Atheism+
 

...Damnit.

Unbelievable. Just...

You know what this accomplished? It shed a very bright light on the sexism, patriarchal aplogism, and what-have-you that is RIFE in the recent atheist movements.

...Fuck.

It's not about atheism. It never was.

That's new to you?

No. I was always skeptical about "atheist" movements.

But from what I have seen, there's a LOT of people who like to consider that there's a such thing as an atheist community.

On one hand, you have those that say there is one and for that, you tend to see them view it as a movement; whatever the goal may be (doesn't make sense to me, really. Many atheists tend to strike me as white knights for religion and those are the ones who like to claim there is a community).

However; it's fucking WEIRD to see feminist and queer atheists insist that Atheism+ isn't a worthy movement because this movement is trying to "redefine" what an atheist is. THAT'S fucking weird.

But then you get the typical patriarchal apologisms as well.

Lots of atheists are saying this movement is divisive. I would argue it's not. At least not in the sense that they're thinking. It's divisive; not because they would lose atheist supporters for their ideas. They wont. It's just that those people didn't agree with feminism and queer struggles to begin with. They NEVER had an ally in the first place. I see it as divisive because I don't think atheism or atheists should make a claim that equality is atheist in nature. The conflicting conclusions and hypothesis' on a god are from what I can understand, irreconcilable.

This SHOULD happen for atheism, but not only that; there has to be outreach with theistic feminist comrades and I just don't see that happening very soon if you're going to at one point tell them they're right about social inequalities but wrong about the idea of a god.

I think the thing that interests me about it is not so much what obviously happened, but the third side that wants to keep atheism separate from other social movements. Many say they are an atheist AND a feminist, but refuse to endorse A+ because of this misconception that A+ is trying to make it about non-belief or plant their flag on feminism.

To me, A+ is needed and important, but also; they're going to have to confront the issues that feminism and queer struggles aren't exclusive to non-belief and I really don't know how they're going to reconcile that without just basically being Secular Humanist with another name.

Holy shit. The hostility and apologetics for male privilege is fucking RIFE right now with these knuckleheads.

NO WONDER females felt it was necessary to start Atheism+.

Oh my god...

Fucking men's rights idiots.

I'm afraid to ask.

It really kills me when you have a group who speaks out about social justice but at the same time doesn't recognize the shit that's fucked up within their own community.

I can't help but think they should know better.

Like the influential feminist who is also transphobic or racist.

This is why I can't have heros.

After Elevatorgate I don't find it surprising at all, is what I'm saying.

I don't think they're going to have much success within an atheist movement because as you said, "atheism" is not a unified movement to begin with. Its not like feminism which has variety but has some kind of definition (a movement to seek the abolition of sexism) that leaves some self proclaimed feminists like Sarah Palin out in the cold. But I don't know if you can do the same for an identity that pretty much simply requires one not to believe in God(s). With a definition that broad there's bound to be a lot of assholes and they're not going to be too happy about being branded Atheism*.

Elevatorgate?

So a guy tried to hook up with a someone, she didn't go for it, and it became A Thing?

:p: Nice shoes, wanna fuck?
:confused:: No
:p: OK bye

THE END

How scandalous.(?)

I am not saying that Watson doesn't have a right to be anything from flattered to offended by getting approached. Not attempting to take anything away from her or call her names or anything of the sort.

Why is this a thing for anyone else to care about? This seems like the kind of thing you complain to / laugh about with your friends over drinks the next day. Not something "gate" worthy...

And how the fuck do you know a fucking thing about sexism? What the fuck makes you think it's at all appropriate for you to say that people are over overreacting?

Please explain what was sexist about approaching a person, expressing interest, and leaving them alone when they declined.

also lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqU9J...layer_embedded

I gotta agree with Jonathan here until I actually see that video which I can't find.

Would you like to start with the part where somebody said they felt they were sexualized and subsequently was shouted down by fucking privileged Crack Von Patriarchs like you think what you have to say matters at all, or the part where you think you're entitled any sort of explanation when you can easily educate yourself?

You're killing my soul.

When you call me Cracker Von Patriarch, does that give me justification to feel that I am being sexually and racially discriminated against? It makes me feel really uncomfortable, so expect an outpouring of community backlash any day now. Once the White Knights figure out what direction to charge in there will be hell to pay.

