The Latin Language-it's not dead, it's undead!
 

I don't see why people say that Latin is boring and a dead language. Seeing as most of the English language evolved from Latin it can help also with understanding the English language. Also, on beautiful old monuments and chapels, especially in Italy, there are almost always Latin inscriptions, there's always a warm and fuzzy feeling when you are able to translate them. Even some metal bands use some Latin in a few songs.
So, does anyone else here have the pleasure of learning the delightifully undead language known as Latin?

If you want to learn Latin, I recommend the Cambridge Latin Course books first. There's mostly made up of humorous stories that you translate with grammar pages scattered throughout and in the back. There's even a Latin-English dictionary with the words used in the book.
I'm using them for school, we're now up to the 4th one. Sadly, I'm not doing as well this year but I'm working on regarding former glory :)

Sorry about the typing error. Instead of 'regarding' I meant 'regaining'
Ah well, everyone makes mistakes.

Who doesn't love Latin? It can make anything sound grand and important. I learned a lot of it when I used to read Asterix books as a kid :) and some from my father, who studied it since it was a compulsory subject in schools here until the 50s.

Some of my favourite phrases are "Lux Aeternum", "Alae Jacta Est", and
and "Diabolus fecit, ut id facerem!"

I speak Japanese, German, Irish...I'd like to know more Latin, but I am going to focus on modern "romance" languages for now.

well, in holland it is compulsory to take English (till your finals), german and french. even if you want to take the sience road through school.

personaly I was fluid in german speaking, still am in reading. I dropped french after three years, but I will survive in france with a basic understanding of the language, though I'm not comfortable speaking it.

latin and greek is only compulsory in the highest education level, starting in the first grade of high school, till the 3rd, then it becomes optional. Most people don't take it.

I would like to learn some latin, and if I find the time I might read some textbooks.

Whatever connotations Latin has for people, it's called a 'dead' language for specific reasons, namely the fact that no living culture uses it anymore. Language is constantly evolving, new words and new meanings for old words and slang and all that going on... the fact that Latin isn't being truly spoken anymore is the reason it has that label.

I had Latin in school for 8 years...started when I was ten.....old greek for 4 years....

Learning Latin DOES make sense, and I'm not saying that, because I still need it for my archaeology studies, it also helps when learning new languages...I think that's because I've never had to study grammar that hard and consequently as I had to for my Latin exams ;-)

Besides that, our Latin teacher gave us a good general overview about the ancient world. We studied Latin law, which is still a basic of which many systems of law developed.
Both in old Greek and Latin we translated philosphical, historical, and other literal sources, which is something, I don't want to miss. I think I have learned a lot in my Latin and Greek classes, and I think it is sad that the old languages, and humanities in general, are more and more vanishing from the scholar system.

I have a latin class at school and I agree with you 100%. Not only can latin help us understand english and other languages but it may also help us understand what a demonically possesed person in a horror movie like the Exorcism of Emily Rose is saying. So yes. It is undead.

I also love how in the future, everyone seems to know Latin. One example which jumps out at me is in the movie Event Horizon, where in the course of trying to salvage a space ship that's going to get sucked into the gravitational pull of Uranus the crew discover a recording where some guy is yelling in Latin, and of course one of the salvage crew just happens to know a little Latin himself... what the hell?

Latin is a powerful langauge, rooted in the timelessness of history. In my view, that is rather cool. I would like to learn it and I am not so certain that studying Latin is as ominous as everyone I've met seems to contend.

I find the phrase 'the timelessness of history' to be something of a kung-an just now, so thanks for that!

I'd rather buck the trends and learn something like Sanskrit or Greek. Frankly, I don't see anything the Romans produced that the Indians or Greeks didn't have better ideas about, except maybe warfare.

Well by combining classiac languages and cultural values of the people who spoke the language, like modern English, french and german teachers try, one creates an understanding about the roots of our modern society. Having sead that, history proves not all their ideas where right. Studying history and understanding these factors is just as importent.

