:16





With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26

And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19






God is not the author of confusion.
- I Corinthians 24:33

Out of the mouth of the most high proceedeth not evil and good?
- Lamentations 3:38






Those that seek me early shall find me.
- Proverbs 8:17

Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer; they shall
seek me early, but shall not find me.
- Proverbs 1:28





On the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of
atonement; it shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall
afflict your souls and offer an offering made by fire unto the
Lord.
- Leviticus 23:27

For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day
that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt
offering or sacrifices.
- Jeremiah 7:22






And the priest shall burn all on the altar to be a burnt
sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the
Lord.
- Leviticus 1:9

Your burnt offering are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet
unto me.
- Jeremiah 7:20

God is not a man, that he should lie
- Numbers 23:19

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the
Lord have deceived that prophet.
- Ezekiel 24:9





There is none other God but one.
- I Corinthians 8:4

And God said, Let us make man in our image.
- Genesis 1:26






When ye go, ye shall not go empty; but every woman shall borrow
of her neighbor, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels
of silver and jewels of gold, and raiment; and ye shall put them
on your sons and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the
Egyptians.
- Exodus 3:21,22

Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, nether rob him.
- Leviticus 19:13






At the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of
man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed.
- Genesis 4:5,6

And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should
kill him.
- Genesis 4:15





Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not,
neither do they spin... if God so clothe the grass of the
field... shall he not much more clothe you? Therefore, take no
thought, saying what shall we eat? or what shall we drink? or
wherewithal shall we be clothed?... Take, therefore, no thought
for the morrow.
- Matthew 6:28, 30-34

But if any provideth not for his own, especially for those of his
own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an
infidel.
- I Timothy 5:8






Be ye angry and sin not.
- Ephesians 4:26

Be not hasty in they spirit to be angry; for anger resideth in
the bosom of fools.
- Ecclesiastes 7:9





Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good
works.
- Matthew 5:16

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of
them.
- Matthew 6:1





And Solomon stood before the alter of the Lord, in the presence
of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands
toward heaven...
- I Kings 7:22

When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for
they love to pray standing in the synagogues, and in the corners
of the streets, that they may be seen of men...
- Matthew 6:5





And no razor shall come on his head; for the child shall be a
Nazarite unto God from the womb.
- Judges 8:5

Doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man hath long
hair, it is a shame unto him?
- I Corinthians 6:14






Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
- Exodus 20:8

One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every
day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
- Romans 14:5




For in the six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and
all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the
Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
- Exodus 20:11

And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and
that the Lord thy God brought the out thence through a mighty
hand and by a stretched-out arm; therefore the Lord thy God
commanded the to keep the Sabbath day.
- Deuteronomy 5:15






There is nothing unclean of itself.
- Romans 14:14

Nevertheless, these shall ye not eat, of them that chew the cud or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel and the hare, and the coney; for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof, therefore they are unclean unto you. And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass.
- Deuteronomy 14:7,8





Cursed is he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother.
- Deuteronomy 27:22

And Abraham said... She is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
- Genesis 20:11,12






If brethren dwell together, and one of them die and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger; her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife.
- Deuteronomy 25:5

If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing... they shall be childless.
- Leviticus 20:21




He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness.
- Mark 3:29

And by him that believe are justified from all things.
- Acts 13:39




[John the Baptist] is Elias which was for to come.
- Matthew 11:14

And they asked him, what then? Art thou [John the Baptist] Elias? And he saith, I am not.
- John 1:21





Now, after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee,
preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God.
- Mark 1:14

After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea... and John was also baptizing Enon... for John was not yet cast into prison.
- John 3:22-24






And it was in the third hour, and they crucified him.
- Mark 25:3-4

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour; and he saith unto the Jews, behold your king... Shall I crucify your king?
- John 19:14-15





They gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall.
- Matthew 27:34

And they gave him to drink, wine mingled with myrrh.
- Mark 15:23
[Jesus was the thirsty chap in both verses.]




And the men which journeyed with [Paul] stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
- Acts 9:7

And they that were with me [Paul] saw indeed the light and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
- Acts 22:9



Abraham had two sons; one by a bonds-maid, the other by a free woman.
- Galatians 4:22

By faith, Abraham when he was tried offered up Isaac... his only begotten son.
- Hebrews 11:17





Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child unto the day of her death.
- II Samuel 6:23

The five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul.
- II Samuel 21:8





And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel.
- II Samuel 24:1

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
- I Chronicles 21:1





All power is given unto [Jesus] in heaven and in earth.
- Matthew 28:18

And [Jesus] could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands on a few sick folk and healed them.
- Mark 6:5


There shall no evil happen to the just.
- Proverbs 12:21

Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
- Hebrews 12:6

As far as I know, this is a compendium of contradictions and other verses in the bible that condone bad behavior or what have you.

My question is: Based on this book, why is it relevant or even NON-dangerous to believe in this?

I wish I could find a compendium of even the Torah and Quo-ran, but what are ya gonna do?

Yup, too many cooks spoil the soup. That is why I just follow Jesus. I not only remove the old testament (the Jewish book), but even remove authors in the new testament like Paul who never met Jesus, and go off on a tangent from what Jesus spoke about. When you listen to one man, you (usually) get better consistency than trying to follow...how many authors combined wrote the bible? Forty something?

So yeah, distill it down to the man the new testament is mainly about, the man that overturned stoning and other non-loving "laws" and preached love, and you get a less contradictory guide to follow.

But you see? You've distilled the word in order to reconcile your discomfort with your faith. You've basically taken your own spin on things, picked and chosen what best seems to fit with what is comforting. Though you tried to pick wisely, you DO choose to ignore the old testament which does not excuse Yewey for his behavior in the past. You decide that Jesus is the only thing worth holding on to, but you're willing to ignore the actions of Yewey.

Not only that, there are SEVERAL quotes of what Jesus himself had said in that list that is also contradictory. What answers do you have for that?

