"Goth"
 

Hey everyone. Well, firstly, this topic is what I would wish to be specific to the definition of "goth." I will, however, start with a hopefully brief (and hopefully I won't pull a Polonious by over-talking..) description of myself, wherein I will continue to argue or question the definition of "goth".

Ok so, me.. hmm.. Well, I am 17 and about 6'0, I'm semi-toned muscle wise, but considerably skinny (my "tonnedness" is parallel to my "skinniness"). Uhm, I generally enjoy roleplaying things and the like, am not really interested in satanism whatsoever, but generally enjoy occultism and the like (vampires, dragons/ D&D type stuffish, and various mythologies - yea, that's not really occultism, but work with me here !). I currently reside in Saskatchewan, Canada and am very proud of my nation, though the province is merely acceptable. I don't really concider myself a "goth" whatsoever, in part because I don't entirely understand the meaning of such a label, but also because I don't really believe I fit any of the "perspectives" or "generalizations" made about, or originating around, the title "goth." I don't dress in black clothes (though I used to moreso, in fact in grade 9 I remember a time when some people walked by and refused to ask me something because they thought I was creepy - at the time I was actually moreso happy about hearing that.. it was a warm and fuzzy feeling, lol). Let's see, I don't listen to Marilyn manson or really much of that other stuff, rather I listen to more alternative rock including: Linkin Park, Saliva, Our Lady Peace, etc. And, if you happen to recognize these bands, I also listen to other artists including: Thousand Foot Krutch, Toby Mac, Switchfoot, DC Talk, etc. However, despite all this, I think the primary reason I might not consider myself a "goth" is the fact that I am an avid and outward Christian. I don't really know if this is something that automatically would deem me unworthy of being a "goth" or perhaps even subjugaded and regarded as "lesser" than some others, perhaps some concidering themself to be "goth." I have been only viewing this site for a brief time (very brief, earlier today I was making myself some supper when a thought just floated into my mind "gothic.net". I don't know where the thought came from or why, it doesn't really interest me either, but I decided to check it out and stumbled upon this site. It was kinda ironic too, as the homepage of the site states "You have just stumbled upon..." which relates to my exact situation, which is kinda cool. So, I've been reading posts on this site for around an hour now). Ok, so I think that about sums up me, though I definately think I pulled a Polonious and WAY over-stated all that, so I appologize to everyone for that. Though, I think (and hope) it was essential for you to better understand where I am comming from for the rest of my post.

Ok, well I'll start the actual body of this post by asking a question: What is everyone's opinion of a "goth" ? Is a "goth" someone whom listens to hardcore death music ? Must one be consumed by thoughts of death and a morbid attitude ? Perhaps one must be exclusive and shy ? Perhaps one must be satanic, attempting to worship satan/lucifer/the dark prince/whatever ? Is being a "goth" some combination of all these things, or something entirely different ?

Despite the short amount of time I have been on this site, I have noticed a few specific generalizations (now there's an oxymoron for yah) including: "goth" is an attitude, not neccesarily a way of life, a dress-code, or a musical play-list. I have also noticed that there appear to be two "types" of people on this site (I again appologize, this time for generalizing people.. I dislike myself all the more for generalizing.. but it's an observation nontheless.) One "type" of person is the person that *appears* to hate life, people, and anyone willing to speak to them. The kind of person that will attack you if your belief system varies from theirs even in the slightest. The second "type" of person I have noticed is the exact opposite of the first: a caring, compassionate, usually educated and expressive person, that was perhaps the recipricant of abuse potentially caused by the first "type" of person, but not always the recipricant of abuse - often this type of person may be far from a place that might receive any significant amount of ridicule of any sort. My argument is that the latter "type" of person is more "true" to the definition of "goth." This observation is based on my own experiences of people who might be concidered "goth." Often I find strangers whom might be deemed the title of "goth" have more manners, intelligence, and honesty than anyone else I know, even people I have known for a long time. This, however, could be specific to my experiences and may not be the true definition of "goth" if such a definition exists.

