Students challenge ban on Gothic clothing
 

I saw this topic elsewhere and thought I should post it here to see what you guys and girls think of this.

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...WS01/709140350

I just can't believe this shit, that's like we should tell the schools to ban the atheletic wear bearing NBA/NFL/MLB or NHL logos since they are worn by "gangsta" wannabes.

Schools are always going to challenge it, but this pissed me off:

Amaris -- a soft-spoken sophomore who said she'd never been suspended and had never received a grade lower than a C -- argues she has a right to her style of dress. She said her clothing is part of her Wiccan religion, a neo-pagan, Earth-centered faith.

Being Wiccan does not equal dressing goth, never has, never will. Adhering to gothic fashion is a choice, being Wiccan does not have any bearing on how you dress.

Honestly, these kids have a point, but man are they embarrassments to the goth scene. Drawing tears running down your face in black eyeliner, every day? Claiming gothic clothing is part of the Wiccan religion? Where is the lawyer for these kids writing up an intelligent press release so that they don't run their mouths in interviews?

The quote from the school board member seems to indicate that the issue is more with the ridiculous makeup and piercings than with the all-black clothing. Piercing bans are stupid, but common. And quite honestly the makeup that one girl is wearing in the photo *is* distractingly awful. I'm sure they also don't allow ICP makeup, or KISS makeup to be worn every day, because c'mon people...a full face of makeup to sit in math class? It seems like if these kids toned it down just a little there wouldn't be a problem. The right to individual expression only goes so far when you're in high school, like it or not.

True,NachtSorcier it doesn't. The mainstream like to point fingers and say "Goths are either punks/witches/satanist/freaks/blah blah blah and the society believes them. (sigh)
My daughter is a B/B+ student and wears goth clothing to school with no problem. That's the least of my worries now.

But I see LadyLucretia has another point of view on this as I do agree as well.

I guess it's a win/lose situation here.

I lived with the same ban in high school. I was sent home and put in detention multiple times because of dress code violations.

I think if they have a dress code, they might as well institute school uniforms. It's not fair to say *some* students can wear what they want, and other can only wear what they want...if it looks like what the other students are wearing.

Your effectviely setting up a second-class society.

I mean, sure, if you rich you don't mind following the dress code - I have a few outfits I wear to the club, all black DKNY and a few Diesel outfits that are not only goth, but stylish. If you showed up in a nice goth Victorian outfit I'm sure they wouldn't say much either.

What they tend to target is people who wear black jeans/t-shirts. They then try and force these people to wear button up shirts, polos, or khakis.

Thats classism - they aren't just discriminating against the gothic subculture, what they are saying is that you need to dress in a more 'posh' manner - something in a different tax bracket.

I find that offensive. If the school isn't going to pay for such clothing upgrades, then they shouldn't block kids from wearing any outfits to school.

I also totally diagree with LadyLucretia - kids are supposed to be different, to experiment, to become who they are meant to become. If that means wearing makeup daily, then so be it. Who are you to dictate fashion? Who are you to dictate what clothing is distracting? Girls in short shirts with their mid-riffs showing are more distracting that a kid in KISS make-up during math class.

By saying it's ok to discriminate against some students you set the stage for making ok in the childrens minds to create a second class of people, and to discriminate against them for being different.

Your advise to 'tone it down' is probably the worst advise anyone could give them. Might as well say 'go ahead and forget about your hopes and dreams, because you must conform - being different is bad'.

If the ban was across the board, as I said, and a uniform was introduced, thats one thing - telling one group of students to not dress in the manner which becomes them, is discrimination and makes children think, incorrectly, that what they are doing is somehow wrong. It also sets the stage for them to discriminate against others, since they now see in their own lives institutionalised discrimination happening and society not only supporting it, but forcing them to comply.

Amazingly true, hadn't thought about that.

I find that dress-code incredibly bizarre. At my school, back when I was a young'un ( . . . okay, so I'm only 2 years out, but whatever.) the only thing I ever got in trouble for was "unnatural hair colors."

It's so difficult to define what would be considered "gothic-style clothing" that I can't possibly imagine them enforcing that code. If I were that girl I'd make sure the principal marched around the school with me and pulled every other kid in class wearing ANY eyeliner, regardless of where it was on their face, out of class.