Technically the Old Testament doesn't really matter that much to Christianity anyway, Jesus was quite the rebel in his day and I dunno if you know this, he kinda pissed off Jewish leaders at the time by basically saying its okay to break religious law, literalism doesn't matter so much, all that matters is being a good person. I hear he got in some pretty hot water as a result.

There's a lot of interpretations with the Bible and a shit ton of contradictions, indeed, but if no one nit picked there wouldn't be so many denominations and there would be such thing as Christian theology. Religion evolves, as you can see in the Old Testament, such as changing their minds about the nature of God, and from the Old to New Testament there's a huge shift in thinking about the nature of Satan. He's not that bad of a guy in the Old Testament. What was happening was the author's idea of God and religion were changing over time, it wasn't written overnight by one guy, its a collaboration of different people's views on the divine over a very long period of time. If you let religion act fluidly, its people are much easier to get along with and they are far more open minded. Its when literalism and fanaticism come into play, when we say things must not change, thats when we have a problem.

And Jesus was a pretty mellow, pacifist guy, there's inconsistencies between the gospels because they were again, by different authors remembering the stories differently. What we can glean though was that he was very different from other messiahs (there were many throughout the ages) because he practice nonviolence, spoke out against religious hypocrisy and was kind and loving to those who the temple would shun, like lepers and prostitutes and gentiles. A Gandhi type character before his time. Christianity from the start rejected a lot of the Old Testament, the basis was that it wasn't the best way anymore, there's a better way. The Christianity Jesus probably had in mind was a pretty peaceful religion, and then Christians like Paul fucked it all up again and turned it into something worse than what he was protesting. The further back you go and look at different historical accounts there's going to be more and more arguments over what really happened, and this is what scholars, historians and theologists, do, they try to figure out the fact from the commentary of the writers.

And I'm not arguing there's not a shit ton of inconsistencies, but some of those need to be read in context, such as:

Abraham had two sons; one by a bonds-maid, the other by a free woman.
- Galatians 4:22

By faith, Abraham when he was tried offered up Isaac... his only begotten son.
- Hebrews 11:17

Since Ishmael was born of Sarah's handmaid, not Sarah, when Isaac was born he wasn't considered important anymore, even though he was born first, so yeah Isaac would be his only official son. Poor Ishmael didn't count anymore.

Just goes to show God was a woman - couldn't make up her mind.

Actually, I wasn't referring to Jesus' character. However, I will say that I don't think he was divine. Also, I don't think it's an entirely fair argument that was presented, but out of that list, I'm sure there is some VERY concrete contradictions that at least leaves many with egg on their face.

This is the word of God, Saya, as MOST Christians will put it. I didn't say that it was, but they did. The problem is, if God is the parameters of perfection, then God shouldn't have to change his mind... ever. The idea of perfection is something that is inarguable, unchanging, and well... perfect.

Sure, we can say that Christianity can use whatever mental gymnastics they want to make sure their religion is relevant today, but to be so bold as to change the very word of your god pretty much makes you about as relevant as pagans. And if it isn't exactly the word of God, then what business do they have listening to a bunch of assholes like Paul?

If I remember correctly, Ghandi quoted Jesus's sermon on the mount and said the British at the time that if everyone followed the principles here then he would not only have solved the problems between his country and the British, but the whole world. He then duly noted that the Christians don't often practice what they preach.

Kotan, TOO LONG, DIDN'T READ.

I will try to do a bit of research on these when I have some spare time to negate said contradictions, but you've put up a damn huge amount of scriptures with the context taken out of the picture. Here's one example:

The scripture refers to the heaven's of which there are many. The words often mean things like "the sky" "outer space" and THEN the heaven in which God resides in. In this instance, it is the mid-heavens aka The Sky. Elijah was taken off in a chariot of fire into the mid-heavens are transported to another location. We can be sure of this because Elijah later wrote a letter to one of the kings of Israel AFTER this instance. He couldn't have written it from the Heaven where God resides, so he never ascended to said Heaven. Contradiction solved.

I was just thinking about the bible this morning...and how sad I am that so many of my family members cling to it so dearly with they're lives. I remember a time when I thought it was God's word, but I also remember my moments of feeling so iffy...like how the fuck could that have possibly happened?

I know you're in a place where Christians are more extreme than they are here, but Pentecosts aside MOST Christians I know do agree its not the word of God. A friend of mine is a United minister and she doesn't even think it was written by god. We can say its a fact it was written by people who wrote them long after the events they are recounting have happened. And thats why they don't particularly pay attention to Paul, he was an asshole who hijacked a lovely religion and sent it on its way back to being a religion of judgment and holier than thou attitudes. Then we got Constantine throwing out the good bits, and keeping what he did specifically so Christianity could become a state religion that the Roman Empire could use. Its gone through massive amounts of editing and a lot of Christians do know this, I'm taking a Christianity course now for shits and giggles and yeah, no one's got offended yet when the prof goes through St.Mark's gospel and explains the historical significance of it, where it might be wrong or later contradicted. I don't think anyone here could get through Theology or the Christian Religious Studies if they refused to question anything. The fact that people like Paul conveniently claimed that his words were the will of God doesn't amount to much if you recognize the man was a douchebag anyway.

And really, I only care as much as I do because I enjoy learning about other religions, mostly it only bothers me when someone uses their religion as a justification of bigotry, homophobia, sexism, or any way in which it can be used to hurt someone who is doing absolutely nothing wrong. Or when people believe it just for the sake of believing it with no critical thought. The people who do think critically and try to figure out what they think is true, conjecture or false are typically in my experience not the type to get into anyone's face about it. If someone just honestly only believes in the "turn the other cheek" stuff, I can't see how its dangerous at all.

I totally agree that people who do believe its the word of God reaaaally need to read the damn thing and realize there is no way it can be, but I don't see the point of getting huffy over HP recognizing it and simply believing in Jesus. If people know there are contradictions and still believe in some of it, what can you say to make them change their mind? Absolutely nothing, and they're typically not the type of people who's going to give you trouble anyway. And how many literalists do we have on gnet?