Now, I would like to expand upon my previous questions. I would sincerely wish to know if, as a Christian, I am instantly eliminated from the possibility of being a "goth." Are Christians incapable of being "goth" ? Or are "goths" incapable of being Christian ? Or both ? I tend to see a pattern of thought congruent to both Christianity and "Goth" as well as many contradictions. The patterns tend to include a relative spirit of compassion, caring, and sincerity. They also both appear to fixated upon death and the afterlife. Differences then involve the afterlife, wherein, while both seem to concider the prospect of the afterlife more fluently, they each seem to hold to their own side of the spectrum involving such thoughts. Christians like to believe the afterlife is a possibility that grants all followers the ability to attain god-like qualities (I am referring to things such as modesty, reason, wisdom, etc. Not supernatural strength and all that) that will inevitably land them in a place called "heaven" where all pain and suffering is abolished, etc. "Goths" *seem* to fixate primarily on the opposite spectrum, where one might be sent to hell, a place of eternal fire and brimstone, turmoil and strife, pain and discomfort, a place where all your sufferings through all your life may be encompassed into a mere second, and multiplied a thousand-fold. At least, this appears to be one of the perspectives of "Christian" vs. "goth" thought. Perhaps in reality both are something entirely different, though I am basing Christianity more or less on my own beliefs. (I could go into a topic 5 times as long as this one based on my beliefs around Christianity, so I will spare all of you that discomfort and just try to wrap up this already too-long topic I seem to have created.)

To conclude this chain of thought, it appears as though "goth" is a relative title often given to people not of their own free will, though sometimes they wish for such a title, and is nearly always based upon the perspective of the individual. Thus, an accurate definition of "goth" does not appear to be capable of being drawn, outside of generalizations made between various perspectives. Therefore, the primary point of this post is actually a question: "What is YOUR definition of "goth ?"

"When in doubt, make it up."

Seems to be what most people here do, so why not set the trend with this lengthy thread basically asking the question the majority of us are trying to avoid (because it's a major conflict of interest)?

"What IS goth?" Is it really relative to what you personally believe? It can be. So can be calling yourself a vegetarian. But when you explain yourself in saying, "I may eat tons of hamburger meat, but I use Pert Plus shampoo so that makes me a vegetarian," the ridiculousness of that statement should suddenly alert you to the fact that you're totally clueless. Call yourself whatever you want, but don't try and justify being clueless with broadened ideals, because only other flakey people will adopt them.

If you'd be so inclined as to be self-sufficient for more than one single minute, I'd suggest you go out and do some research (if this TRUELY meants THAT much to you), rather than just approaching the whole situation with the trial and error attitude. No one is going to hold anyone's hand around here, so "Do, or Do Not," but don't contribute to the THIRD thread on this exact same topic, which basically boils right down to your personal views, backing up none of them with refferences to the subculture or how it came to be.

There's no definition in any dictionary and no one person has the answer. It's so dumb to sit around and contemplate that it doesn't even deserve one thread dedicated to it, let alone three.

Goth·ic
adj.
often gothic Of or relating to a style of fiction that emphasizes the grotesque, mysterious, and desolate.

gothic Barbarous; crude.

n.
A novel in a style emphasizing the grotesque, mysterious, and desolate.


Well, I'll start by defending myself because, as I am a new member and have not seen *all* the forums, I don't know how many topics are designed around the definition of Goth. Secondly, it appears as though there is a definition found from dictionary.com relating to the term "gothic" in the context we appear to be using it. Whether everyone agrees with this definition is what is ambiguous and relative. And thirdly, you made a couple of claims about me I'm not quite sure I understand what you meant. I'm not overly concerned by the question, but it does interest me. I'm rather certain I'm not a goth, and I may never be, however I am intregued by the idea of it. That is why I have created this post, in search of finding information. What better method of research is there than to ask people who are actually around it ?

Now as to your post.. it seems as though you only have one point: This topic is not worth the time spent on reading it, let alone anything else. I can understand that, and it makes perfect sense, however everything else you said relates to absolutely nothing. Yeah, I can call myself a vegetarian and then go and eat meat, but use pert plus, obviously then I'm not a vegetarian regardless of my use of pert plus. That statement is so insanely obvious it boggles the mind as to why anyone would ever attempt to use it as proof of anything at all. I suppose you're attempting to make the point that I could call myself a goth, go around in sickeningly bright clothing, and have an Edgar Allen Poe bumper sticker on the rear of my car, but that probably doesn't make me a Goth. The only problem with that is it doesn't eliminate you from it either, at least not in my opinion. The definition of vegetarian is rather definite, and if you wanna be more precise there are other adjectives available including vegan, and whatever else. Gothic however seems to come down to a persons own perspectives, and so a blantantly obvious statement such as your vegetarian theory does not exist, at least not to the same degree.

Anyway, I'm still looking for other peoples opinions, if you've already posted somewhere else or simply don't care to answer this post by all means forget it, I'm simply here for informations sake. Thanks.

