men are people too
 

Wasn't sure if this should go here, esp if I am, quote unquote, whining on behalf of someone else--also, I realized as I was writing this, that Goths don't have this particular issue as much as mainstreamers because we are more progressive thinking...

Anway--my rant;

Chivalry is dead and women killed it. Dave Chapelle said that during a stand up performance and I felt robbed.

I had been saying it for years.

How did we kill it?

By sending men mixed signals.

We tell the world we value our independence, some of us going so far as to scream at a guy for having the courtesy to hold a door open for us so it doesn't smash us in the face, and yet, when we get married, some of us expect to be taken care of financially and emotionally, no matter how much money we ourselves personally make, frowning on men who don’t have high profile jobs, no matter their suitability as a partner.

Or we become so independent minded with an “I don’t need no man” attitude, that we make our partners feel like little more than a walking dildo.

Example -- a good friend of mine told me about a friend of hers who felt she had finally met her soul mate. The man was attractive, fun, decent, kind and loving. She was falling in love fast. On top of it all, he was a civic minded firefighter, beloved in his community. But when she was relating her confusion about the relationship, it had nothing to do with whether or not the guy was decent. It had to do with the fact that he was a fireman and had a low paying job.

“I make eighty-thousand dollars a year – I want a mate who makes at least that much,” She sniffed.

So she dumped him.

They remained casual friends. Some time passed and he got engaged. He invited her to the engagement party, and when she went to his home she discovered that dude was living in a mansion – he was a millionaire—he only volunteered as a fireman!

He had kept his wealth a secret so he would be assured that the woman he was with loved him for him and not his money.

In the end, he found the woman who was perfect for him—the one who accepted him as a fireman.

Talk about a karmic bitch slap! LOL…

Another case in point, a fellow singer I heard tale of was constantly gold digging. During a very ritzy, high profile gig, she met a man, an ugly little French fellow who barely spoke English, who hit on her the entire evening.

She snubbed him , later joking to her friends that she had been followed around all night by a funny little French man with a cheesy accent.

She soon found out that the dude was a Prince.

Needless to say that blew chicha’s high.

And good for her.

She didn’t like him before—so what changed? He was Danny Davito in her eyes, but suddenly a title turned him into Ville Valo…

Sadly, many American women do just this sort of thing – we toss aside the garbage man with a heart a gold for a surgeon who yes, makes a 100 K a year, but when you are no longer a trophy wife, he will cheat on you with his nurses…

We want equality, but the man has to pay for every date or he is looked down upon. We want to be put on pedestals, but frown on a woman who wants to do the same for her man. We want our emotional needs met, but when a man expresses a desire that is not feminine (because hey, they are men, not women) we scoff, demean them and make fun.

A good example of this is how men have to have space. They do. It makes them feel independent and not chained--this is very important to the male psyche. But when a man says this, what do we do. We get all freaked out, call our girlfriends and make him feel like a jerk for a very legitimate male needs.

Ladies, we have to admit it. An unfair tide has turned in our country. Where once we were downtrodden and had no voice, the roles are reversed and it is men who are in this position.

I say this because, I see more and more, where men appear to have to place their emotional wants and needs on a back burner in relationships, when we should be more understanding of those needs.

Other prime examples. We get pissed off if our man tries to tell us what to do, who to see and where to go--but he has to consult with us for his every move.

I've been privy to occasions where a man will tell his woman, "Hey I am going to go up the street and see so and so"…

And a girl exclaims, "No, hell you won't!". This is often met by heart amen’s from the gal pals.

Back that up.

Say you told you man "Hey, I am going to the store with so and so and I'll be back in a minute."

What would we say if he told us, "No hell you won't?"

Dude would be sleeping on the couch.

See what I am saying?

How is that fair?

Two grown people who love and trust one another, should be able to make plans—without constantly having to okay it with one another. To be sure, no girl or guy should be out every night -- if that were the case, why be in a relationship? But, you should be able to have a guy or girls night out without constantly having to check in.

If you married someone you cannot trust, whose fault is that?