So history and the classical languages are comlimentary to each other. Latin or greek without classes in history makes no sense. So only those who seek explanations in the past might need latin and greek.

darkmartin I need an avatar. Where did you get that?

thanks, here is the link to the thread (although I used the old one). All will be explained

https://www.gothic.net/boards/showth...ight=southpark

I absolutely love Latin. It is such an elegant and decadent language from which an enormous part of modern English is composed. One of my favorite quotes is "Tu Fui, Ego Eris", or "What you are, I was. What I am, you will become".

Reminds me of a story. On another message board, a guy mistakenly thought I knew Latin, simply because I knew a few phrases. He said he wanted to write something funny but all he knew was e pluribus unim, and it was latin, but it wasn't funny.

I said, so is coitus interruptus, and that wasn't funny either.

He put me on his ignore list.

Here's a dumb thought......

If Latin is a dead language because no living culture uses it, and the Vatican (Roman Catholic Church) uses Latin for all its' stuff, does that mean Vatican priests are the "undead"?

No offense intended to any Catholics, devout or otherwise...... but wouldn't that make a great 'B' horror movie?

The Sounds of Klingon
The sounds of Klingon individually occur in existing Terran languages, but no single language uses the entire collection. Paramount wanted the language to be gutteral and harsh, and Okrand wanted it to be unusual, so he selected sounds that combined in ways not typically found in other languages (e.g. a retroflex D and a dental t, but no retroflex T or dental d). Here's a description of the sounds of Klingon, and the way they're written in the standard Okrand writing-system (see another page for a discussion of another writing system). You can also find out about some everyday phrases in Klingon.

Note that some of the sounds of Klingon are represented by more than one letter of English. You should think of these combinations as single letters, since they represent single, simple sounds in Klingon. So a Klingon ng is not an n followed by g (Klingon has no g anyway!); it's a simple sound on its own.

You'll also find that the orthography of Klingon uses capital and lowercase letters a little differently from the way you're used to. Mostly, capital letters are used to help remind you that a letter sounds different in Klingon than it does in English. Be careful when writing Klingon to use the correct capitalization (i.e., the capitalization appropriate for the sound; do not capitalize the first letter of your sentences in Klingon), since otherwise it's hard for people used to the language to read it. Be especially careful with q and Q, since these represent different sounds in Klingon (confusing them would be like confusing "f" and "g" and English). Also be careful with the letter ', the apostrophe. It may not look like much to English-accustomed eyes, but in Klingon it's a full-fledged letter. Omitting it would be like deciding it's not important to type "t"'s in English anymore.

When speaking Klingon, be sure to speak forcefully. Some of the sounds may make the person you're talking to a little wet. This is correct and to be expected.

If your machine can produce sounds, select the letters showing how the sound is written to hear a sample pronunciation (by Mark Shoulson). Vowels are demonstrated with the consonant "b" on either side of them, so the example for the Klingon a will sound like someone saying bab. Consonants are demonstrated at the beginning of a syllable, between syllables, and at the end of a syllable, using the vowel a. So the example for the Klingon ch will sound like someone saying chachach (see? The sound ch at the beginning, between two vowels, and at the end).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

