*EDIT*

Split from 'Goth In One Hour?' thread By EPS



Yup, and an amazing number of links just lead through gothnicity right back to us...

Shame, 'cause i don't think we have it anymore. But I believe that the "how to bag yourself a goth" and "Goth with a Sledgehammer" are still my favourite ones. And I think they can still be found.

Uhh..This?

I had to post it in four parts because of the silly word counter...

http://blood-dance.net/goth/images/grantb.gif

1. What is Goth? Ignoring historical references to European barbarian tribes and, architectural, literal and art styles, Goth is a subculture. It started in the late 1970's both in Europe AND the United States OUTSIDE of the club/music scene. The culture was comprised of INDIVIDUALS with very little in common but their artistic drive, insatiable curiosity, extreme intellectualism, and the socially unacceptable need to be and express themselves. In a nutshell, Goth is very much like 70s Punk with a brain and good manners. (In other words, it shares the underlying feeling of disgust and seperation from normal everyday culture that the 70s Punks espoused, but expresses its alienation and disenchantment with modern society and it's values in a more intelligent and less destructive manner.) The label Goth itself is very much a discriptive reference to the literary genre and architectural style both of which characterize and evoke the mood and to a certain degree, mindset that is generally idealized by modern Goth as a cultural group.

1. How do I become Goth? I hate to break it to you, but Goth is not something you can just learn. Gothic people grew up that way. Most people do not have the genuine sense of wonder, creativity, talent, open-mindedness, and appreciation of the duality of existence, nor of themselves and their abilities that makes a person genuinely Goth. While some of these things can be learned over the course of years, most of it can only be emulated. To emulate something strongly implies that the action is neither original nor genuine. That is just not Goth.

1. How do I know if I'm Goth? This is a VASTLY more reasonable question. It's sort of odd and sad at the same time that a lot of actual Goths don't know that they are. This is unfortunately the work of massive media stereotyping and misinformation from ignorant but rather noisy wanna-bees. It seems that the bulk of available information on Goth comes from those two sources. Never mind that.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   If most (10 or more) of the following statements are true, it is VERY likely that you are Goth. If the first statement is false, you aren't Goth. No, not even if all 16 of the rest are true. Of course, you would be readily accepted and most welcome amongst Goths for your strength of individuality and ability to appreciate the culture in general and themselves in particular.

• • You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like)
  • Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange
  • You like museums and cultural centers
  • You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes
  • You know the difference between nihilism and existentialism, even if you don't really live by either
  • You really, truly enjoy music of many kinds
  • You are a very sensual person (aware of color, texture, sound, taste and scent)
  • You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV
  • You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know
  • You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you
  • You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers
  • You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own
  • You don't just reject something because you don't understand it
  • You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like
  • You are not afraid of the unknown
  • You are not afraid of the dark
  • You are afraid of mediocrity

1. Laura Lemay says that to be Goth I have to be angsty and wear a lot of black. Is this true? NO. Black and angst are not necessary to be Goth. True Goth defies stereotyping and does not adhere to dress codes. Too much angst or other negative emotion stifles a person's ability to learn, think, and create. Most actual Goths are psychologically pretty well-adjusted people. They just have a different set of cultural and social blueprints than your average person. Ms. Lemay knows a lot more about web authoring than she does about Goth, even if she refuses to practice good web design on her own personal site. But she DID get one thing right when she said,"Try not to take yourselves so seriously." Granted, that's a little out of context, but it's good advice just the same.

So, this brings up a whole new can of worms...the most common tidbits of juicy misinformation about Goth. In almost two decades of watching people's perceptions of Goth, I have found that never has there been so much inaccurate information as there is now. It's time to break out the hammer and start banging. Let's take a look at the most commonly distributed misinformation about Goth, shall we? Ten Gothic Stereotypes We All Love To Repeat

• All Goths must wear black. Color is not Goth.
• Goth is a subculture based on a musical style.
• All Goths listen to the same music.
• All Goths are fixated on death.
• All Goths drink a lot/do drugs.
• Goth came from the hippie movement.
• Goths don't laugh except to mock others.
• Goths all have tattoos and piercings.
• Goths always wear a lot of makeup.
• Goth and Freak are interchangeable terms for the same culture.