The "gothic style" is such a broad and ambiguous term that is ever-changing. Are they going to suspend anyone who wears a black t-shirt to school, too?

I think if I were in that school district I'd make some sort of outlandish getup with, like, PVC piping and cardboard and stuff and basically dress myself up like a huge building sporting gothic architecture. Yay funny protests! :D

I honestly don't understand such a ban. When I was in high school, they tried a ban. They tried to ban Marilyn Manson shirts (and other stuff) because, according to the school officials, he "represented Satan."

About five minutes after I informed them that I myself considered myself a Satanist (and mentioned the terms "separation of Church and State" as "law suit"), they for some reason forgot about the ban they had proposed. Odd...

This is ridiculous. They're essentially blaming a whole subculture for Columbine.

Yes, because if the Columbine kids hadn't been allowed to wear their "spooky" clothes, they never would have shot up the school. And if they take away these kids' "spooky" clothes, none of them will do it.

Real solid logic there.

Hmm well if that is the case then a compromise can be worked out. We'll just have them dress up in higher quality gothwear. Real corsets real clothes, not just a ton of t-shirts like in the picture. Frankly those t-shirts and clothes from the picture arn't the kind of clothes that would make any school district reconsider the anti-goth dress code.

The joy of the fall news cycle...

If the school is public, then they need to evaluate "public decency" standards and have a cohesive policy towards student expression. The ridiculous remarks that goth is a means towards violence would be torn apart in a court of law. For better or worse, public schools need to limit student free speech. It's when that standard is applied inconsistently that there's problems.

That being said, would somebody please tell the girl to shut up about Wicca? She's only hurting her case by making the claim that a non-recognized religion mandates that she wear black, which is bogus anyways. Shouldn't her parents be fielding questions for her? Where is the support network these kids should have?

The thing that angers me the most is some person who made a comment on the website the article was posted on about how everyone in his family were retail managers (by the way, asshole, NO ONE CARES!!) and also about how "those goth kids don't fit the bill to be hired"

How does he fucking know who they are, what they're about, and more importantly, how they would prepare themselves for a workplace! Jesus fuck! Clearly, you would dress differently for a job interview and/or work than you would for school! Especially a PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL.

And I think I saw an emo kid in that picture! If you're gonna fucking ban something, GET AN ACCURATE DEFINITION.

Goddammit anyway.

Kay I'm done now.

:)

I agree that uniforms are more practical than a selective dress code. I disagree about the "classism" argument - Hot Topic charges about the same for bondage pants as preppy stores charge for pre-ripped and faded jeans. And the statement from the school official indicated that it was the makeup and piercings that were the issue, not their clothing.

I don't think excessive makeup is the only distraction that should be banned - I fully think midriff baring shirts, visible underwear, and otherwise provocative clothing is just as inappropriate. I also only said that excessive makeup should be banned (not piercings or unnatural hair color), and this would apply to the makeup football fans/KISS fans/clowns/etc. wear as well as goths, so it's not discriminatory towards any one group.

I was also given dozens of detentions for uniform violations, mostly for hair color. Toning it down would have been the smartest thing I could have done, at least until I was an upperclassman. Standing out only got me singled out as "problem" and basically harassed by school administrators.

I never got in trouble for what I wore to school while I was there; I never really wore anything out of the ordinary.

But, revisiting my high school two years later (I'd judge debate tournaments), I was asked to leave the building on account of my long overcoat (which was previously worn by a Mormon missionary(!)) and studded bracelet. This was before Columbine. Apparently I was corrupting the youth.

There article said that her extreme make-up and lip ring were safety hazards...how the hell is eyeliner all over your face a safety hazard!? Is she going to get acne?

I find it very amusing that most of the comments on this article consist of people talking about how these kids are vying for attention and that they'll never be able to get a "real job." Well, the former is probably true, but since when does what you wear on your own time affect employment? It's not like I'm going to rat my hair and slap on my leather wrist band before a job interview - no, I'm going to comb my hair and put on a tie. Albiet, it'll be a black shirt and a silver tie, but still, it's tasteful.

I just wanted to mention that Wicca is recognized as a religion by the US government. I do agree, though, that the girl in question is an embarrassment to both goths and Wiccans.