We tend to know very early on if the partner we have chosen is trustworthy--I know a woman who married a dude knowing he had a drug problem and had cheated on his ex wife--now that he is abusing drugs heavily once more and sleeping around she is pissed -- but she shares part of the blame in her own fix.

If you chose someone with whom you can give your whole heart and all your trust they do not need a leash.

Now of course, if you make pre plans then altering those on the fly is another matter--you should always value the time you set aside for one another.

Mutual respect is the cornerstone of relationships.

Men value their independence just like we do, and they should have a healthy outlet to express it.

Also, we want our men to be there emotionally for us right? If we are scared, we want to be held, if we are down , we want to be talked to, but if lets say, our man is going through a mid life crisis, we poke fun, ridicule and withdraw our affections, telling them to get over it?

If you were PMSing and your guys said, hell doll, get over it –well, the funeral would be lovely.

But we have no room for empathy or sympathy for male chemical emotional cycles and fluctuations, which is essentially what a mid life crisis (it is both psychological and physiological).

Don't our men's emotional needs matter?

Another case in point – we are constantly wanting our men to reassure us that they love us, find us a beautiful, attractive – yet if a man reaches out for this same comfort we tell him he is filled with “testosterone”, and wants his “ego stroked.”

Who doesn’t want their ego stroked once in a while?

If we want him to say, “Darling, I think you are the sexiest woman in the world,” then what is wrong with us saying, “Baby, you are such a hunk and I adore you…” or some variant thereof…

And yes—men are filled with testosterone – so what? This isn’t an inherently bad thing.

They are, after all, men—we are different—and that is not an evil thing.

Look it, we say we don't want to be treated like objects, and for men to have a regard for our well being, but in turn we view men like walking checkbooks, placing value on them based on what they earn.

This is not to say that the modern woman don’t face real modern issues and concerns, or that men are totally innocent in their portion of bad behaviors in the dating game, I am saying that part of the issues we may be having in this arena is due to women not owning up to the fact that we are placing our emotional well being on the shoulders of men and giving very little emotional support back.

My husband and are I are very independent natured -- he knows that I trust and love him so he is free to do what he likes, all I have to do is know so I don't worry, but it's not like he has to consult with me.

I let him be him, and he lets me be me.

But guess what--becasue he knwos he has that freedom he barely uses that card--thats' right. We are inseparable. He knows he is free, but he chooses to be by my side -- and I by his side.

It feels good knowing that, if he had a choice, he chooses to be with me.

We are also respectful of one another needs and desires. I mean, even in the little things. I never have to ask him to put the toilet seat down or take out the trash. He never has to ask me to hold him, talk to him, listen or even, give him space.

I adore him like no other being I have ever met--he is the light in my eyes and I don't care who knows it.

In time, our dynamic may change, and that's okay too--nothing is static, we all evolve and grow -- but I will accept him as he comes to me, faults and all, fears and all, needs in all, whether he has money or not.

Let us accept that doctors and lawyers who look like Brad Pitt are not the only men worth marrying, and maybe relations between the sexes will improve all around...

Thank you for that. I', starting to get a little sick of having to check to see if my nads are still there after I hold the door for a girl. I was just being nice, I hold the door for everybody, it didn't merit a "Do my arms look broken to you?!".

*goes and mopes in the corner*

I know right, but that same girl, who gave that attitude would wonder why men are no longer romantic--it pisses me off--we have to give the treatment that we ourselves expect, the whole do unto others. Love and respect is cyclic and reciprocal not an automatic given...

PS--don't let a girl like that make you stop being polite...so many people stop with the manners in reaction to rudeness.. I say keep on keeping on my brotha'..;-)

I try to be polite as much as possible, even if it means getting occasional rude comments and plenty of odd looks.

Thank you for saying this; it's sadly true that some people take courtesy as an insult, and I have plenty of friends who have gotten discouraged by it.

Thanks. No, I don't let it stop me, it's all worth it when I get a smile from a pretty girl or gratitude from someone who actually needs the help (people in wheel chairs, the elderly etc.).

My only other greivance is that girls all seem to think that I'm only nice because I want some. Just because I'm a teenage guy doesn't mean I'm only nice when I want to fuck someone -_-

Wow, bravo! That was an amazing post.