Sorry it took me a while to respond, been ultra busy at work.

Whoa, now hold on, I don't have any discomfort in my faith. Actually I am very comfortable with it, so much so that I am confident in discussing it (as I have many times in the past).

I distill the bible not to reconcile it with my comfort level, I distill it because I have learned over time that some people make more sense than others, that some people are after power, some people are extreme, etc. etc. etc. and so just as I make judgments about people I meet in today's world when I listen to what they say, I do the same thing when I read what people say what they did back then. I throw out Scientology today as I throw out Paul ranting against gays back then. As Saya said, religions evolve, they are fluid because generations are fluid.

Philosophy is something of a science, it searches for truth, but not physical facts, but reasoning, and the search for philosophical truth means that as we find what works and what doesn't we change our theories, we put together new frameworks for behaving, as demonstrated by those in the bible that introduced new frameworks then.


Precisely. Or were you trying to make a point of "all or nothing" in standing by the bible? Sorry if I don't follow your line of thought. If it is the latter I disagree that I cannot be a follower of Jesus if I don't follow the WHOLE bible, in which case you are making the same point as Christian Fundamentalists.

This a legitimate case for citing "context". Let's take one of the "contradictory examples:

Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
- Matthew 10:34

... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
- Matthew 26:52

In the first quote, Jesus is not talking about a weapon, but that examining oneself with honesty and openness can cut one like a knife, it pierces through to our heart, stripping away self deceit and the sham we present to others and reveals our true (faulty) selves.

In the second quote however, He is talking about a real sword, a weapon.

So there really isn't a contradiction. Different "swords".

This is similar for the other "examples".
We would really have to triage them one case at a time.

I'm honestly a little miffed about how you can claim to "follow only Jesus" when Jesus never wrote a gospel. I mean, if you're going to throw out Paul, then why not Matthew and Luke, etc.?

Aren't you just following an amalgamation of (at least 3) other guys views of Jesus? (and how does that square with your "too many cooks" adage)

I mean, all the gospels are anonymous. There's no evidence any of these people even met Jesus (which would explain why they keep contradicting each other about important things like the friggin' resurrection and the events leading up to it:

It goes on from there. This isn't the other disciples not being square with Paul, this is (arguably) the "first hand" accounts of his death and resurrection, and it's all over the place and these are the people who knew him best.

What makes you think that simply rejecting Paul and the Old Testament is going to give you a pass?

A lot of contradictions can also be explained away with translation problems. Even reading a copy of an ancient Bible written in Latin (which is itself a translation of a text which was most likely a translation of a text written generations after Christ died) produces a clearer picture. This isn't to say that there are no contradictions but that a massive amount is lost in translation, such as different words for different kinds of sons and different heavens, and every time it gets translated to a new language more gets muddled up.

Also when trying to find the central ideas or get the closest that you can to “the truth” you can look to find where accounts agree. Picking the one out that is different tells little, just that someone has a different story to tell, if all accounts are different then that shows something, if only one account is different then it is an outlier, just like in statistics. There are people who deny the Holocaust, that have been in books and on tv but that doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen or even that we can’t know for sure that it happened, I can only hope that in the future those few people aren’t enough to cast doubt in the minds of scholars as to whether or not it happened. This isn’t to say that the Bible is the truth, I myself am not a believer, just that you don't have as much of an argument as you seem to think.

What argument do you think we're making?

AronRa said that if there were a supreme being that took up the task of writing a book for humans, it would be just one holy book across all cultures, and it would be clear and easy to understand. There would be no vagaries, no contradictions, no parts that you're supposed to dismiss as "outdated" or "figurative." It would just be one perfect book.

I am inclined to agree.

Alternative theory: God is a dickhead.

Yah this makes sense.

I was assuming all of the "omnies" were in place, but that works too.

This video In particular seems relevant.

"Muslims killing everyone else" bwuhahaha!

Des: I am at work now but will post a reply later today.

That Christians are idiots because the Bible is full of contradictions.

Actually, we're arguing that the bible is clearly not the Word of God, due to said contradictions.

I don't think Christians are idiots per se, I think they just believe it because they were indoctrinated as children and haven't actually read the bible.

Fair enough, I doubt anyone here is going to refute that and say the bible was *poof* created by God since there are very few people who actually think it is, there are a lot of groups that think it was written through divine inspirations, which means that yes it is divine but since it was written by human hands it is still fallible.

Not to mention most other religions are perfectly fine knowing there's different accounts, so why can't Humane or any other moderate Christian? The message usually stays the same, and some contradictions are a matter of context and interpretation. Fuck, I'd be here for ages picking through contradictions if this was about Buddhist sutras. Or any other religion with a written text.

I think you're underestimating the sheer number of Christians who believe the bible to be the Word of God. There's a massive debate in the United States about Gay marriage because of a few lines in Leviticus. One of George Bush's (theorized) reasons for invading the middle east was to bring about the Armageddon spoken of in Revelation. A politician who isn't a Christian is all but unelectable. Yet all the while the entire thing is based around an amalgamation of stories from a bunch of savage dessert-dwelling barbarians.

Besides "Divinely inspired but fallible" is a cop-out. Precisely what sort of all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god allows his own instruction manual to become so chock full of errors? I mean this stuff is kind of important, if you get it wrong, you wind up in a lake of fire for all eternity, and if you can't trust God's own blueprint then what can you trust?

But whats wrong with thinking its created by humans by what they know of the divine? I mean from Biblical accounts Jesus was very much against fanaticism, and particularly the ostracizing of "sinners", and was very much trying to stop people from taking it to that level. But people being people and waiting thirty years after the fact to write fuck all down, and later twisting it around to service their needs, that changed. Its no wonder Paul wrote all those judgemental and bloody gorey bits and threw out the gnostics, and Constantine kept the spirit of that, they were Romans who didn't get the whole love thy neighbour bit and didn't know what it was to be oppressed and shunned. And I don't mean to say that its all the Romans's fault, but more that part of the problem is that it was very much tainted by narrow political views. Judas was inspired by Jesus and he still fucked up, why can't Paul?

