Better Music
 

I couldn't believe my eyes...reading this message board is so depressing. System of a Down? Linkin Park? On Gothic.Net? Excuse me, but Goth isn't, and hasn't ever been about mainstream music. It's about finding and appreciating music that the rest of world doesn't listen to. It's not about MTV or the bands Hot Topic sells...although, I work for HT and I appreciate what they're trying for...but I digress. My Chemical Romance, Avenged Sevenfold, Slip Knot, Alkaline Trio, Tool, System of a Down, etc...they're all bands you, if you consider yourself any kind of rebel, should hate with every fiber of your being. You strike out against the norm by dressing differently, but then listen to the music corporate America says you should. They know who you are...they know that mid-western kids with nothing better to do are angry and bored...hello Good Charlotte and cute boys in eyeliner.

While I completely and utterly hate the music that SOAD creates, I do appreciate who they are and the fact that Armenian boys would go out and do anything to diverge from their strict culture.

Expand your ears, search for something better; something with meaning and passion. Be a true rebel and find music worth being different for. The music you listen to says EVERYTHING about who you are.

If you're just listening to loud and obnoxious music to piss off your parents, I take it all back. Be good and pump up the volume.

If anyone has any remote interest in finding different music and jumping out of the mainstream...

Dark Culture Radio: http://www.darkculture.net/podcast
Ghoul School Radio: http://www.deathrock.com
Closed Caskets for the Living Impaired: http://www.closedcaskets.com

There's nothing wrong with liking mainstream bands along with non mainstream bands. Each has their place. I happen to like System of the Down, Korn, Rammstein, Manson and some of the other bigger radio bands - though not many. I also happen to like so many more bands that never got radio time and even few here have heard of. Just because I'm on gnet, though, doesnt mean I'm going to try and be ashamed of what I do like.

I do agree it's good to expand and learn to like new things. I've recently started giving some country music a try. A lot of it is suprisingly accessible and 100 times more depressing then Sisters ever tried to be.

Yeah, but isn't the point of non-conforming...not to conform? Do you agree that the music we listen to defines us? I think that it does...like the books we read and the things we say. Music is who we are. If it's not who you are, you're in the wrong scene. I guess someone who considers themselves Goth or dark listening to country music is the ultimate in non-conforming, but it's pretty scary. Maybe that's the point.

...and BTW, this isn't a personal attack on anyone in particular. In fact, it's not even an attack. Just matter of fact.

You are retarded Cinka.

Being a "Goth" has never had ANYthing to do with music WHAT-SO-EVER. Now shutup about it.

I disagree, Korova. I think that a Goth should have some interest in music as an art form if nothing else.

Cinka-- if you like a band, why not listen to their music? It seems a bit stupid to analyze the popularity of every band before deciding whether you like them or not. Music is not always a statement-- usually it's more like a personal preference. Every once in a while, a band is popular because it is genuinely GOOD.

What would you do if an underground band you loved became mainstream without changing their sound? Stop listening to their music?

I agree that it is terrible to listen to a band simply because they are popular. If you listen to them because you truly like their music and they just happen to be popular, it's completely different.

Alright, gotcha Circle, that is indeed true. Music is a form of art and should be appreciated. Thanx for the correction. I'm just a lit peeved right now.

But then I have to go on the fact that whether music is mainstream or not, it is still music and has the preface to be appreciated.

That's the great thing about it: it's not a matter of fact.

And who says being into gothic styled music is about not comforming? By doing anything in life you are conforming to something because someone has already done it before you. You listen to Bahaus? Well guess what so do millions of others. You wear black and write sad poetry under candle light? Well guess what there's pretty much a whole subculture dedicated to it. By coming across saying "don't listen to that because it doesn't represent this" is expecting others to conform to your idea of whatever "this" is.

I'm expecting that you're still in your teens... not a bad thing but that's where the perspective comes from. I remember when I felt the music I listened to did define who I was and who my freinds were, clothes I wore, places I went, etc.

You define who you are by what you do. The music you listen to you have chosen because it moves you in a way that other music doesn't. The music doesn't make you like it. It doesn't define you. Someone created that in hopes that someone LIKE you would enjoy it.