Ok I went and got you the TRUE DEFINITION for gothic so here you are now please leave this subject alone because it already has a couple of threads that you can read through and get people's idea's/tthoughts on the subject I believe one of them is subjected as Gothique and is in the general section of the forum with four pages devoted to this argument now onto the definition.

Definition courtesy of Dictionary.com gotta love it

Goth·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gthk)
adj.

1.
1. Of or relating to the Goths or their language.
2. Germanic; Teutonic.
2. Of or relating to the Middle Ages; medieval.
3.
1. Of or relating to an architectural style prevalent in western Europe from the 12th through the 15th century and characterized by pointed arches, rib vaulting, and a developing emphasis on verticality and the impression of height.
2. Of or relating to an architectural style derived from medieval Gothic.
4. Of or relating to painting, sculpture, or other art forms prevalent in northern Europe from the 12th through the 15th century.
5. often gothic Of or relating to a style of fiction that emphasizes the grotesque, mysterious, and desolate.
6. gothic Barbarous; crude.


n.

1. The extinct East Germanic language of the Goths.
2. Gothic art or architecture.
3. often gothic Printing.
1. See black letter.
2. See sans serif.
4. A novel in a style emphasizing the grotesque, mysterious, and desolate.

Gothi·cal·ly adv.

You do realize that goth also happens to be an actual genre of music, right? That's not some broad "anything goes" area. Vanessa Carlton can go around and tell the press she's goth all she wants, but her music still gets thrown under the general Rock/Pop genre. You can go around and tell everyone you're a vegetarian, but most people will still consider you a meat-eatter if you're hogging down hamburgers. Ahhh.. yeah, suddenly that analogy does make sense, eh?

Yes, you can go into any dictionary and find "gothic/goth," but you won't find the definition in relation to what you're specifically looking for.

It was meant as a joke....... you've officially killed it. I meant to poke fun at his futile attempt at getting a definition of goth. You can get a comprehensive definition out of a dictionary.

Hunter,
I know.. calm down. :wink:
I was addressing Drizzt (and all of his remarks) with that whole post.

Sorry I suppose I was looking for a reason to get irritated... :oops: :oops: :oops: about something. Here's another blushing smiley just for good measure and because they look interesting. :oops: :oops: :oops: *calms down* You know those little kids who get really cranky because they don't want to go to sleep and then as soon as you make them sit still for a half second they're asleep...? I'm feeling a bit like that right now. :oops: :oops: :oops: :lol:

jesus was goth

Oh great. We've all heard that Jesus was a comunist, a hippie,a rebel, an anarquist. In some way, it kind of makes sense, but gothic.
Listen dude, he didn't just wear a cross, he got nailed into one. And you know what? If there really is a second coming, do you really think he's ever gonna want to see a cross again?
Or do you mean I can't be truly goth unless I get nailed to a tree?
Either that, or you actually took the "Jesus was gother than you" page seriously.

My cat's breath smells like cat food too.

What you are looking for is not a definition, strictly speaking, but a least common denominator. In this case, the LCD happens to be appearance(clothes/hair/makeup), and possibly venue of preference(In terms of type of club/bar, rather than specific location). Every other characteristic varies from individual to individual so wildly that patterns can only be found at the statistical level.

-JS

Lol I love how there was definately only one person who took this post seriously, and thank you for that. And yeah, I'm contented with that answer, so I wont bore anyone else with any more definitions and all that. Thanks Ya'll.

P.S. I dont have a cat, but if I did, his breath would most likely smell like catfood.

Heh, I find it sad that only one person took it seriously. It's not like he asked us to kill a judge or something. And someone seriously has an issue with vegetarians. Anyway, wasn't that a Ralph Wiggum quote, "My cat's breath smells like cat food! :o" [/quote]

Drizzt wrote: The second "type" of person I have noticed is the exact opposite of the first: a caring, compassionate, usually educated and expressive person, that was perhaps the recipricant of abuse potentially caused by the first "type" of person, but not always the recipricant of abuse - often this type of person may be far from a place that might receive any significant amount of ridicule of any sort. My argument is that the latter "type" of person is more "true" to the definition of "goth." This observation is based on my own experiences of people who might be concidered "goth." Often I find strangers whom might be deemed the title of "goth" have more manners, intelligence, and honesty than anyone else I know, even people I have known for a long time.

so yea, that's me but i haven't managed to run into anyone that seems the same, but you say they are on this site? could someone please tell me where? the first type of people just seem to want to fight, but honestly, what's the point..... by the way i'm a Christian too, if you want to email back and forth with me, you seem really cool, my email is trinityhlj@**********

OK, in a really round-about way, I think Drizzt's actual question was concerning if it is OK to be a Christian and a Goth.