But the message does not stay the same. Moderate Christians are all well and good, until they elect a fanatic because he's "a good Christian" or vote against gay marriage because "They don't hate gays but the bible does".

Even here in Gnet, we've got folks like Tam Li Hua, who use it as an excuse to embrace bigotry.

The Bible, and Christianity as a whole is extremely concerned with salvation through faith, ie: rewards in exchange for blind submission to authority.

George Bush stated that Jesus was his "favorite political philosopher" and then invaded Iraq with no exit plan, at least partly because he felt that God wanted him to free the Iraqis, and God would see to it that we enjoyed victory.

Whether you like it or not, that book dictates and shapes public policy, and it's message of submission permeates Western society further than we can imagine. This is further enabled by billions of "Moderate Christians" who haven't even read it, and instead "have faith" because their parents told them they needed to or they'd go to hell.

Honestly, it's 2010, and reasonable people need to stop tiptoeing around the insanity inherent within the christian religion. The bible should be recognized for what it is: the helter-skelter scribblings of a bunch of pissed-off desert nomads; about as relevant to today's world as Greek and Norse mythology. Instead, it's a tool that dicates political and social policy for the entire united states and beyond, partly because people won't speak up against it out of politeness and respect for "moderate Christians".

Fuck that.

Because it doesn't make sense that an all-powerful, perfect deity would allow that to occur.

Honestly, I have no problem with Jesus (except when he did weird stuff like magically whither a fig tree because he wanted a snack but it didn't have any figs for him). I have a problem with people believing that he was divine, because all the evidence says he was not, and people base public policy on his divinity and not his philosophy.

No argument about that, but I'm talking about the message of Jesus specifically, which can go here and there at times but largely if people took the time to fucking read the thing (and I do greatly suspect that most Christians don't) you would be able to see that he was a pretty peaceful loving guy. And in context, what he did was pretty ballsy in a Gandhi sort of way, more on that in a second.

That is true, but concerning ourselves with Christ only, you could see why it was very appealing at the time. Jerusalem was occupied by the Romans, people were taxed and oppressed and starving, and religious frenzy was at a great height, but the fanaticism barred a lot of people participating in religious life and therefore excluded them from being respected members of society. If you got sick, was your own fault, you're unclean. You collect taxes for the Romans or associate with gentiles, you're unclean. Fuck, touch a menstruating woman and you're unclean. If you read the thing after Jesus heals people, I'm particularly thinking of the leper, he tells them to go to the temple. And then the Pharisees started thinking they should off him, especially after he pointed out the hypocrisy of having a marketplace in the temple. At the time it was a huge FUCK YOU to the people excluding the sick and sinners, and denied the religious authority they claimed. Jesus forgave people and he wasn't an educated Scribe or anything, he just rode in on a donkey and told people that anything they do can be forgiven, God loves EVERYONE, even the sinners and Gentiles. It was a brave and remarkable thing, and of course it was going to be appealing to the oppressed people. Very early Christians were mostly pacifists and from most accounts hip and groovy like Jesus.

Its only a small thing on the long long long list of things done by Christians in the name of Christ, that would make baby Jesus cry, I think.

See, maybe this is a regional thing, I know its crazy in the States right now and I'm in communist Canada but really, most moderates I know don't think I'd go to hell. I know a few, there are churches around who are still fire and brimstone, don't get me wrong, but the ones that have the most sway are the ones that are very accepting, by Christian standards. My mom's minister left years ago because she was pissed that her bishop wouldn't let her perform gay marriages (and I think since they had to move or he left because it was too hard to find a minister who agreed with him.) When I became Buddhist most people were very accepting of that, I even got to be a counselor at a BIBLE STUDY camp of all things, and they were pretty cool with it.

Its not that I don't think Christianity as an institution shouldn't be held responsible for the havoc it has caused. I have been a critic here of such things many many many times. And it wasn't a short while ago that I was also arguing that its stupid to have faith for all the wrong reasons (as an emotional crutch, because your parents told you.) I can't agree that its not totally relevant, even as a Buddhist I find the story of Jesus (sans resurrection) to be pretty inspiring, and the dude had good parables to boot. I think its a great example of why religion and politics need to stay the fuck away from each other, and there's a shitload of things I vehemently disagree with, I just don't get whats the problem with saying you only follow Jesus. Humane from what I remember him talking about in politics is generally pretty Liberal and supports things like gay marriage. His personal faith is harmless.

People will probably always have religion. Many people are more and more secular, and thats good, but there will never be a day where no one has any religion at all. Its not eradicating every bit of Jesus we can find that is going to solve the problem, its the problem of religious people needing to learn (like many have I assure you) that faith is a very personal thing that is just that, very personal, and you should probably keep it to yourself. I like the saying that religion is like a penis. Its fine that you have one, but don't wave it around in public or shove it down our throats.

Dude, that was an epic post. I would love to quote that several times over but the whole thing deserves credit.

Saya:

What does any of that have to do with what I'm talking about? Seriously, it's like you're cross posting from another discussion or something.
It's great that you're surrounded by so many liberals, but we just had a rather conservative born-again Christian with access to nuclear weapons start a war in the middle east. Oh and also:

That's something Jesus said, and it was in one of the Gospels that wasn't written by Paul. So clearly, Jesus may be all well and groovy, but at the end of the day, he thinks you're going to hell. As should anyone who "Just follows Jesus".

Do I think HP thinks you're going to Hell? Nope, but that's because Humane Pain follows a Jesus he made up himself. He ignores the parts of the Bible he finds distasteful, and focuses on the things he likes.