I have said for a long time that being a woman is so difficult today, because we expect one another to be Super Women: have a graduate degree, a high-powered career, have a husband with the same, and still manage to take care of the house with the white picket fence, and have 2.5 children of Einstein brilliance. We have put such difficult expectations upon ourselves as well as on men.

I can't understand why someone (woman OR man) would marry for money alone. Sure, you don't want to marry someone who is unemployed unless you make enough for the both of you and want to support them. You also have to be careful of people who are completely iresponsible with money. You want to be comfortable. Aside from that, what gives? Who are you trying to impress?

When I met my husband he was an assistant manager at a retail store. He made a decent amount, but he certainly wasn't rich. At the time, he drove a 10+ year old car that wasn't in the best condition, and he was living with his grandparents (he had just graduated from college and planned on moving out pretty quickly). We became best friends before we even dated. I fell in love with his smile, his laughter, the way he treated me, his passion for music and politics, and how wonderful I felt in his arms. Those are the kinds of things that really matter.

Amen and amen--like I said, I think Goths get it...why can't the rest of the world?

Damn it, I want guys to open the door for me.....Horror, where do you live?

Rae, after reading your post I have an urge to hug you. I believe nobody could have stated this opinion better than you just did.

In the South -- and it's like a regular thing here...lol...love it...

Thank you Romantic Raven, I just feel we need to end the animosity come to the drawing board and try to start off on equal footing...

Perhaps a pipe dream...

I live in bloody Maryland. No one is polite here. It seems to be against the law or something.

Finally! Someone who feels the same way as me. Gold digging women like that give women like us a bad name. People automactically assume that all women want fancy doctors and lawyers. I don't care what a man's profession is as long as he is sensitve and understanding and someone I can trust. As long as he isn't a drug dealer or an ex convict, I'm fine with it.

While some men can be annoying, I don't go around sprouting off man hating comments like so called "feminists". To be honest, I feel more sympathy toward men than women sometimes. So many double standard between both genders which the men suffer from the most. The one that annoys me the most is how a woman can hit a man and it's funny, but let a man hit a woman, all hell breaks loose where the man is labeled an abuser in a heartbeat ( which is true is some cases but not all).

That makes me wonder. Why is it only MEN can be abusers when WOMEN can be just as violent yet no matter if the situation is reversed the MAN is still made to be the bad guy while the WOMAN is always the victim?

damn that sucks...

While some men can be annoying, I don't go around sprouting off man hating comments like so called "feminists". To be honest, I feel more sympathy toward men than women sometimes. So many double standard between both genders which the men suffer from the most. The one that annoys me the most is how a woman can hit a man and it's funny, but let a man hit a woman, all hell breaks loose where the man is labeled an abuser in a heartbeat ( which is true is some cases but not all).

That makes me wonder. Why is it only MEN can be abusers when WOMEN can be just as violent yet no matter if the situation is reversed the MAN is still made to be the bad guy while the WOMAN is always the victim?[/quote]

yep--I agree-- I have known decent men who would never hit a girl, and some girls take advantage physically abusing them-- heifers like that need to be arrested...

popular media underlines this crap too, I mean, when was the last time a romance novel had a sexy bus driver on the cover holding a panting damsel???

I'd be glad to hold doors for you, if you would only be so kind as to pay for my taxicab down from Ottawa, Canada :P

THANK. YOU.


*saves to email*

Men are people...? Seriously, that's just stupid. Men are actually closer in relation to parameciums.
You seem to be off in your observations concerning women as well, which are a specific type of decorative plant.

Soylent Green is people too!!!

You can be a smart ass but I actually appreciated this post.

Ah she's just funning-- and soylent green---uhmmm tastes like old people...lol...

Seriously though, I just wish we could all just learn to give and receive love as it comes at us, which is the long and short of what I am saying I suppose --

And thanks Isolated...

And you can be really filthy and sweaty but I actually appreciate your musk.

Mmmmm musk.
Did you guys know that when a perfume says it's a "musk" that means it has deer juice in it? I mean, not anymore, probably, but that's what was in it.

Deer juice-eewwwwwwwwww

This is why I like you.

just what part of the deer does...the..juice..come...from.....

never mind...