He didn't say he liked me, although who knows. For what it's worth I wish the guy in the video focused more on the ridiculous community reaction than zeroing in on Watson herself, although the more I look into this the more fascinated I am by what a non-phenomena it was/is

No, you're right, Versus. I was thinking of the times I've been propositioned that made me uncomfortable to make a parallel, but as I think about them it's obvious they were the ones in the wrong for propositioning so casually with nothing to hint at them any form of reciprocity. It's not just an innocent question, it's a stupid one.
I still don't think it's a sexist thing, though; I'm sure it can and does happen among feminists because it's indecent, not imposing.

Ah. Elevatorgate.

So this girl was having drinks with friends until 4 AM and she gets in this elevator to go to bed. A man comes in and starts talking to her. During this time, he asks if she wants to "come to his room for some coffee".

The result was that she felt objectified and sexualized by the experience and apparently it drew a line in the sand.

Now the problem here is that we have just her account and I'm not sure as to what it actually was as far as tone, inflection, and the totality of the situation. I don't know. However; there's a good point here. Did she know this man AT ALL? I'm thinking she did not. Was she inebriated? Possibly so.

What this tells me is that the man probably saw her as an easy target.

The conversation had to have lasted no longer than a minute and a perfect stranger asks you if you want to fuck in such a round about way?

Yes. THAT IS sexualizing her. He had no business asking her that after a minute of conversation. Hell, he could have very much used a predatory tone. I'm not convinced that this situation was entirely an innocent mistake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SqC_m3yUDU

How does a person establish that they are open to reciprocate? Apparently you can't walk up and ask directly, so how does this work without somehow causing an awkward moment?

It's called social cues and chemistry.

Wouldn't asking if someone wants to come back to your room to have coffee be a manner to socially engage a person to elicit cues and gauge interest? A clumsy attempt perhaps, but... what was he supposed to do? Use a third party intermediary?

"Pardon me, but my friend over there - yes the one looking at his shoes so as to not offend, was wondering if perhaps he might be allowed to speak with you if it is ok I mean"

Jon.

Are you a creep or something?

Who asks such a banal question as that? Do you know nothing of communication and manners?

Why the hell would you think it was appropriate to try and solicit sex from a perfect stranger that you talked to for no more than 45 seconds? Are you dumb?

Stand the fuck by.

I highly doubt that it was an innocent mistake, but even if it was innocent people shouldn't react by saying that she is wrong or overreacting, they should be wondering what the fuck would make someone think that is a good way/time/location to approach a girl.

First off approaching someone as the very tail end of the night when they are going to their room is a bad move, the person is tired and they are not looking for companionship or else they would not have left the place with people to go to a place with no people. And god forbid she is drunk, that should be an automatic sign to not approach her, unfortunately lots of guys seem to think the exact opposite. In this situation she seems like an easy target and chances are that she knows predatory men will see her as such, therefore she is even more likely to react badly to any approach.

Also for fucks sake an elevator is a really scary place to be approached, I honestly don't know if it is possible for a guy to understand just how fucking terrifying that could be. You are trapped in a very small space with a man you do not know, even if you could get to the door you can't just open it to escape and nobody can get in to help you either until the thing comes to a stop on a floor and a hell of a lot can happen in the time it takes to travel one floor. Here is a newsflash for people who don't think that is a big deal: it really fucking is. Not because all men are rapists but the truth is that a large percentage of men actually are and an even higher percentage of men, men who would never even consider ****** a women, react really, really badly to being rejected. I don't mean that they get all whiny, I mean they will react with everything up to a full on verbal and physical assault.

To you it is just one woman overreacting to a guy hitting on her, but to me and to countless other women it is the essence of something that happens with terrifying regularity. Something that we alter our actions and our lives trying to diminish but that we know we will never be able to fully avoid.

SON OF A FUCK!

^^^^ Solumina x10000000000

What the hell kind of a question is that? I'm too damn shy to pull anything of the sort, so can we try to leave the personal insults to Versus? It's ok when he does it because he's cute but anyone else makes me feel icky.

The actual context of what happened was something like "Don't take this the wrong way but I find you very interesting and would like talk with you, would you like to come to my and have some coffee?"

So... he should have not approached unless there was some clear and yet apparently completely arbitrary indication that he was invited to speak?