Which is all well and good, if it were just Humane Pain, but Christianity is a whole lot bigger than that.

If I were running for office and said the things I have said in this thread, it would be a political train-wreck. "Moderate Christians" the world over would be offended and outraged that I dared to impune their holy book and their religion, and radical Christians would be calling for my head.

By and large Parents don't teach their children that Jesus was a cool guy with some groovy peace-loving ideas, they teach their children to believe that he was the son of God. His authority does not come from the value of his teachings, it comes from the circumstances of his birth and death. Therefore, if his teachings hadn't been peace-loving, but instead "stone the non-believers" they would be equally as valid, and thus it's much easier to ignore the inconvenient "turn the other cheek" in favor of being "a warrior for God".

It is dangerously naive to think that these teachings are divine, or even divinely-inspired, just as it is dangerously naive to assume that Humane Pain's attitude is the one most prevalent among believers in Jesus Christ (because trust me, it isn't).

Because HP was talking about the Jesus I'm talking about, not George Bush, not people who disagree with gay marriage, you're using the fanatic to argue against a true moderate. If we disagree with "all Muslims are fanatics because of 911", why can't we disagree with "all Christians are inherently assholes because of George Bush"? It has nothing to do with HP's personal faith.

Yeah but its not HP's fault. We all agree that religion is being used for shitty things, and it isn't just Christianity. Again, you're the one going way off on a tangent. This has nothing to do with why HP follows only the Biblical Jesus.


He doesn't quite say that if you don't follow him you go to hell. He said it after Thomas wanted to know that after he died and went to heaven, how will they know how to follow him? Here Jesus says that he is God, God is in us all and Jesus will lead the way. Do as he does and you'll be fine, and if you really loved him you'd do as he does. Early Christians even still thought of themselves as Jews, if to be explicitly Christian and a member of this denomination or that, and we accept that Jesus was saying it was him or hell, then quite a few early saints would have to be stripped of their sainthood.

But faith is again, extremely personal. HP doesn't need to answer for George Bush or other fanatics. My Buddhism is far different from the person meditating next to me, and I'm sure thats true for other serious practitioner of other faiths. Yes on paper Christianity seems unified to some degree but there's a lot about religions you can never know or experience by just reading about what some fuckheads who believe in it are doing.

How does that make them moderate? Should I start saying "Hippie commie Christians"? There are many parts of the world where nobody would give two shits and quite a few would agree. Jack Layton of the NDP here in Canada said something along the lines of Pastor Terry Jones needs to actually read the Bible's message of love and understanding before he condemns other religions, no one has called for his head that I am aware of. I don't think anyone at all batted an eye. I wouldn't imagine anyone would be demanding Layton should renounce his own Christian faith because of Pastor Jones though.

I would disagree, at the time it wasn't the circumstances of his birth or death that made him any special, it really was the message that anyone can be saved. I agree that gets lost on a lot of Christians today, so whats so wrong about HP focusing on turning the other cheek?

In your country, maybe, but in plenty of other places its not and I still don't understand why we must jump on HP and say the whole fucking thing doesn't work because your country is currently overrun by fanatics. Christianity can totally behave itself and Christians can be civilized intelligent people, I swear, it happens, I can't tell you why America is so far behind in social issues, I'm out of answers there, it may be extreme Christianity alone, or the political motivations behind it, I can't tell you why that flies down there and it doesn't up here. But its not inherent to crazy liberal commie Christianity, or moderate Christianity as we would call it here, I hear that Obama guy is actually a Christian and he seems pretty mellow about it.

Oh I get it now. You're arguing against a statement that I didn't make. I'm not saying "all Christians are assholes/fanatics", nor am I really taking issue with HP's personal religious choice. I questioned him because he made a statement that was illogical. He stated that "Too many cooks spoil the broth" and "he followed Jesus and just Jesus". When the Gospels he's basing that belief on weren't written by Jesus and had multiple Authors. I think that's silly, but not dangerous.

Honestly, if more people believed as HP does then I wouldn't have so much of a problem with Christianity. My problem is that the scripture itself does not jive with HP's beliefs. Parts of it due, but huge chunks do not, and guess what? It's all cannon.

I have a similar problem with Islam, and even certain aspects of Buddhism (I just haven't gone after them because Islam is getting enough western hate lately, and my gripes with Buddhism are minor and the religion as a whole is not nearly politically relevant enough to cause a serious problem.

Buddhists and Arabs aren't going to try to make sure my kids learn that the earth was created in six days, or make sure that my friends can never marry, or kick honest, competent, volenteers out of my military during war time. Ya dig?

Basically I'm not talking about Christianity as a philosophy, I'm talking about it's political ramifications.
I'm not a biblical scholar, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that interpretation, however even if you are correct, that is not the normative view of Christian salvation, and as I am talking about this in a political sense it's the normative interpretation that I have a problem with.

Layton didn't say that the bibles message of Hate and violence is just as strong as it's message of peace and love. I am saying that.


Hate to say it Saya, but neither your country, nor any others you could name are nearly as politically relevant at this time as the United States of America. Obama is great as a leader, but guess what? The fanatics have further stirred up their fanatic Christian base, and are fighting tooth and nail to kick him out in favor of Sarah Palin or Mike Huckabee, or some other person who does believe in the literal truth of the bible. We have nuclear weapons. Ahmadinejad is seeking Nuclear weapons. This fanaticism could kill us all, and these holy books, encourage it. They have some nice messages too, but the price of keeping them around could be nuclear annihilation, or World War 3.

Quite frankly a huge part of the problem is that not enough people, out of politness and respect for "moderates", have neglected to stand up and say: "Yes these books say some nice things, but they also have some terrible things, and some silly things, and we need to stop basing our lives on them."

Really? You don't hear about many adherents to Hellenism anymore, or people who worship the Norse pantheon. I think if society keeps progressing, then the modern religions will go the way that those have. There will always be people who are inclined towards superstition, but religion as such will be irrelevant.