I know that a lot of so-called "Goth" people accept these things to be facts. I see it on the Web and I see it on what passes for a scene. I also know that this list of statements and quite a few others like them are just so much bullshit. So what is the truth? Here, let's go back through that list and correct things, eh? You might be surprised, or you might be another Olde Schooler, in which case, you'll be greatly amused.

All Goths must wear black. Color is not Goth.

I can see where this one might have some heavy support, since the scene is filled with cookie-cutter, black clad people who generally avoid the few daring individuals who might wear white, or gods forbid *gasp!* include color in their wardrobe

This lack of individualism strongly suggests to someone who doesn't really understand Goth that we have a uniform look or worse, that we are conformists. What people fail to grasp is that most people on the Goth scene are either skin-Goths (poseurs), demi-Goths (people who might make fine Goths if they could just get over what other people thought of them) or second and third generation Goths who just honestly never had any contact with other Goths who knew what the movement is all about.

This is one of the things that created the paradox of a culture that was based on individualism and creativity but just the same had a rigid conformist dress code. Truth is, Goth is rabidly individualistic and we wear whatever we damn well please. Color is not an exception. You just don't recognize us when you see us outside of the stereotype. Goth is a subculture based on a musical style.

I can also see how a lot of people might get this impression. A lot of otherwise decent sources of information on Goth and its more recent history offer this myth up to us as fact. It may even very well be part of the truth for some Gothic orgins in some parts of the world, but it is predated by the emergence of Goth as culture rather than Goth as musical genre in America (at the very least). The media (read record labels and associated musical rags) started this, and I find it disgusting that so many people feel the need to perpetuate this myth that the musical genre started Goth as opposed to Goth starting the genre.

Many sources including the Usenet's alt.gothic group even go so far as to say that the actual cultural origins of Goth were a later fable added after the supposedly music-based trend happened.

This is absolutely false. Before there was a so-called Goth sound, we had dropped the title of New Romantics and firmly settled on calling ourselves Gothic. The culture pre-dates the musical genre by a good two years. I should know. I was there. Honest.


All Goths listen to the same music. Yah. Sure we do. Actually that's not highly likely. Even the skin-Goths have a semi-diverse musical taste. This is one of those ridiculous stereotypes that is glued onto every single culture that exists. It is true of none of them, and is just as untrue for Goths. I won't waste any more breath on this one.

All Goths are fixated on death. Okay people. Repeat after me: Goth is not about death. Good. Now go to your local institution of higher learning and enroll in art history and English lit classes. Learn about symbolism and metaphor. Maybe take a few philosophy classes. This stereotype is usually caused by being uneducated or ignorant. Goths are by and large more fixated on the concept of beauty as an abstract, creative endeavors (both their own and those of historical origins) and simply trying to get ahead in a society that doesn't share their individual aesthetics, values and principals.

If you have a decent fine arts education, an ounce of perceptiveness and know the difference between a real Goth and a skin-Goth, you know that Goth, while often dark and eerie, is NOT obsessed with death. Regular American culture is. All Goths drink a lot/do drugs. I realize that this is a pretty deeply ingrained idea about Gothic culture, but it's wrong.

Goths are not all completely cleancut, sqeaky-clean sober types, but we aren't all into drugs.

Granted, most young people go through an experimental stage with sex and drugs, and the bulk of Goth is made up of young people, but let's face it, Goths don't do any more drugs than your average person. Drugs aren't a requirement in being Goth, even if there are a lot of irresponsible people out on the scene who are hellbent on telling you otherwise. We have a word for those types. Maybe you've heard it...Junkie. Just remember Goth does not equal Junkie.