Doesn't fit the employment bill??

Are you bloody kidding me? I'm a VALUED employee of an insurance outsourcing company. I go to work in FULL goth regila. There are some days when I tone it down, but that's because I just don't bloody feel like wearing some of my better gear.

Oh and to top it off, I'm one of their best employees. Those managers need to STFU. A wardrobe does not reflect character or a willingness to work. I would imagine that most of these kids have enough sense to pull off at least some kind of "corporate" goth look. And really, what stores are they going to work for? OBVIOUSLY companies have their certain uniforms and such.

This is another off-shoot of the new baggy pants and hoodie bans.

* I have a new thread about this in the politics section, but will add this link...

http://news.**********/s/ap/20070916...nKD5z4j8Ks0NUE

Many major cities have now made it a crime, with large fines and jail time included, for wearing baggy pants or hoodies.

This started with the airports, claiming these clothes could be used to conceal weapons (isn't that what the metal detectors and all those security personnel are for?)

It then spread to sports stadiums, claiming 'terrorists' could use that clothing to hide stuff as well.

Once courts ok'ed the idea that companies, government agencies, and public organisations could ban clothing, once again using the 'terrorist' as a reasoning, it has now spread to other groups.

No coloured hair, no trenchcoats. Why? Doesn't matter - court precedent is set that says if clothing is considered a threat it can be banned.

So, using Columbine as an excuse, the power that be across American have now taken it upon themselves to ban hip-hop clothing, citing terrorist threats, and now goth clothing, also citing terrorist threats as the reasoning.

Much like the cookie-cutter '9/11' answer the politicians use to justify any actions they can't rationally explain, it appears the goth look is now the newest causality in the war on terror.

I mean with the current administration using 'terrorism' to justify everything from the budget, to drilling for oil in Alaska, its no wonder politicians and lower management types are using this excuse to justify whatever it is they want to enforce.

No baggy pants, no colour in your hair, no black clothes - CONFORM...but hey - your FREE! Of course, your freedom is much like your options for wearing clothes in high school - you can do whatever you want, as long as what you want falls in line with the current powers that be.

My bad, I did some research and found that as of 1985, you are correct. That's not too bad for a religion that was only 30 some-odd years old! :-D

Well, she's a teenager, and I think it's ok to be a teenager and an embarrassment to just about anything you identify with. I get the feeling her case is only going to be hurt if she waves the "freedom of religion" flag all over the place, however.

HA! You know, it's starting to get funny watching you get all cause-head over insignificant, little things. I'm going to find you an exclusive about how banana splits discriminate against thin people, so you can tell us how much America sucks because of that, too. DAMN AMERICA AND THEIR OPPRESSIVE ICE CREAM SUNDAES!!!

Seriously though, what you're talking about has more to do with hip-hop culture and the very real pattern of violence that is manifest in that culture. There are also laws being passed because of indecent exposure violations that are common in that culture's fashion trends.

That doesn't justify the legislation that's being passed against it, but it certainly explains a good deal of the outrage. Rules passed against goth fashion are based largely on misconceptions, which makes it far more offensive, in my mind at least.

They actually have a point with the baggy clothes, you can hide various weapons.

Our school banned them after a demonstration to the school board where a kid showed up in baggy pants and a sweatshirt armed with rifles, hand guns, switchblades, and what have you. Of course concerned parents are going to ban anything that is proven to conceal weapons.

Pretty much anything can conceal weapons, but when thrown in their faces like that, parents are easily persuaded. Of course its eventually going to turn into a giant witch hunt trying to find the next virginia tech before anything happens, but in this instance they have a point.

Goth clothes are tight and should therefore be allowed ;)

I suppose I could hide weapons under my skirts. (Inspects skirt she is wearing) Maybe. If it wasn't bulky.

Might tear the fabric though....

The ban of clothing and stereotypes aside, drawing crap running down your face is just ugly.

I don't know why people get so riled up over this...it's clothing. That's all. Not only that, but if this stupid girl is so uneducated about "her own" beliefs, then screw her.

It is true that you can hide a weapon pretty much any where and pretty much anything can be a weapon. So if people wanted they could probably ban pens and pencils in school...