I would love it if the rest of the world were like Japan, which has religion but on the whole lacks religiosity.

I'm sure there's some asshole out there still pouring out libations for Posiedon.

I'm also sure that this particular asshole's belief in his Earth-Shaker/Widow-Maker Ocean God has absolutely zero effect on his country's policy descisions.

This is how Christianity needs to be.

Religion is a very personal thing.

The authentic epiphany of jin.
 

Well said, Jin. So well said. You've brought so much to the table in this intriguing discussion. In fact you are indeed the most enlightened out of all us clowns, christian or atheist or just confused as you are.

(Serious side note):
So I've been reading through this thread and while reading somehow managed to sing/play a song with EVERYTHING above as lyrics. Fuckin' ROCKSTAR STATUS.

How is that illogical? Buddhist follow Buddha but there's many contradictory accounts of what he said. He said some things I resent. Many Buddhists have spoiled the broth and there are many many many Buddhists who would argue with anyone who thinks that Buddha got some things wrong. Go on eSangha and deny reincarnation, you'll get banned. Buddha did say that you shouldn't believe what he said just because he said it, but the Dalai Lama preaches to take his word for it, and some sutras will refer to themselves as THE ONLY TRUTH. Soka Gakkai denounces all other denominations. But most of us can agree on the gist of what he said and thats the essence of his teachings.

Depends on who you talk to. Christians who recognize that the Bible has been severely edited, written by many authors, have to really study the text and try to glean truth from it. Not far at all from what other people of many other faiths do.

Thats a personal gripe. I don't need to point out whats being done in Islam's name in other countries, Buddhism as an institution has been misogynistic since its birth, Confucianism even more so and reduced the status of women to that of property and animals, Buddhists and Taoists fought each other for many many years in China for political prestige, Hinduism reduced people to their caste, the Roman pagans buried Vestal Virgins alive if they dared to have sex, there are few major religions and philosophies that haven't caused others suffering, even in Buddhism which you would think would be against the whole thing, and should be, just like if you follow Jesus they should really be against what the Church does in some places now. I think parts of the Bible are despicable but I can find anything like that in a lot of faiths, with different ramifications for different people.

But if faith is personal, why should HP or any other real moderates have to answer for that?
Hate to say it dude, but its not religion that its entirely to blame for that. A big big problem is America's nationalism. And I hate to rain on America's parade but I don't think you're going to be the world's superpower for much longer. China is becoming more and more relevant and if and when they call you guys on your debt, you're kinda fucked.

And dude, Pakistan has nukes. India has nukes. Israel has nukes. There's countries more religiously frenzied who have nukes and while alarming, nothing's happened yet.

I'm not saying its a concern, I've said many times Palin scares the shit out of me, and fanaticism should be battled. But thats the thing, fanaticism is the enemy, not religion as a whole.

I hear that a lot from Americans, although I can't recall someone in power actually saying it. Many Christians would agree not to shove it down anyone's throats and make people live their lives based on their personal beliefs. I'm not really sure how to define the problem exactly. Atheism is as popular as it ever was, but religious frenzy is at a height. Why is it? Maybe the religious fanatics down feel like they are in an anomie state. They're losing power and are desperate to rule over people's lives completely again. I think it has just as much to do with being power hungry as it does with religion. I don't mean to sound anti-American by any means but its such a strange country, its immensely multicultural and has brought about a lot of change in the world but as soon as things change for the majority, be it for religious or nationalistic purpose, the religious right frenzies and plays on people's fears. Its always been a tug of war between those who want rights and true freedom and those who want to keep everything in a 1950s state. I think religion does play a huge factor but its not by any means the only one, there are many ideologies that you're fighting. Nationalism, functionalism and xenophobia are just as present there and not everything can be traced back to religion, such as the aversion to helping your fellow man and having a two tier healthcare system. They try to use religion I think to justify that but there's a weak leg to stand on if there ever was, normally they just say its against the american way and socialist are evil, in true Cold War mentality fashion. Dr. Jesus didn't hand out any bills.

Neopaganism, dude! And Christianity borrowed A LOT from pagans, Christmas and Easter being obvious but if I'm not mistaken the idea of hell is Greek in origin. Even with defunct religions you can see where they have greatly influenced other religions that exist to this day. And while the religion changes, religion itself will never go away.

And Japan had its huge problems with religion too, State Shinto was a factor in whipping up nationalism, as according to its teachings the Emperor was a god incarnate, and I think was banned after World War 2. Its a wonderful thing yes, but the reasons behind it aren't exactly wonderful.

Nationalism, functionalism, and xenophobia may be entirely divorced from religion, but almost MORE times than not, it's the religion that augments these anti-social behaviors so that it looks less ugly. All of a sudden, you're not a demented asshole for shits and giggles, you have an excuse, a holy one. A pardon from the one most high.

Why not just plain old take the bible in its entirety, put the goods of it in a vacuum, use that, and discard all the rest? You know why? Because even moderates would FEEL to some degree, that editing the bible to that state would be too presumptuous at changing THE WORD OF GOD.

I don't think that fanaticism can be easily battled with a perfectly opposing force. If you're going to be a moderate Christian or moderate anything, then really, you of all people have a DUTY to curbing the blood thirsty barbarians from retarding our society back to caveman behavior. Essentially, if a militant Atheist actually preached killing the religious, I would speak up against it to the point that it turned them into nothing more than a silly joke. It is almost an obligation for the decent moderates to keep their views from being used as a god damned weapon. You want to be a good, moderate theist? So be it. Take your religion back from the clutches of evil fucks.

Maybe this has already been done in places of the world, but it hasn't been done in America. Christianity, in the state that it is in within this country IS potentially dangerous. It permeates our social policies, it is constantly trying to be put into our courts, our money, our laws and sadly enough, it succeeds. It motivates policies that aren't reasonable, but divine. Honestly, without religion backing it up, what does the religious right have to stand on?