a
[a] Like the "a" sound in English "father." Never like in "acid" (American pronunciation).
b
[b] Like in English "bob" or "playbill."
ch
[ʧ] Like in English "chew" or "chocolate."
D
[ɖ] Not quite like the English "d" sound. Touch the tip of your tongue to the very top of your mouth, the highest point on your palate, instead of near the teeth like for an English "d." Then do the same thing you'd do to make a "d."
e
[ɛ] Like the "e" in English "bed."
gh
[ɣ] A gargled sound, at the back of the throat. Like the Klingon H, only voiced. It's very much like the French gargled "r."
H
[x] A harsh sound in the throat, found in German (as in "Bach") or the Hebrew toast "l'chayim." Make sure you pronounce this harshly and unvoiced.
I
[ɪ] Like the "i" sound in English "bit."
j
[ʤ] Like the "j" in English "junk." Never like in French "jour."
l
[l] Like in English "lunch."
m
[m] Like in English "mother."
n
[n] Like in English "nose" or "any."
ng
[ŋ] The same sound as occurs at the end of English "thing," only in Klingon it can also come at the beginnings of words. Be careful when starting a word or syllable with this sound. It's against the rules of English, and it may take some practice.
o
[o] Like in English "note" or "mosaic." As with other letters, don't get distracted by English words spelled with the same letters. The Klingon word not sounds like English "note," not like "not" (which in Klingon lettering would be spelled nat).
p
[pʰ] Like in English "pipe" or "pop." Pronounce it with a puff of air.
q
[q] A little like English "k," but not really. This sound is to be made as far back in your mouth as possible, with the back of your tongue actually touching your uvula (the fleshy blob that hangs down over your throat). It sounds a little like you're choking.
Q
[qχ] A little like a Klingon q immediately followed by a Klingon H. Close off your mouth as far back as you can, like with q, and force air up, like you're trying to dislodge food stuck in your throat. It sounds a lot like you're choking.
r
[r] A lightly trilled or rolled "r." If you can't trill with the tip of your tongue, just do a flap (or even a regular English r will be understood), but don't gargle the "r," or it'll sound like a gh. Note that your friendly sound-pronouncer for these pages does a rotten job of rolling r's. Don't let that stop you from doing it right, nor should you worry about not doing it perfectly. Notably, Marc Okrand, the creator of the language, doesn't roll his r's consistently on the audio tapes he made. Also, be careful not to let the r "overshadow" nearby vowels. Klingon syllables mIr, mer, mur sound approximately like English "mere, mare, moor"; none of them rhyme with English "fur".
S
[ʂ] A sound somewhat like an English "sh," but made farther back. Put your tongue where you did for the Klingon D, but don't quite touch the roof of your mouth. Make an "s" sound with your tongue up there.
t
[tʰ] Like English "t" in "tip." Pronounce it powerfully, with a puff of air.
tlh
[tˡɬ] This is a tough one to describe. Put your tongue in position to say a "t," but instead of pulling the tip of your tongue away from your palate, drop the sides, sort of like what happens near the end of the word "waddle" in English. This should leave you in position to say an "l," but make sure you don't use your voice: whisper the "l"; hiss it out between your teeth. The dropping of the sides of your tongue should be done forcefully; this is another spitter.
u
[u] Like in English "prune" or "fool."
v
[v] Like in English "vicious."
w
[w] Like in English "wisdom." Sometimes this sound will follow an a, an e, or an I, yielding:
aw, rhyming with English "cow."
ew, not like anything in English. Basically the "e" in "bed" run into a "w." A good way to get to this is to think of Elmer Fudd saying "tewwible."
Iw, also unlike anything in English. Again, it's like the "i" in "bit" run into a "w." It's close to "Eww!" the expression of disgust.
y
[j] Like in English "yet." This sound, like w, forms diphthongs:
ay, rhyming with English "why."
ey, rhyming with English "may" (Note: The Klingon word may, of course, sounds like English "my." See above).
Iy, rhyming with English "key."
oy, rhyming with English "boy."
uy, sort of like English "gooey," but not quite. It's one syllable, while "gooey" is two. Think of English "Do you" and drop off the last vowel sound.
'
[ʔ] A sound we use in English, but don't consider a sound. It's the catch in the throat we put in the beginnings of words that start with vowels, or in phrases like "uh-oh." In Klingon, it can also come at the ends of syllables, where it has to be pronounced carefully (e.g. the words tI and tI' have very different meanings). This one takes practice to get right in all positions.

Where did you find this, and exactly what does it have to do with Latin?

Should I be a little scared that anyone put this much thought into Klingon speak?

Sobeh, I'm giving you 5 brownie points for that post.

I was just about to say that, then read your post.

It's true, you cannot speak Latin fluently. There are far, far too many conjugations for the average human to be able to think and speak at a normal pace.