Goth came from the hippie movement. This is more media stereotyping. It is also completely false. Goth has nothing to do with the hippie movement. There are no similarities either. Alt.culture has a really interesting but completely inaccurate write-up on Goth that mentions this, and people are entirely too fond of repeating this rancid little tidbit of misinformation. I'd like to say STOP IT right now. Just cut it out. Goth came from neither Hippie nor Punk. If it came from anything at all, it was a new outlook on Beat.

Goths don't laugh except to mock others. This is just too pretentious. I've been a Goth for two decades and I spend a lot of time laughing at a lot of things that have nothing to do with the misfortunes or lack of taste of others. I am not the exception. Most Goths have a well-developed sense of humor that is really quite healthy. Certainly we don't all laugh at the same things or make the same kinds of jokes, but that is a given, isn't it?

It seems that a huge number of people that claim to be Goth also claim that we don't share in the common human arena of emotion, but common sense alone should tell you that this is, like so many other things, a posturing load of unmitigated bull. Yes, I know that there are flocks of people who claim to be Goth that will demonstrate personally and in the most uncomfortable fashion that we are nasty, sociopathic bastards who live to laugh at your misfortunes and will excuse their unacceptible behavior by claiming that it's the Goth way of acting.

I'm sure you've seen them in IRC and Usenet and that they seem to be the unpleasant majority, but if you take a few minutes to think, it may become apparent that at least online there are entirely too many people claiming to be something other than they are and that people in general (online and off) are frightfully nasty towards one another if they feel that they can get away with it. Sure, we Goths have a different view of things socially, but then again, so do the Japanese, and no one accuses them of not ever laughing non-maliciously. Do they? Goths all have tattoos and piercings. More stereotyping. Tattoos and piercings have become very trendy these days. Stereotypical Goth has also become very trendy. So you are going to see a lot of skin-Goths running around with a lot of very obvious tattoos and piercings. You will also see a lot of Ravers, Rednecks, Indie Kids and other people who have nothing to do with Goth running around with tattoos and piercings a-go-go.

You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to deduce that one. Just remember, Goths are individuals. We will do what we think looks right on us, and if having no ink or metal imbedded in our skin feels right, we will do with or without and still be indisputably Goth.

Goths always wear a lot of weird or scary makeup. No, not at all. This, again, goes back to the central idea that Goths are individuals and all exercise their own judgment on how they feel like looking. Sure, makeup is pretty cool, and its application can be a fun pre-outing ritual, but again, it is far from necessary.

Goth and Freak are interchangeable terms for the same culture. This is ridiculous. It is almost as silly as saying that grunge kids and rednecks are the same cultural group.

Sure, there may be some similarities in the stereotypical outward appearance to the grossly unobservant or the painfully ignorant, but it is still radically untrue. Anyone who would ever mistake one for the other after observing for a few minutes is either blind, high, or completely unaware of the actual social and ideological dynamics of both groups.

I am thinking that if we are going to continue to live in a society that needs to categorize, stereotype and label, that perhaps we should more carefully analyze the people and things we are labeling before we slap a name on them.

Don't just call someone something because they look a certain way. Visual stereotyping is a terribly inaccurate method for classifying people in real practice these days. Most often you will be wrong, and vastly poorer for it.

*Hefts the sledgehammer and grins* So, hopefully some of this has made some sort of impact on some of you. Maybe you might even be a little more interested in Goth as a culture and individual Goths as people with something more meaningful and valuable to contribute to both society in general and yourself in particular than bad attitude, poor taste and drugs.

Who knows, you might even realize that *you* are Goth.

Or that the black-wearing scary kids who have been giving you a hard time because you can't recite every album produced by Christian Death before Valor took over aren't anything but trendies, bullies or jocks.

Or maybe not. Maybe you ARE one of those T B or Js, trying to impress your loser friends by pretending to be something exotic that you don't understand. In that case, you are probably gearing up to flame my uppity self.

Go right ahead, but be warned: I am not easily embarrassed, frightened, or hurt.

And I give as good as I get. So take your best shot and pray that I decide to ignore you.

Either way, I've said what I needed to say. It's time to hop off of the soapbox and pray I land feet-first again. This rant is over. Stay beautiful, stay graceful, and stay you.