I'm not saying that religion is the entirety of the evils that are done in this country, but I'm willing to bet that a shit load of it is because it is in our policies or it augments non-religious bullshit such as "It's totally AMERICAN to be Christian".

First, are you trying to get me to go trawl some Buddhists? That's a possibility. Maybe I'll break out my lighter fluid and a biography of Mao for the lulz.

Second: You seriously don't see what's illogical about saying "too many cooks spoil the broth, I just follow the words of this one guy" and then base everything you know on that one guy on a bunch of contradictory accounts of his life by multiple third-party authors?

Really Say? Really?

Yeah, and there's a columnist on examiner who uses her three degrees to interpolate the Twilight saga. What's your point?

I'm not currently arguing against any of those beliefs, because none of them are very likely to start oppressing me anytime soon. The second Confucious comes over here and bans sporks, trust me, he shall feel the full brunt of my wrath.

Because whether they want to or not, the billions of moderate, lay-Christians give social credence to the millions of radical Christians, and besides, everyone needs to be made to answer for their beliefs.

We're losing power and influence, but we're still going to be on top/up there for another 50-150 years. Plenty of time to reduce the planet to glass.

I'm tempted to say: "well then everything's just peachy keen and we should all stop complaining." but that wouldn't be entirely fair. See below.

But religion encourages fanaticism. It's right there in the text, for everyone to see:

The book is FULL of that shit.

It's GREAT that some people have the sense to realize that stuff like that is bullshit, and cherry pick the scripture, but even the cherry-pickers are basing their lives on a book that tells them to stone the gays.

WHY?

You can have ALL of Jesus's teachings WITHOUT Jesus, and they will be better for it. They be better teachings because instead of being based on Divine Command they are based on honest reason, compassion, and social consensus. They will be good teachings because they are the socially responsible, human thing to do...not because his his dad is going to come along and kick your ass if you don't follow them.

You can have all that hippy-dippy-turn-the-other-cheek-brotherhood-kumbiah bullshit and you can throw out the barbaric, ludicrous stories because you don't need the divine mandate to back them up.


So why keep around these books, who's words and chapters encourage and bolster fanaticism, nationalism, and xenophobia? Why continue to attach belief to a contradictory jumble of texts written by pissed-off desert nomads? Why keep around books that demand their readers abandon their reason and blindly submit their lives to a grand authority figure?

It makes no sense.

I'm sure Zeus had some terrific teachings too, but we* don't make burnt offerings to him anymore. We read his holy words as literature and laugh at silly stories. We need to do that with Christ and Muhammed, Yahweh and Allah. Until we, as a society do that, the fanatics will be bolstered by the moderates quiet acceptance of their fucktardedly stupid belief structure. They will continue to try to oppress us and anyone else (including the "moderates) who doesn't embrace their values. They can't be reasoned with, they won't stop, and we can't kill them legally. Therefore we need to stand up, as a society, and make their values irrelevant. We need to do this with our words, with our votes, and with the way we live our lives. Reasonable people need to go on the attack - So stop blunting our collective voices with your wishy-washy devil's advocate defense, it's doing everyone a disservice.

*"We" in this sense, does not include fat, basement dwelling retards performing 50 year old candle ceremonies in order to feel sexy. As per my post about the asshole pouring libations to the Sea-God, they aren't a threat to anything but a bag of combos.

tencharacters.

What's bothering me here is that the point of the thread initially is why believe in such a contradictory account. Why take advice from it. Why assign it higher value than other texts.

Now you guys are arguing about the real world outcome of Christianity.

That's all well, but are you implying then that if there was only one person who believed in the bible as literal truth and had little to no political power, affecting society only minimally, you would be OK with the inherent contradictions?

You guys spent a page and a half talking about a red herring, because the conversation didn't actually evolve; you just switched the subject and I still want to see the original one resolved.

Because the contradictions that were pointed out specifically about what Jesus said was either not in context, and makes way more sense therein, or are completely up to interpretation, requiring study and debate or don't really matter in the long run. Does the fact that the disciples went to Jerusalem or Galilee to see him after his resurrection completely invalidate the principle of turning the other cheek? Small details get muddled up the longer you wait to write things down. Does it matter if Buddha saw the morning star or not?


That there are many Christians, some known as theologists, who really try to glean what they can from the text, like everyone else with a religion that has a sacred text.

How? There's a million years between a staunch Catholic and a Universal Unitarian, I don't see how the UU's are answerable for the Pope being a dickhead. Same with Muslims, I'm not going to harass my Sufi neighbour because some mass murdering fuckhead in the middle east wants to kill Westerners.

I'm guessing ten or twenty before the rest of the world moves on and China gets comfy in the superpower seat, but its all speculation. Could happen tomorrow, could happen never. I'm quite frankly expecting to live to see it happen.

According to very old religious laws, the same that Jesus tend to break. If you follow the lines that Jesus was right, "he who without sin cast the first stone." He broke that line of thinking. It makes perfect sense for cherry-pickers to just view it as a barbaric ancient law for a people who existed thousands of years ago.

I'd argue that many people need philosophies as a guidance. If it comes from Jesus, Confucius or Plato, what do I care, as long as they are being good? How can I say its wrong, if it inspires them to be better people? I think I'd still be a good person if I wasn't a Buddhist, but I would not be the person I am now, and I'm not sure if I'd be as good as a person or nearly as open minded as I am. Its not a crutch, but the lives, wisdom and teachings of other Buddhists certainly inspire me, as do other people in other religions. But its a hard thing to explain because its so extremely personal, I can't describe what religious experience feels like. And I suspect that other practitioner would argue the same thing. You can study all you want about other religions, but a practitioner of that religion is going to have a far more intimate knowledge of what they follow than you ever can. You can point out inconsistencies in a text, but when faith isn't reliant on a book, is beyond words, you can't break that kind of faith. And if they're not bothering anyone, there's absolutely no point in trying to.