It's more likely that even the Romans themselves wrote it correctly, but spoke it in such a way that it's more like slang than anything.

That's true. The latin we see on tombs and such is Classical latin and differed totally from the spoken language of the Romans.
The diglossia of latin consisited of Vulgar Latin, which was the spoken version, and deviated from Classical Latin in terms of grammar and vocalization. Classical Latin remained in the domain of literature as a ritualistic and turgid language.

Because no slang or spoken or evolving latin is involved the language as a living breathing changing thing, is dead.

What the hell was with the Klingon post? Someone actually admits to and is proud enough to post they've spent countless worthless hours studying the language of a fabricated culture?

Yeah.. that's great.

Hey, he's a nerd.






I wanna be his friend! But my friend, you definitely are in the wrong place. I don't understand why he signed up here. It took a sign-up page and a confirmation e-mail. You'd think he'd notice...

I just wanted to say that I used one of those in 8th grade and I still remember it especialy the fact that half of the book was stories about the cook wanting to bang the slave girl.

Latin may be a "dead" language... but don't tell that to my Latin teacher... the guy can speak it very well... and he insists that whenever possible his students speak it too... since it's for a grade, I'm pretty cool with that... anyways, bibamus, moriendum est!

I don't seem to be doing as well in Latin this year as I did the last 2 years (nearly topped the class I did)
Because of the fact that Latin is not spoken anymore, it does seem that it is one of the harder 'languages' to learn. Italian is easy enough because the whole of Italy (obviously) speaks Italian, but you'll rarely see anyone speaking Latin (it would be rather amusing if someone did).
We're having a Latin performance for assembly next week. I get to be Mercury, god of holy ancient postal service (as I like to say)^^

well most people dont learn spoken latin, its similar to learning attic greek or homeric greek, you learn it as a written language.

I agree, it isn't about speaking at all. It is about gaining the ability to translate ancient texts.

As a spoken language,it is certainly dead, yet the text written in Latin and Greek are still of interest, and I prefer to translate them myself rather than rely on translations given by other. Many translated editions are quoite old, and in oreder to achieve the poetic effect of hexameters etc., not entirely correct in their meaning.

As I've mentioned before, Latin, Greek, and all other old/dead languages remain useful not only for those who are interested in history, but also philosophy, religions, law, arts history etc...

Latin and ancient Greek are also useful for many scientific disiplines, it certainly helps to understand the meaning of scientific terms as many of them origin in either ancient Greek or Latin. If you want to study medicine, law or a modern language in Austria for instance, you need the Latinum. Not without reason.

I had Latin for one year in high school. I forgot most of it by now, since it was 15 years ago, but I remember that learning Latin was a great pleasure for the mind.

BlackOps, what does Mr Bump have to do with Latin? Please post that somewhere more suitable..

wtf? bump ftw fools.

I have always wanted to learn a little Latin. I am a huge ancient Rome nut, hence my longing.

Woah - that's a very concentrated sentence! How do all those tenses fit into four words?! *Deviant's brain implodes* :p

Latin fascinates me. I have a friend who knows it very well, it'd be cool to learn it and have long conversations by email in Latin with her! I plan on learning lots of languages, probably starting with French as I already know a little from school. Plus I gather learning French grammar is a doddle compared to learning Latin grammar! ;)

You are very right. I studied history, with history of art as one of my minor subjects, and because I focused on the medieval period every major document I worked with was in Latin. And not only the original text, but annotations from the modern editors, too. Latin was the first foreign language I learned at school and I had classes for five years (I also had French and English). It was all hard work and no fun until we knew enough to read the inscriptions on the tombstones of our local church - they were hilarious! I am grateful that I could learn it. As a lot of other people already said, knowing Latin is very useful if you want to learn French, Italian, Spanish or another related language. You also get a feel for the grammatical elements of your own language, at least that was how I felt. We also had rhetorics as part of our Latin lessons and learned to analyse political speeches. I would not want to miss knowing how to do that, either.