Rae Ven Rae, I must say this is one of the most touching posts I have ever read, kinda like my life story here. Makes me wanna give a big "squishy" hug too. :D

I have great admiration and respect for women for the simple reason that they are beautiful in many ways. As I grew up, I was taught by my grandfather on how to be a gentleman (because I was curious as to how he made my grandmother so happy over 50 years of their marriage). Love, Respect and Communication was his other secret, AND it was NEVER about money or what he did for a career to provide. I always had that perspective for myself till I was grown up to be a true gentleman and perhaps fulfill a woman's happiness with true love.
I have been on dates, been in relationships and all they ever wanted was a man that made more than 5 to 10k a month. I always asked myself "Since when the hell did money become such a qualification to love?!!", I've done so many nice things and this is what I get? I've gotten over that and still prove to myself that someday, someone will a appreciate my common courtesy.

I work in a fabric store (yes, I am the only guy working there with 15 other women), I meet many female customers everyday, but I get asked this: "Why haven't you got a date yet?" sure beats the hell out of me. I even had one customer who was married for one month and we talked while I was cutting her fabrics, she suddenly broke in tears and told me "Oh god, I wish I married you instead". That was interesting but oh well. I also get compliments of my work or "It's nice to see a man who likes to sew." and still I tried asking some of them out and I got rejected for the fact that they say I don't make that much money working there (or is it because I look too goth for them?). WTF!!! I get fustrated knowing that I still get rejection over fucking money, I love my job and I wouldn't quit over a woman. I am a gentleman that works hard for his money and enjoys working with fabrics along with sewing many inspiring creations. I am also a very romantic person that likes to make a woman feel special quite often but in little ways. For instance, I'll give a back rub or foot rub after she's had a long day at work, cook anytime (most definetly), leave little postys with little love poems on them, awww shit I can go on and on with more but I'm sure we get the point. It seems that any woman that walks past me or asks me for help wouldn't know what kind of person I am unless they were willing to know me well enough, just like the old saying "Never judge a book by it's cover".

I was once in an abusive relationship, but I was the one that got the beatings, holy shit I am telling you that woman can be nice and suddenly her extreme temper left me bruised, bleeding and heartbroken. It's still hard to forget it sometimes because it was scarier than hell.

As lonelygirl17 said: "I don't care what a man's profession is as long as he is sensitve and understanding and someone I can trust", now with that in mind, I had all that and more to offer to many women, but who was taking it? Nobody.

It's sad how I hear some women say "I wish my bf/husband would show some common courtesy or be more romantic". It's hard to say if a woman actually knew her bf/husband well enough to know what kind of person he was. Did she actually fall in love with him or his money? I wouldn't now and I am not judging anyone either. I just I could understand more of this myself.

Anyways, Being a gentleman builds my confidence and self esteem. Opening a door for a woman and seeing her smile at you can be rewarding enough.

Pssst there is a book called "How to be a Gentleman" by John Bridges. maybe it can be handy for some people here. ;)


Oh Lapin, I would open a door for you anytime. :::: opens door:::: After you. :)

wow, i read this and it was an eye opener. i mean i believe in chivalry and try to uphold it, but i never really looked at it from both sides before. that was simply amazing

Heh, funny how most women who desire to give me advice say that I need to stop being super polite and try to get some attitude. New Zealand women, honestly...

Lucky I still score as a gentleman on the gentleman test though, otherwise my grandmother would come back from the dead and scowl in shame at me.

Rae Ven Rae, I couldn't agree more with you. Can I quote you forevermore?

Actually, that's a Dave Chapelle quote.

Actually, the quote is from "In Times Like These" by Nellie L. McClung, published in 1915.

:O


So even soemone as esteemed as Dave Chappelle steals quotes. xD

See THIS is why I love, love LOVE GOTH (and geek) men--and don't stop--don't you dare stop--all of you are just brilliant, and wonderful. HOLD OUT! My hubby wasn't Goth per se (leaned towards the techie geekster side)--but it was in his soul something he is discovering (which is why he was drawn to em I suppose). I have said and will say it again. I love men. Men are wonderful creatures. I am so sick of hearing about the losers and dawgs--they exist, but so do bitches. The thing is to weed through the muck to find the gold--it is rare, and once found, precious!