I've been a "Goth" for over 18 years now, and I have been a Christian for 5 years. I did not see any reason to change my life style, my music, or my way of dress for any reason once I became a Christian. Some of the people at my church seem to disagree with me, but that is their problem, not mine.

Being a Christian and being a Goth, and how you present these parts of yourself to the world in general, are both something that is produced by a person's life experience and their personality. Goths may call it style, or individuality, Christians call it individual soul liberty. I, myself, have not found all that much of a clash in these two aspects of myself. Other people around me disagree with me (fellow Christians may not think I am much of a Christian, but then they are "judging" which is in itself a sin) and fellow Goths sometimes make fun of me for being a Christian (but I can usually talk circles around them about their own beliefs, because I have studied everything from Buddhism to Wicca) and I understand that everyone has their own beliefs and it is their right to have them. If everyone was exactly the same, this world would be excruciatingly boring.

You have to decide for yourself who you are and what you believe in. What other people are and think of themselves is totally unrelated to you. You can gain insight or get ideas from others, but I think in both instances (being a Christian as well as being a Goth) it is completely up to you to find a balance within yourself, to find out who you are and what you are ultimately comfortable with. You need to express yourself as an individual as well as be at peace with your conscience.

Now all we have to do is determine if it's ok to be Jewish and a Goth. OR maybe Muslim and a goth.

Ever notice that Chrstianity has its opposite in Satanism, but no other religion has been reactionary enough to spawn a practiced dark side? I find this particularly enlightening.

Actually, Wicca, Voo Doo, and certain forms of Animism all have practiced "light" and "dark" sides. ;)

The only way I have found to determine if people in black clothes really are Goth is to scream angrily at them. Sine all goths were heavily bullied at school, they are all to scared to shout back. If they, on the other hand knock your teeth out, you can rest assured they are not goth.

/Z8

If they knock your teeth out, they are punk.

Of course goths don't know how to fight back. And neither do girls. :P
http://flem.keenspace.com/d/20000105.html

Screw that! If you scream at me, I sure as hell am going to scream right back at you.

An eye for an eye and all that crap. :twisted:

ROTFL! I was planning to check out flemco's comics anyway, and now I'm a fan already...

/Z8

I bent my wookie.

"The only way I have found to determine if people in black clothes really are Goth is to scream angrily at them. Sine all goths were heavily bullied at school, they are all to scared to shout back. If they, on the other hand knock your teeth out, you can rest assured they are not goth."

Somebody doesn't go to the same clubs I do. Not if they value their life.

gotta love that random Simpsons quote...good 'ol Ralph...

*Random interjection*

The 1812 Overture was never meant to be translated to the cellphone. Individuals who believe otherwise are freely invited to fragment several dozen razor blades, stir them into a large quantity of tapioca, and administer by enema, retaining for no less than 2 hrs. For maximum effectiveness, follow immediately with epoxy.

*End interjection*

its nice to see that educated peopel still live and that some one can ask the obvios question and not be shot down but seriosly drizzt. i think ive spoken to you before on hot mail and surely you should have already have found the sight which has the damn paper on it which disects the basic mob known as goths (to all but themselves who just accept it as a label) into its seperate sub types. come on I found it when i was 15 surely you should be able to?

beyond that ive always wondered about the christianity v goth deal and personaly i dont think it maters what you believe and truth to tell at the end of your life your either going ot be suprised happy or jsut to damn dead to be disapointed.

as for the hwole shouting at some one to see if thier a goth i know enough ppl who are most definately that who would knock my teeth out if i insulted them. but thats besides the point. the humour wasnt wasted

goth
 

haha,wookie

so, i figure w/ being new here also, i would sympathize w/ you a little... so here is a site (that I happened to stumble upon oneday, and recommend to anyone) that may clarify the specifics for you... www.religioustolerance.org specifically www.religioustolerance.org/goth.htm

that site was rather amusing, i really like those quotes at the beginning
ahh, to gaze upon the ignorence of the human race :twisted:

Always very amusing... listen to "Leave me Alone" by the Cruxshadows. It consists mostly of news broadcasts about the "dangers of the gothic movement" that have been recycled into the song.

I can't find the website that I'm trying to... I've heard someone say that goths "see beauty where others see ugliness and see ugliness where others see beauty."

i like that

http://www.best-of-web.com/computer/.../bc_is_ani.gif

i voted for the last one. :D

goth
 

What is Goth?