Now, now, she's still young and learning. Let's just shake our heads and mutter about the good old days.

I'm a little embarrassed of her, frankly.

Wow. Florida, deep south. A culture built on conformity and religion. Sigh. Sternn did make some some good points. By singling out just one subculture, the administration has effectively shunted a whole group of people into the outcast position. I consider the decision to outlaw Goth an uneducated one. And please! Yes Columbine was terrible, but the boys weren't even gothic. They just used trench coats to hide their weapons. Speaking of hiding weapons, that clothing ban is just stupid. Next time they try and tell me I can't wear my coat due to "safety" reasons, I;m going to volunteer a strip-search!

To quote Jim David, "Florida's not the south. If you see two alta cockers sitting on a bench and one of them says, 'Well, I used to keep a kosher table but I don't anymore,' that's not the south."

About the baggy clothes and hiding weapons deal...I don't get that. You can easily hide knives, handguns, bombs, drugs, cigarettes, lighters, matches, alcohol and all kinds of things that are against school rules in regular pockets, backpacks, coats and purses. If they really want to prevent weapons students would have to go to school naked.

I mentioned that to my high school principal in reference to the rule that says no bag big enough to carry a textbook can be brought to class and he said that girls have to be allowed to carry purses so they can conceal their "personal products." So, because girls need tampons it's perfectly permissible to allow them purses that can contain a handgun or a knife. There is no logic in schools.

This reply also applies to thedoll who made a similar comment...

Yes, while you are correct there is a definate violence stigmata attached to the baggy clothing, they have used that to ban baggy clothing in cities, airports, and sporting areanas.

However, the same laws have set precendent that now allow them to ban *any* clothing, in this case goth clothing, as long as they cite security as the reason.

It's the proverbial 'slippery slope' - once you establish its ok to discriminate/hold/change/modify or do *something* for one reason, you can legally argue to justify that same action when refering to a similar case.

Here, we see the goth subculture being persecuted under the same laws. They have yet to pass a law barring goth clothing, that being said they have barred trenchcoats in many areas and if your wearing baggy black clothing you find yourself also now challenging the law.

Once you say its ok to stop one group of people from dressing in a manner for any reason you open the floodgates to allowing the government to stop other groups from dressing in a manner if they can establish to a judges liking there is *some* security concern.

With the laws in place, we see hip-hop clothing being made illegal, just like narcotics and explosives. Not the same penalties, but people now *can* goto jail if they wear certain clothing in public, clothing that is worn by a certain subculture, meaning they also have now legalised racial profiling.

This is now directly effecting the goth community. I am willing to be you will see even more of this focused on our community once they take a few cases of baggy clothing to court and establish it as modern law.

Also, a side note - you both claim baggy clothing is dangerous - something I disagree with. Much like making school kids wear khakis and a button up shirt, putting gangsta rappers in button downs does make them any less dangerous. Handguns fit nicely in suits as well. All cops carry multiple guns in suits - many in holsters made to be easily concealed. People get weapons in prison and carry them - in uniforms without pockets.

If a person wants to carry a weapon and use it - baggy clothing is no more helping than the shoes they wear. Sure a pair of cargo shorts might offer more room for yer pistol, but if your going to carry a gun, you will find a way to do it so it's not in plain sight.

This is nothing more than a political maneuver to attack a certain group of people that the powers that be do not like.

There is a huge difference between written law and legal precedent, which is established through case law. I think you'll find that these bans, regardless of which clothing they are about, will eventually be overturned in a high court if they were properly challenged.

Unfortunately, when people make stupid laws, a legal challenge is the only option. Unlike the baggy clothing ban though, I think that you'll find that the ban on goth-associated clothing will have far less legal clout in court, since tight jeans and frilly shirts don't necessarily help conceal weapons.

In a court of law, you would need to prove that the clothing not only can be used to conceal weapons, but also that it is the clothings' primary purpose. Let's not assume just because locals can make dumb laws, that the courts will support them.

1. I doubt the same penalties are applied as narcotics and explosives law.

2. Unless you have a very racist view of hip-hop, this isn't racial profiling.

Not likely, since most laws based around decency tend to be struck down pretty quickly. I don't know of any precedents for public dress codes, but I doubt they'd survive court scrutiny either.