Mostly this can apply to what I wrote above, the value of religion is too personal for you to vote the church away or shame practitioners. And its not necessary. Every single industrial country has religion, what makes America so fanatical? Is it really religion alone? Why can the rest of us live in relative peace with each other, and you can't? "America is the most important country" isn't an answer to this, although the belief that its the leader of the free world does help fuel the American fanatic's zealotry. Again, I'm all for calling out the fanatics, its saying that absolutely everyone must abandon their faith because Jesus could have appeared in Jerusalem or Galilee is absolutely and utterly futile and pointless, not to mention burning a lot of bridges. HP and others like him are on your side, why distance yourself?

Because the answer to "why take advice from it." is cherry-picking, and then it got on to whether that is or isn't valid. And then it went on to why Christianity is ebil and needs to be eliminated, apparently.

The contradictions themselves? No, other than maybe have a friendly debate with a practitioner I wouldn't really give two flying fucks. That and there's a mountain of them that need to be picked through, I know there's a lot of genuine ones but quite a few have pretty valid answers for, or are taken out of context, or up for interpretation. Not really willing to get my Bible study hedge clippers out for Gnet in any case, you'd have to pay me for that kid of work.

This. Despanan, you're hacking at the branches. Religion isn't the root of human stupidity. Human stupidity is the root of religion.
History has shown that people, when seeking justification for a dangerous or bigoted idea, can and will twist any canon, creed, or concept to suit their ends. Consider Social Darwinism. Consider the implementation of anti-capitalist theory or Aristotle's Politics in defense of slavery. The distinction you draw between extremist and fundamentalist Christianity is merely one manifestation of gulf between two different orders of human fatuousness.
At high ebb, human stupidity is "Greece and Rome, whose cultures were the most magnificent ever to bloom on this earth, were slave societies", "Caucasians mated with Neanderthal, while blacks did not, thus accounting for the genetic superiority of the former race", and "The Bible is absolutely, literally true".
At moderate ebb, human stupidity is "Shakespeare, Goethe, and Cicero all hailed from western countries", "I see these IQ tests and blacks score lower, there's simply no other way to explain it" and "Christianity provides moral fiber, and I would prefer that the president be Christian."
At low ebb, human stupidity is "The Founders were brilliant men, we should always consider their wisdom", "An unregulated free market reflects survival of the fittest, the law of nature", and "this Jesus guy had some good ideas, I think his insight was divine".
All they all stupid? Indubitably. Are they all equatable? Certainly not. Moderate stupidity condemns superlative stupidity, albeit not so harshly as does minimal stupidity or actual mental agility. George Bush didn't come close enough to steal the 2000 election primarily due to the support of Moderate Christians, he has myriad forms of excessive stupidity to thank. Your target shouldn't be everyone who finds something he or she likes in the Bible-- it should be everyone who, for whatever reason, is so dangerously stupid. 'Just following' Jesus really isn't too different from 'just following' Socrates-- they're both apparently gentle, wise men whose words are communicated to us solely through the writings of others. The only fallacy is the assumption that Jesus is divine, which is a totally different conversation. Of course, I won't discourage any atheist from explaining why religion is illogical, but given the political dimension of this discussion, I think Saya's point is an important one. People have posted some incorrect things about the demographics of atheism-- we are one of America's fastest growing minorities, and our visibility is rapidly increasing. Given that, I think levying the responsibility for George Bush on Humane Pain, who probably didn't vote for him, simply because they both believe in Jesus, is strategically unsound, and reconciles rather poorly with our self-image as men who honor reason above all.

Wow. I was disturbed that work obligations delayed my returning to Gnet thinking this thread would be pushed back below The Beer Thread or some such from my delayed post, and find myself once again amazed and impressed by the intellect demonstrated here!

Now I am glad I was delayed, I would have dumbed down the conversation.
Gnet so totally rules.

I will not try to respond to each of the bullet points made in the back and forth, especially since my debating skills are nowhere near the caliber of you folks. But I will explain my reasoning behind following Jesus, because believe it or not, I reasoned my way to Him. I had abandoned blind faith in Christianity when my sister died, and learned then the harsh (but true) reality of life and death. I wiped the "spiritual slate" clean and started exploring life all over again, breaking free of Catholic dogma.

As I watched life and observed patterns of behavior, especially behavior in dealing with personal crisis and challenge, I watched what worked (faith, courage, family support, support of friends) and what didn't (alcohol, drugs, workaholism).

I also observed "karma" or whatever you wish to call it: that what went around came around. The best way to avoid the negative and reap the maximum positive benefit was to love one's neighbors, to serve society. And to forgive minor infractions against myself. The forgiveness and love of fellow man echoed Jesus' philosophy (or commands).

So in the end I came full circle back to Christianity, but this time with verified, empirical results, not blind loyalty. I follow Jesus because it works for me socially and psychologically better than trying to navigate on my own.

Now had I been gifted with the intellect of those I see demonstrated with skill here in the thread, I might have made it on my own, I freely admit it.
But there is a wide distribution of intellect and even common sense in humanity and so for those of us less gifted there are certainly worse people we could choose to follow besides Jesus (and some do! L. Ron Hubbard anyone?)

When faith provides strength and peace during hard times in people's lives, it is a blessing, but when people fall back on it to fill the sense of belonging to something important (Crusades, elections) or to vent frustration and anger it is a curse.

I do not try to live as an example to other Christians, (no one would follow me I am sure!) but I do wish others would see Christianity as I do: a guide to living and not an end all-be all.

So back to the original thread: I hope my diatribe above helps set the context for why I accept the imperfections of my faith. I am not looking for perfection. I am looking for a way to navigate life with a well proven formula that has demonstrated success for others. The payoff is many times worth the imperfections and contradictions. Yes, there are times when it fails to answer important questions ("Why do the innocent die?") but other times it provides great comfort and solace, and great encouragement and joy.

Plus there is the Christmas presents!