Azhrarn


http://blood-dance.net/goth/grant.html

And there you have it folks..

Why didn't anyone ask me?

:p

Oh and here is a link to her Black Papers page with all of her Rants and Links..

http://blood-dance.net/goth/index.html

She even pounds on Eric, the douchebag that claims he can make someone "Goth" in less than an hour..haha..

Thank you for that, Empty_Purple_Stars. That was beautifully written and very eloquent. I wish I had some of your prose writing style!

I wish I could take credit for that one Spooky..

Alas, Azhram wrote it.. That obscure word at the end of it, is her name..

Mael was looking for her paticular rant on the subject, because we hear nothing but " O0oo I'M A GOTH " " What IS a GOTH?? " " How Do You Become Goth " " Was I born a GOTH? " " Is my Chihuahua, Alfred, A GOTH??? "

This way, everytime we hear the same Waa Wah Wah Wah, we can just link them to Goth With A Sledgehammer and say STFU..

:D

Thanks for the compliment anyway..

Hers is BY FAR, the MOST well-written rant on Gothy Goth Gothdom and all of its tedious misconceptions..

There is a link at the bottom of her Rant, directly to her site, which I dont even think she updates anymore, but there is some neat shit tucked away in her message forum as well..

Happy Bubble Bursting..

:D

I got into the underground music scene in the mid 80's when I was 14 y/o. I was exposed to punk and gothic music from kids that grew up in the housing developments where I lived. In my teen years I was developing my own style which was more of a punk look. (as much as i hate to use labels sometimes they are necessary to explain things)I hung out with whoever shared and expressed the same feelings as me. Which just so happened to be punks, goths, and skins (and no not Nazi skins as they were not the original skinhead btw). We all hung out together because we were all different and had to stick together, because back then it was not uncommon for us to be beat up, harrased, have bottles thrown at us from cars and trucks etc.. Because it was a VERY uncommon thing to see people like us back then. So it was all about unity. It is true Goth's were alot more introverted and mellow than us punks but we were pretty much all one big family none the less. I listened to alot of gothic style music back then, but since I spent alot of time Skateboarding and riding freestyle, I was way more into the punk rock lifestyle simply because those were the types that I skated with. But when it came to Fri. and Sat. night Cemetary and under the bridge parties, it was on for all of us freaks. Goth's, Punx, Skins, Mods, and whoever else had the balls to come down to these spots to party with us. Most of the time the parties were around empty abandoned swimming pools, concrete drainage ditches, and the cemetaries and bridge parties I mentioned before. But most places we could crank loud music build huge fires, drink, smoke and skate, or ride our BMX bikes. But we all had one thing in common we all came from blue collared famalies, brokenhomes, some of us lived in fosterhomes together, some were even runaways. Anotherwards we were pretty much outcasts and didn't want to be associated with the norm. That's why it all comes down to individualism.
And most importantly we were there for each other through thick and thin.

At least those are my experiences. It's sad though it just doesn't seem to be as sincere anymore, maybe that's just me getting old.


Anyway well written EPS!

I didn't write it.. Wish I had..

Azhram wrote the Rant..

I posted a link for Spooky Purple to her Black Pages if you want to read more..

Thank you I enjoyed that and well put together by the way!

Eps - i agree with your philosophy, and the childish stereotypes that people come up with. Sometimes people ask me "why are you smiling? thats so not like a goth" WTF? they dont even know what goth is. arg. its so annoying when they think what goth is, they just think that goth people are the ones who wear all black and believe in Satan. i just want to punch them in the face.

Just to be a jackass:

You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like) - Yay! We get more poetry about how the world sucks, more music that will blow our eardrums out, and philosphies on how humanity s0x0rs!

Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange - So are my sexual fantasies.

You like museums and cultural centers - So, they like malls with hot topic, and they want to see either old dead stuff, or be around a bunch of people, so they have someone to stab.

You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes - So, if it speaks in Ye Ol' en Forescore, s'all good?