Skinny Puppy=GOTH

Britney Spears=NOT GOTH(but many goth people would tie her down and stick foreign objects up her arse)

Re: goth
 

hey, you peaked.. now what am i going to get you for your birthday??

well now that you've seen, tell me... do you think the frozen 2 L pop bottle was too much?? :twisted:

Re: goth
 

Awww,damn!Just buy me a japanese slave girl...lol.Under 5' if possible.
The pop bottle's sliding right out.What were you thinking?All the blood's just acting as lube.... :evil:

Victor, my friends brother, who showed me "goth", explained it to me as just that...

i wonder what the fuck my cat has been eating to get breath that smells like cat food?! :?

goth to me is beeing a non refomest and expessing your feeling how ever you whish showing you passhins and most peopel dont see that. to me it not the black make up or the death music or even you belifs its the way i show other ppl feelings if there darker than the night sky or if ther a brite as the sun if you thank about it thats really why goths write poatry becase we want to experes our selfs in a way ppl will lison so its really our will to show feeling that no one els will experss so we do
...........thats what i feel goth is but you i could be wrong i dont no
P.S i know i cant spell so leave me a lone

Being the mass of ADHD behaviour that I am, I skimmed through your entry, and sort of skipped through the rest.

This could be beneficial so that I provide an opinion uninfluenced by other people's, then I can read them and get new perspectives, so everyone wins.

"Goth" as far as I have really noted as of late, is a label that many people appear to generally desire to label themselves as because it's "rebellious" in their view, then there are those that do it simply because no other label seems to fit, others that are attracted to the culture, and others still that don't even label themselves, but instead acquired the label from those around them.

I supposed that my personal definition of a "goth" is a group so widely varied in views and beliefs that the only actual commonality among the group is the label itself. People will develop their own views on life and from stereotypes, labels, cliques, and groups which lead into a whole perception of such terminology. If you REALLY wanted to argue it, the true goths were some of the barbarian tribes around during the time before, around and after the collapse of the roman empire... but that's just me being an idiot.

To make a potentially lengthy response incredibly shorter (yes, this is short for me) a goth cannot have any set definition because that would require everyone to adhere to one label. So I guess I was a little wrong about the only thing they have in common being a label; I think that a lot of goths simply develop their own philosophies (however varied or eccentric) and apply them to how they live their lives.

And for future reference, not all goths listen to Marilyn Manson (and while I have some respect for his older music, I've slowly moved on to what I can only deem better music).

-Sean (An atheistic/agnostic/Buddhistic/person with his own basic philosophies developed in part through the influences of others and in part through introspective thought).

PS

I hope that this helped, even if it's just repetition of things people said before.

I suppose since this thread popped up I will respond. Dis, that's the best definition of goth that I've ever heard. My whole thing about goth is as follows: There are some definite definitions such architechture (did I spell that right?), barbarians, and some literature. And some bands. I don't really have anything against calling certain things goth such as clothes because those things are inanimate objects. I never understood why people like trying to pigeonhole people into a certain label. Who the fuck cares what label you supposedly fit under? People like what they like and act how they act. Trying to slap on a label won't change that unless a person likes acting like a stereotype which I can't understand.

Another thing that annoys me is people are saying that goths can appreciate art and beauty. "Goths" aren't the only ones who can appreciate the beauty around us. Plenty of people can have morbid curiousities or understand plays. It annoys me when people seem to say that only a certain group of people can appreciate something. Plenty of people can have attributes that supposedly belong to a certain group. People are like an ocean. Trying to describe them using a label or stereotype is like scooping a handful of water out of the ocean. You may have a bit but there is so much more.

Sorry I just had to put my two cents. I hope this makes some sort of sense.

I live in a state of chaos, which is bordered on the north by a state of confusion, and on the south by a state of insanity. I love all three of them. I hope he doesn't eliminate them.

I myself am both a Christian and a goth, and I feel that you can be both. I used to think that you couldn't be both- that if you're a Christian you can't be a goth, but I've since become at peace with the fact that it is, in fact, possible. You oughta check out this site. www.christiangoth.com

Well, Xnguela, I would suggest that you do some research, either at a library or online to see if there are any religions that seem to have beliefs that you agree with. Believe it or not, I was a Druid for awhile, because it reflected how I was feeling at a particular time in my life- and also because my ex-fiance was. He was a total dipshit who was at first okay with the fact that I was a Christian and then gradually made it clear that it wasn't. Glad he dumped me!