By the way, there is a society devoted to maintaining Latin as a spoken language ... they must be on the internet somewhere. I tried finding them, but failed. Judging from the impressive result list from google for "Latinum Vivum" a lot of people seem to be using Latin.

Well literally it is: You, I was. I, you will be.

The first (I) and second (You) person are already fit into the verb, and so is the time (as in, present time, future time etc...), that is what makes latin grammar so damn hard, but on the other hand you need very little words to say a lot of things...

My favorite latin quote is from Catullus: 'Vivemus atque amemus': 'Lets us live, and let us love.' It has been my motto for years now!

And of course the one in my signature: 'A wise man doesn't pee against the wind'. It's written on a building in Amsterdam.

With all due respect to your latin teacher, but since latin is a dead language, no one knows how to pronounce it properly, so what's the use of insisting the students to speak it...

No living culture ever did, actually.
Romans spoke common roman and a wide variety of regional dialects (to this day).
Latin was used for politics and law. It was a scholars' language at the time, used by specific classes of citizens for specific purposes, much like today.

can it be a dead language if it was never alive to begin with?

By the way its good to have you back mael

Funniest latin quote ever? "Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi"

Which is obviously nonesense (Because directly translated means "Always where, under where"), but sounds like "Always wear underwear" when spoken.

that was my Latin club's motto (yes I know we are a bunch of dorks)

That's very interesting. I didn't think the Romans would not have spoken Latin as we know it today. I wonder if the use of Latin as lingua franca in the Catholic church today and as a kind of medieval Esperanto counts? It was the language of politics, the church, students and universities, but people also wrote poetry and personal letters in it. That is not classic Latin, however - so probably, the Latin I learned at school always has been dead.
Somehow this thread reminds me of a part of Mussorgsky's 'Pictures at an Exhibition' - "Cum mortuis in lingua mortua." - "With the dead in a dead language".

I wonder if Latin will stay with us in the future - although it probably never was a living language, many people do use it even today.

Well it probably will always stay with us because plants, animals and especially every single body part has a latin name, so either we chose to rename it all, or we'll just use the latin words untill eternity...

But will people still know what the names mean? If not, I guess the names for body parts, animals etc. will one day be like 'secret magic words' of science ;)

Is it sad that I actually laughed at that?

When I actually go to church (which would be...rarely), I always love it when they have a song in latin... I'll be sitting there trying to figure out what it says, even if it has the English version right below it. Unfortunately, it's never anything more interesting than a lot of "Dominus" and "Sanctus" and the like. Heh.

I took a year of Latin back in highschool and loved it. I remember our text book was called "Ecce Romani." What kind of title is "Look, Romans!!!" besides a rather humorous one? Though, honestly, I know very little off the top of my head. I can usually do loose translations, but other than that? Not much else. I envy anyone who's semi-fluent.

Klingons are stupid.

I've studied Latin for six years in highschool and I do miss it now, I've already forgotten so much. Some of my friends study Latin on university-level and they learn so many interesting things, I'm jalous (although ancient Hebrew is pretty cool too, I'm learning that now).
My friends can actually speak Latin semi-fluently, it's not always grammatically correct, but they can understand each other. Until some years ago, university teachers gave their Latin lessons in Latin, and oral exams were in Latin too, but they don't do that anymore. Yesterday I went to one of my Latin-studying friends' birthday, and one of her classmates wrote a poem for her in Latin, and another one wrote a Greek poem for her, it's so cool when you can do that.
In Belgium there's a Latin-contest, where students from different highschools translate a text, and the best students win a price. My friend won the contest last year and she could go on a trip to Rome during a schoolweek, everybody envied her off course.

What are your favourite Latin writers? I'm especially fond of Catullus, his poems are naughty, funny and witty at the same time. Horatius has written some pretty cool stuff too, and I also enjoyed reading Plinius' text about the Vesuvius.

I think my favourite Latin writer is Ovidius Publius Naso. I like Horatius, too. Catull partly.
Marcus Aurelius' meditations.
And Plinius the Elder's Naturalis Historia.
...I better stop now.
:)