No, I didn't. I said that people associate baggy clothing with violent groups. In either case, I don't support public dress code bans.

Not really; in almost all cases these types bans are created locally by radicals in a community. When these things are brought up on any larger arena, they are quite handily mocked and struck down.

When has it ever been solidly proven that the clothes a child wears will dictate a child's actions? The way a child dresses is an extention of their interests. The clothes are merely an extention. After the Columbine incident, all the "goth" kids, including myself for affiliation with them, were pulled out of class and searched and interrogated. *rolls eyes*

So the children dare to dress "different." So long as they're getting good grades and not becoming delinquints- who cares what they wear. If anything, they should prohibit "hip hop" attire and paraphenalia. Remembering from when I was in high school and on the times I go in to coach high school kids- it's the hip hoppers that pose more of a threat than the gothic kids. If any threat is to be named.

This girl is clearly going through a phase. But that's okay. That's part of being a kid and discovering who you are. I'd much rather see her dressing gothic and claiming her clothes are a part of her religion than dressing as a nasty "preppy" girl and taunting other kids because of their looks.

(By nasty I mean nasty- mean spirited)

I don't think they know that when it comes to things like Columbine, they actually take it with a grain of salt. The general mindset for children over things such as Columbine and the Virginia Tech shootings is, "Eh, sucks, but what do I car? It didn't happen here."

They don't think , "Slayer and Sepultura are Gods! I MUST kill the non-believers in their names."

The crappiest thing about those kids dressing gothic is that most of them get their stuff from Hot Topic and believe that if it's in Hot Topic it's REAL goth.

----------------------------Totally Unrelated--------------------
A couple of weeks ago after I got out of dinner with my girlfriend we hit up the local mall and passed by a Hot Topic store. There was this tiny little 5th grader in an oversized hoodie bundled tight around his diminutive frame and he was just staring at the stuff inside the store. My girl and I were talking between ourselves over how those clothes aren't real gothic and are at best Halloween costumes. Then the little boy chimes in with a tone of superiority and disgust at our comments telling us (with conviction) "It's GOTH!"

Shocked, I turned to him and asked him, "How old are you? What do you know?" To which he replied as he walked away, "I know! I've been here before!" Highly amused I turned to my girl and said, "Oh my! Looks like we've been schooled!" We laughed and moved on.

(^^I just wanted to share ^^)

Amaris -- a soft-spoken sophomore who said she'd never been suspended and had never received a grade lower than a C -- argues she has a right to her style of dress. She said her clothing is part of her Wiccan religion, a neo-pagan, Earth-centered faith.

What bothers me about this statement is not that she's misinformed - a lot of teenagers who explore Wicca go through a fluffy phase, I know I did - what bothers me is that in putting it into a news report sends an inaccurate message to the public of what Wicca is about. The religion already has a bad rap because of misinformation and we don't need more people thinking that Wicca is about looking sp00ky. This is why I hate Laurie Cabot. She claims that her black robes, wild hair and thick black eye makeup is traditional Wiccan dress. She just pulled that out of her ass.

That's SO cute. ^___^

Agreed. I am a member of a very active local Pagan group, and nearly all of the group members dress in pretty "normal" ways or dress more on the hippie-ish side than anything. Myself and two other people are the only members who have a darker style of dress, and I'm the more extreme of the three. Even though there is a correllation between those in "alternative" religions and those who dress alternatively, that doesn't mean that one is the cause of the other. I think this girl is definitely misinformed, but weren't we all at some point? She still needs to be careful what she throws out to the media though, because it isn't helping anyone.

Yup, exactly.

*sigh*

Why does ANYONE make such a huge issue about clothing regardless?

I've always noticed it's the ones who dress conservatively that wants to make an issue first. *shrugs* Fuck it. I feel bad for them. Hopefully logic and common sense will over rule this whole fiasco.

This reminds me of a story I heard from my bus driver.

He was telling me how these 4 guys got on the bus, PISSED OFF to no end... just because someone was in the cemetery dressed as the grim reaper and carrying a sickle.

They had discussed how they were going to shoot the guy in the costume and beat him up. Not because he was being "disrespectful", but because he was different, spooky, and intimidating.