You know the difference between nihilism and existentialism, even if you don't really live by either - Now tell me what pseudotransmundanealantidisestablishmentarianism is.

You really, truly enjoy music of many kinds - And yet what about the "Rap r t3h s0x0rs" threads?

You are a very sensual person (aware of color, texture, sound, taste and scent) - Ah, this is where we get nymphomaniacs from.

You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV -But...but...Seinfeld is fun!

You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know - So you're are unique, just like everyone else?

You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you - So, you want to be different, with all of the other people differently?

You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers - Then answer me this, why is it that all of the why questions seem to be the same question?

You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own - Here's another one, how come, if you're wondering how, then why haven't you figured out how to do it yet?

You don't just reject something because you don't understand it - Except for rap music, and rappers, and general society...

You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like - Except for geeks, rappers, and once again, general society.

You are not afraid of the unknown - Except for rappers....

You are not afraid of the dark - Get me in that room and see what you say!

You are afraid of mediocrity - But.... "ou don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know"....

I'm not sure if that was a joke or if there was a point trying to be made.

I wrote it, and I'm not even sure, I believe at the time I was trying to make a point, but I was laughing to hard to make anything credible.

I guess I must have missed the joke somewhere. But I don't remember any jokes weaved into this thread. Except you succeding in your attempt to be a jackass.

Daedalus wrote;
"Just to be a jackass:.........."

That is my goal in life, to be the perpetual and undeniable jackass, the cold unhearted bastard who seeks to do nothing more than piss everything off. For the moment: Mission Accomplished.

Undeniable jackass yes, cold and unhearted (I wouldn't give yourself that much credit), Bastard? who knows and I certainly don't care. Are you really pissing anything off or anyone, again don't flatter yourself.
And for the moment the only mission you've accomplished is being an undeniable jackass.

You really don't set your goals so high do you.

In the future don't make a mockery of someone's thread.(Espescially a mods) And try to keep the train on the track. And the IQ above the double digits.

But isn't that one of the ideals of being a jackass? If you go off target, then what have you? Why, you have just destroyed a topic!

Now, as for the setting the goals so high, well, I do set my goals high, for different areas. In the internet, where I don't really care, I use it as a social engieering experiment, a constant tool to prod and poke. The same with the telephone. In real life, I apply what I learn on the net, to what I do there.

I only have one thing to say your IQ is the same number as your age,
the more you type the lower your IQ drops.

You must have a lot of free time.

So, with the amount of words, or even paragraphs I have typed, my IQ would be in the negatives. Yay! And yes, I do have many, many hours of free time.

Free time huh, then you better get in where you fit in on the YWCA synchronized swimming team before tryouts start.

I like Swimming, and I think Bikini's make me look sexy ^_^. But, nah, I like my Speedshooting competitions better.

I didn't know they had Redryder speedshooting comps for 14 y/o little girls.

You'll shoot your eye out kid!

Yes, yes they do, they are so much fun!

Now if you don't have anything to add to the subject of this thread go get you mom to put those pigtails in and go play some hop scotch like a good girl.

Hmm, but what is the subject now? It seems I have succesfully managed to engineer your actions, and infact all of the actions of those I have come into contact with, to regard me as, if anything a jerk, which was really my main objective in the first place.

Your Mommy and Daddy must be so proud..












Not really....







Tedious little troll..

Holy Shit!!

According to that text I AM very much a goth. I know this will sound crazy but I had no idea.

i agree and no that thread wasn't me it was some1 on my name....idk who but w/e i'll find out i just made this account and there r 4 nosey people in my home so i am srry for upsetting any of you. I am a goth and my brothers and sisters don't (or didn't) know untill now

Fang~

no not realy its just like the thing said you can't tell a goth instantly and i just like never told any1 idc what people think i am not afaid of like getting kicked outa my house its just that my dad would like send me to a mental instatute if i told him b4 now...i thought he should find out the hard way

I suppose. Bah, I don't care much for social labels. They're just not defined well enough. I like to do a few things that I don't suppose a lot of you would enjoy, like working on vehicles (my truck, to be specific). I'm a half-Italian, art loving, automechanically inclined, goth-type-person.