This is pretty hilarious. How do you meet new people?

And you seem to have missed the point entirely. Don't approach someone in that situation. It is a bad fucking situation for an approach. I don't care how charming or good looking someone is if they talked to me in that situation, not even hit on me but just talked, I would squirm. It is that vulnerable of a situation. Anything more than a slight smile and maybe a head nod is just not a good idea unless the girl initiates the conversation (which women do when we want to talk to people and feel safe).

Now if the next morning I saw that same person while I was in the lobby of that same building and he started talking to me and asked me out I would be a hell of a lot more receptive because it is a safe environment. I wouldn't feel nearly so vulnerable so not only would it be more comfortable for me, you would actually get a more genuine reaction from me as I wouldn't be mostly calculating my risk and trying to find a way to flee without incurring your wrath.




In short environment and surroundings can mean everything.

I never said she was wrong to feel uncomfortable. It's totally her right to feel however she wanted to about it. I think the reactions were/are hilariously over the top.

She'd have been within rights to tell the guy to piss off. She doesn't owe him a conversation and I never suggested otherwise. I don't know if she was drunk, she didn't say she was, so we're left at pure conjecture and discussing alternate scenarios that didn't happen so what's the point?
Maybe he was really Spider Man and wanted to make sure she'd be ok? Or maybe, and this is a stretch, maybe he wanted to talk to her over coffee? We can assume negative things like he's a potential predator, but not give him the benefit of the doubt?

How was he supposed to know she was tired and didn't want to be approached? From the sounds of things people were coming and going at all hours. She left her friends still at the bar, so 4:00 AM might sound late to you or me but I'm not on Dublin time for the weekend so maybe its different what with time zones? Who the hell knows.

So the acceptable course of action was to wait for the next elevator? It could have been dangerous, sure, but it wasn't. So...

No, to me it is an internet community over-reacting to a guy hitting on someone. I've said multiple times she can feel anything she likes about the encounter - happy, sad, quixotic, chartreuse, whatever. I might not agree with her reaction, but I don't have to, do I? I never said she was a bad person for feeling whatever she might have felt or not felt. Her personal reaction is her own. I'll admit I think making a video blog about this awkward moment is a little weird, but she's got the right.

So you're going to minimize Versus like that? I can intimidate you with legitimate questions, but what? You think it's cute when Versus busts your balls? You really are a creep.

The fuck? Were you there? How the fuck does this make it any less significant? It was in an elevator at 4 in the morning, while she was possibly drunk, and she's even "politely" solicited for sexual relations? Holy shit. I think I understand why you probably don't get a lot of dates.

God damn. Creepy.

Boom, headshot. Men cannot initiate conversations. OK, I get it. Done.

Jon. Homework assignment.

http://www.microaggressions.com/

View this page. Read the statements.

Each item has been listed because the submitter feels attacked in some way. Your goal is to understand why they feel this way. Your goal is not to judge whether or not they are "wrong" to feel that way--put that thought out of your head entirely. Once you have done this, we can begin to have a conversation about why this Watergate was a problem.

Your own statements that she overreacted is already offensive. Do you understand why?

If you cannot determine that that context was completely tongue-in-cheek, then I don't know what to tell you.

No, I wasn't there. I watched her video where she describes the encounter, and transcribed from memory what she said. I'll take her account at face value until I have a reason not to.

She wasn't solicited for sex, politely or otherwise, she was solicited for coffee. I don't get a lot of dates because I fear inadvertently threatening someone by saying hello.

Whatever.

I will undertake this assigment when you can show where I said anywhere in this now page long drift that Watson was wrong to feel what she felt.

Your counter assigmnet is to reply here and either help me find where I wrote that, or admit that I didn't and you are making shit up about what I am saying groundlessly. Fair?

You can but I can't take that chance.

I don't have that luxury. 26% of women in the US will be sexually assaulted at least once before they even hit 18. I can't take the risk that someone I know nothing about is safe, hell I can't even take the risk that someone I see every day is safe. And to top it off if I do get assaulted chances are that society will blame me for getting myself in that situation.

Are you being purposefully dense? I explained why that was a bad place to initiate conversation and I gave an example of where you could initiate conversation. The fuck are you on about?

While we are talking can you stop acting like you are somehow a victim here? You act like us saying that you should not talk to a girl in that situation is somehow hurting you, your desire to talk to me should NEVER outweigh my right to feel safe.