A couple years ago,there was a story on the news about a boy getting his "gothic" makeup banned. The principal said it frightened and distracted other students...and I agreed. He dressed in a normal grey t-shirt and blue jeans but he drew long tears past his mouth in eyeliner everyday. He said he should be aloud to express his gothness or something of the like. He didn't like any of the music and the only gothish thing he had on was the eyeliner...

So in other words, he was actully a "mock" goth. :D

I wonder what would happen if at all the Hot Topics that were in malls we set up a small music koisk in front of it which could expose them to the real thing. I wonder how much of Hot Topic's buisness would be lost because of it.

This type of thing isn't new. When I was in highschool back in the mid 90's (prior to Columbine), I was not only accused of dabbling in the occult (of which I faced expulsion), but was forced to remove my arm warmers because they were deemed as 'gang affiliated' (of course that was only used as an excuse, since I'm certain that gangs would rather hang red or blue bandanas out of their back pockets, than wear black stockings on their arms with black floral accents).

They just had it out for me, and that was clearly obvious. Not sure if that had anything to do with being in a Catholic school system, but making accusations based on the way I looked (especially in regards to religion), is out-right wrong and disrespectful.

Ooooh lookey at me looking all whitchy-like:
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/phot...50813_2032.jpg
http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/phot...50820_3593.jpg

I think people took 'The Craft' far too seriously.

For the record, I'm Athiest.

I went to Catholic high school too, and got yelled at for everything from arm warmers, to little red bows in my hair, and for not wearing my school sweater...when I was wearing my school sweater. They definitely had it out for me, and I don't think it was a coincidence that the only people who'd yell at me regularly were the nuns.

The Catholic school system here is a bit different (unless it's a private institution). They're pretty much the same as the public school system, except you have to take religion, and say a prayer in the morning and at lunch time, etc.

There was no uniform or school sweater, but they did have dress-codes in effect, none of which actually included 'goth' or 'alternative' styles of dress.

I'd allso like to add that the makeup in that photograph is indeed rather hard on the eyes.

I understand that kids should be allowed to express themselves, but c'mon! It's the 2000's! There is no reason to cover your face in tacky eyeliner, when there are perfectly good examples of makeup that actually looks good ALL OVER THE INTERNET.

I never had the luxury of youtube or social networking sites, but thankfully I had enough sense to at least blend my make up rather than draw lines all over my face.

Plus, if they are worried about weapons, you can hide weapons in a bra. Lets ban bras, the schools will get VERY interesting.
I can't believe I'm a chick.

I'm highly amused. ^_^

Who's parents are we trying to please, exactly? One disgruntled parent?

Sometimes, the schools should take up for the students instead of well... meh, whatever. You guys know where I stand on these issues.

But . . . but I actually kinda LIKE Hot Topic. I don't claim that the clothes are the definitive in goth or anything like that . . . hell, I have no idea WHAT the clothes are supposed to be. I just like them because they're 'fun.' That's my catch-all term, by the way. 'Fun.'


I went to a Catholic high school, as well. They were EXTREMELY strict when it came to our uniforms. But everyone wore exactly the same thing, save 'dress-down day.' I remember one casual day in particular. I was in grade 9 or 10 . . . There were two OAC students (their last year before graduating) who were all gothed up. They even brought a black velvet table cloth, elaborate goblets, etc. and set themselves up at one end of the cafeteria (probably just to push the faculty's buttons, I'm sure). We meek and conformist juniors gaped at them in complete and utter awe.

For me I don't really mind if you buy Hot Topic stuff as long as you know what Goth is really about.

One disgruntled parent translates into a hell of a pain in the arse for the school. That one parent will come in constantly and make the most annoying self-righteous calls to the school board at every oppurtunity. They will make the school miserable because they are not getting their way and they never learned to suck it up.

It's getting harder and harder for the school to take up for the students because the parents will make their lives horrid if they don't feel they're being paid enough attention to. At one of my secondary schools, a particularly annoying mother tried to have another student suspended for wearing an ankh. She claimed it was satanic.

I remember the teacher looking at her as she ranted (there were several students present when she stormed in) as though she were mad. Her son looked like he wanted to crawl into a hole and die, poor thing.