But then it's like mentioned in the GwaS post. It's the few things we have in common (artistic drive, insatiable curiousity, intelligence, etc.) that give us the right/ability/motivation to call ourselves "goth".

no not realy its just like this you can't tell a goth instantly and i just like never told any1 idc what people think i am not afaid of like getting kicked outa my house cuz i am a goth its just that my dad would like send me to a mental instatute if i told him b4 i let him find out for himself...i thought he should find out the hard way. i have a family the judges people by the way they look the way they act and talk and what thier grades are. i am different than that i don't judge people b4 i know them and all of the things that the post said are true to me it is a personal thing that my dad won't understand (o and i lost my mother at 10 so you will probably never hear me talk about her...)

I Agree somewhat with you. you should though, type the full words..... It's harder for some of us to follow. ^^

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ ........ ,,,,, :: --

There you go. Some capital letters and punctuation marks for you to use. Those, along with a dictionary, should allow you to type something we can actually read.

I'm bumping this now so you retarded worthless fucks can get it into your head.

that was a really good thread. i read the whole thing and didnt skim any of it. the goth witha sledge hammer made me laugh. makes me really think of all the farmkids and rednecks here and, just the shit that happens at school.

It's hard to define the undefinable, but pretty much everything on the list I can say I can relate too. I don't want to say I'm goth persay, since the hardcore scene kids would kick my ass... more of less I feel I am just an artsy, weird, questioning kid. Who doesn't fit in here becuase I don't care about people being different (God forbid African-Canadians moved into our town, or somebody is gay or something unusual like that) and I like art and reading. Thats a one way ticket to ass-kicking. I honestly used to hide my poetry books in my purse so I wouldn't be seen carrying them. I used to hide a bunch of books from the kids around me. They take them and mock them and throw them around. It's ridiculous and aggrevating to watch good work go into the mud day after day. You can tell whoever you want who is in a position to stop it and they don't care. "It's just a book." is something I heard loads as a kid.

But I dont care. Their loss for not knowing how to read or whatever their problem with books are. They can go and drink their beer and nightrace their tractors through feilds. I won't ever comment on how dumb that is to them. I won't even laugh if someone who deserve to be hurt by such an activity gets hurt.

Sorry, I rambled there. But thank you to Empty_Purple_Stars for that clearup :).

Huh.

I answered yes to about everything on that list, except the TV one. So I guess that makes me all gothy-goth.

...of course, if you actually use that list as a barometer then practically everyone I know is a Goth, even the ones who'd slap you upside the head for calling them Goth.


...also, is defining the undefinable anything like quantifying the immeasurable? (My horoscope said one time that I would be eager to quantify the immeasurable... I don't remember much more about that except commenting somewhere that it's probably not a good thing to do on an empty stomach. But I suppose that's pretty far beside the point.)

Well, Saturnine, I think you'll fit in just fine here.

And NyQuil, I'd say that although your point is valid, keep in mind that the list actually discludes half of the people that come to this site. Creepy, isn't it?

Bumped.....

I'm so goth that there's nothing you can do about it. :P *bumped again* Hehe.

Hey, I had all that and a bag of stale cool ranch Doritos.

No, I spent the prime of my teen years (from 14 on) in grips with the Goth world without knowing it existed. I spent many a day looking for people who thought like I did.. (this was before AOL... imagine that??) My roots began back in the day of 5600 baud modems and dial up BBS boards... Here in Minnesota I was the first of the Goth only BBS boards "Death Valley BBS"...

I'm a cursed workaholic, I remember the days of time to read and create... but now... *sigh*
Due to the lack of funds and time for an extended period of college I wouldn't consider myself an intellectual of higher education, but as for street smarts and quick thinking... sarcasm is my best friend.

I believe that pretty much any and all "how to be goth" guides are absolute misleading crap. I've seen goth 101 guides that say it is based soley on the music, for chrissakes!

It is true that there is no real way to tell that you are, but there are plenty ways to tell that you aren't.