Why do YOU think this is weird? Would it have been better for her to say nothing of the situation? Would you deem that far more appropriate because YOU can shrug off odd encounters far more easily than she can?

Did... did you just insult me and then tell me not to act like a victim?

It doesn't hurt me, I fully support your right to tell people to fuck off whether you are in an enclosed space at 4:00 am or in a bright sunny park full of laughing children.

Well when typical reactions to telling someone off, or even just saying as nicely as possible that I'm not interested can range from petty insults to getting my head shoved into the wall hard enough to give me a concussion I, and pretty much every single woman in the world, will continue to be really fucking pissed off by guys approaching us in unsafe situations and the people who think they have a right to make us feel unsafe just cuz they want to get to know us.

"The situation" was literally being asked for coffee after hitting the bar at a convention, and refusing. To even make this into some kind of controversial event we have to invent all kinds of salacious details like "what if she had been drunk!" - well, if she had been drunk, then it would have been an entirely different situation. I'm not talking about that hypothetical, I'm trying to wrap my brain around why this girl being asked for coffee and telling someone no is an event worthy of polarizing a community of atheists. It's fucking bizarre.

It isn't inappropriate of her to make youtube videos where she talks about her feelings and how she personally feels about being talked to in elevators.

I think it's weird to fixate on why it is totally unacceptable to speak to someone at a convention, where you ostensibly have some kind of common ground with your fellow attendees and speakers. Especially when "the situation" was defused by saying "no." Done, the end.

That is completely unacceptable and every human being should respect the wishes of a person who doesn't want to engage with them. If you don't want to talk then they should leave it at that and leave you in peace.

Because his wall of male privilege tells him that men are entitled to approach women. Point blank, that's all it is. He was told that Watson isn't overreacting and that her reaction should be respected... that in fact, it IS a big deal. He was even told why her reaction wasn't over the top by an actual woman who was able to share a perspective that I fucking know that nobody else here thought of, and he's still too cracker von patriarch to think about what **** culture means.

There you go. Instead of trying to understand WHY this situation bothered her; you're insisting that she is somehow wrong by misunderstanding her own situation.

You minimize her message by insisting that she's overreacting. She wasn't overreacting. YOU don't experience the same dangers that she does. YOU are not a woman.

Accept that they usually don't leave you in peace, and what people should do is the exact opposite of what they really do. It's bullshit to put women into a situation where they have to feel threatened regardless if you are innocent in your intentions or not. Women the world over recognize this because it's very real. Your argument of common sense is based on your experience with this as an academic discourse. In short, it's not real to you and your opinion doesn't amount for shit. You're just being too much of a chode to realize it.

Correction to my last: All after you're just being a too much of a chode should read as you just are too much of a chode.

The thing that made me turn around is realizing that the problem is not so much that the guy asked her if she wanted to go 'for some coffee' but rather that so many people would later tell her she's overreacting to what she felt that night.

I've done something similar to this guy twice in my life. Twice because I was drunk. The correct response to yourself should be "wow, what a big damn casanova I was yesterday, I feel like a dick." It shouldn't be a response to her in the manner of 'hey weren't you the girl that got pissed because I wanted to pork her? Chill the fuck out, it was just a drunken incident."

The situation bothered her because someone talked to her in a time and place that she didn't want to be talked to.

There are really only two reasonable interpretations - the guy literally just wanted coffee with her, or was using coffee as a pretext for sex. Please fucking note I said both interpretations are reasonable. Here, I'll do one better: he was clearly only interested in having sex with her. OK, great, she didn't want to, he respected her decision, they both went on their merry ways.

At that time, she didn't know if there was any danger. Fine, great, perfectly reasonable; we have no context whatsoever about body language, tone, or anything other than "He was male and they were in an elevator." If the guy pushed the issue at all, or refused to let her off the elevator without getting her number or something, I'd be totally running for my horse and lance right now to decry him as an asshole predator.

But that didn't happen. She got off the elevator, and made it her room safe. I am sorry, but being flirted with, even awkwardly, is not something I can see as a social wrong in need of redress.

That was initially what I was irate about. I didn't understand why she felt threatened until Sol educated me, but I was at least able to recognize that it's fucking wrong to dismiss her like so many people do.