LOL...well, well--never heard the aforementioned prior quoter, but I echo their sentiments exactly...

Rae Van Rae, a big pat on the back for such an amazing post. I live in Lebanon. I see girls everyday marrying men who aren't their types just for their money and cars. My husband had a minimum wage job when we were dating and when we got engaged. We came a long way. He now has a much better position due to hardwork and a little TLC from me. I wouldn't trade him for all the money in the world! And he opens the door for me!

Corpsey, Dark Gentleman, I would marry either of you. Seriously.

Once again: Maryland. Do you know what I am surrounded by? Chavs. That's all I ever see. I want men who are clean and polite and not dressed like they can't find clothes in their own size!

We aren't people. We're dicks with drooling animals attached.

Thanks for disregarding the above stereotype (that it's ok to say cause women are supposedly less violent, more polite, and concerned with other things than sex) and realizing that even though women pretty much get fucked in the ass by society, men get their share of stereotyping as well nowadays. Kudos to ya!

Honestly I would love to add something to say here but everythings been spoken for me. I'm just glad some people out there realize what us men go through. Thank you

Bloody hell, this was by far the BEST posting I ever read on the net. Ever.

And I wholeheartly agree.

[quote=Rae Ven Rae] Sadly, many American women do just this sort of thing – we toss aside the garbage man with a heart a gold for a surgeon who yes, makes a 100 K a year, but when you are no longer a trophy wife, he will cheat on you with his nurses…

It's funny that you mention a wealthy doctor; my friend had a father who fit this role perfectly, although instead of committing adultery, he would just verbally insult his wife (i.e tell her he didn't love her and use profanities when referring to her in private). And this wife, my friend's mother, was by no means mentally a trophy wife; she was a certified psychologist who gave up her career so that she could be a stay-at-home mother. You can't keep someone with that level of intelligence and drive home for long; she started working again when her son (my friend) was about thirteen years old. This was much to the husband's dismay; for years he had claimed that a psychology was not a medical field worthy of respect.

He had been this way for about ten to fifteen years; since my friend's mother had met him. Yet she stayed with him because she needed financial stability, when she could have done well enough for herself. And even when she started working again (which, in retrospect, was a sign that marital trouble was brooding), she still felt that need for a financial crutch. Granted, being a single mother is not an easy task, but if anyone was capable of it, she was. I believe that the masculine figure represented stability in general for her; it's a mentality somewhat similar to that of Daisy Buchanan in the novel, THE GREAT GATSBY. Marital trouble became enough for her to leave him, but even so, the first thing she did was look for another boyfriend. She had as well had a negligent mother (I think), so finding someone who was financially stable could have been a way for her to seek "approval" or attention from her mother that she wanted as a child.

This mother also wanted the "wealthy lifestyle" (i.e the fancy car...). Which reminds me of the Dave Chappelle special you saw, "Killing Them Softly", which, if applied here, could indicate that women are not always attracted to men; they are attracted to money, especially, in my opinion, as a further symbolism of their strength or stability.

Love is one thing; love of money is another entirely.

If I was dating a guy who was sensitive, sweet, caring, and genuine, but lacked initiative by only working below average jobs because he lacks goals and the will to do better, I'd for sure dump his ass. I'm not going to support a deadbeat. Sorry.

My current boyfriend has left to go to university to get a 4 year masters degree. The outcome will probably result in a job that pays $35-$45k/year. I already know that I'll be the breadwinner, but the difference here is that my bf has a goal and it's going to take him 4 years to achieve it. To me that shows initiative. To top it off, he is all of the above mentioned things.

Supporting someone who is caring and genuine with initiative to do well for himself or the community is different than supporting a sweet talking douchebag who will always settle for less.

I find my gentlemanly side to be habit. I'm not overly gentlemanly in the least. I have my moments, but to be chivalrous to a T denotes pretention in my eyes.

I agree with Saddy coz that's what I did with my husband when we were dating. It took some time but I feel great for being part of his goals. Now, he's helping me acheive my goals.