For me, I'm finding that as I get older I can better understand and appreciate more varying types of music. It doesn't define me. I simply find more music more enjoyable than I did before. There is a ton of music that I used to love but now simply cannot listen to at all. People change and grow and hopefully learn and expand. You will too :)

so... listening to rap automatically makes you gangsta and listening to the cure makes you goth? I don't think so. The music was created by the people, not the other way around.

hi jane!
*waves :D



ummm...has anybody noticed that most of the long time and well respected members of this forum are not actually "goths".
the only people on here that call themselves "goths" are the silly noobs who insist that to be "goth" you must mope, sulk, think about suicide, wear black and only black, listen to a certain type of music and under no circumstance are you allowed to smile or god forbid......... laugh.

do some reseach babe, this was a web-zine for horror writing hence the name.
this site does not follow the "gothic commandments", nor does it want to!
*where is that ignore button?

I just read what Cinka said....so, listening to The Cure (The Cure being a well known band) Doesn't make me a friggin goth?!?!

*scratches off face*

Ah...Now I'm covered in blood with half a face, I'm definitely Non-Mainstream now!

Ok. Let's see if I can tackle this.

I never said anything about The Cure. Or did I?

There is no such thing as TRULY non-conforming. Even if you gave up everything and moved into the forest, changed your name, and lived in a log cabin...it's been done and people do it. By non-conforming, as a "general" statement, you are diverging from the norm...which is what Goths do. I don't know how true that is anymore, but it used to be true. Hell, homeless people are non-conformists...they separate themselves from society. That's another topic, so let's not start a tangent.

Yes, Goth is about the music. Are you kidding? I know some people like to say it's a state of mind and it's about art, etc. But Goth wouldn't be Goth without the music, without the bands that defined a generation. It is about the music first and foremost. Everything else is supplemental.

I used to write for Gothic.Net - I understand it's a horror zine, but it's also called "Gothic.Net" which leads thousands of "Goths" (or similarly interested parties) to the site every day. It was started by people who, once upon a time, considered themselves Goth or at least a part of the scene.

I never said "don't listen to these bands" - I merely commented on making an attempt to find underground music - which wasn't necessarily targeted to anyone in particular, so I don't see how anyone could be upset.

I listen to quite a few popular bands, but because music is important to me, if I see that a band's music is affected by money and fame, I move on. There are so many great bands out there that need your support and make WAY better music than what you hear on mainstream radio. It's a choice, support bands that actually care about music or give more money to rich bastards who make crap simply because they're under contract. And yes, every band is capable of selling out when given the opportunity. Some handle it better than others, however.

There is no finite definition for who or what a Goth should be. I never said anyone is stupid or retarded for listening to the music they like. We're all allowed to be who we want to be and listen to the music we want to. If I wanted to shoot heroine, I could, but it wouldn't be wise...well, plus it's illegal, but you get the point.

No doubt someone silent will come across this post, see the links I've posted, check them out, and find something they like. That was the purpose. Not for the loud-mouths that have to have their hand in every pseudo-controversial post; that get upset anytime someone says something they don't agree with. Naturally I expected at least ONE person to call me retarded and several others to read WAY too deep into what I was saying.

And yeah, this is a forum for Goths...whether you personally consider yourself one or not. There are plenty of horror sites that don't have "Gothic" in their title.

Now that I've turned myself into the bad guy, I'll take my leave...for now.

What we like DOES define us. Whether or not you are willing to stand up for what you like and not care what other people think is you own decision. Liking only bands that aren';t mainstream BECAUSE they aren't mainstream makes you a poser in my eyes. If you only care what people think about how you dress and act and the things you like, then you have alot of growing up (and living) to do.

Like what you like because you enjoy it, and it makes you happy. Not because it's on "The Mistress's list of acceptable Goth interests." Standing up for yourself whether people agree with you or not... to me, is more Rebellious than searching for something no ones heard of before just for shock factor.

I like alot of non-mainstream bands, but my favorite band just hit mainstream in a big way in 2003. I still love them and listen to them more frequently than any other band. People give me crap all the time, but I couldn't care less.

I wish people wouldnt join messageboards just to complain all the time. If you want a 'perfect' gothic message board Cinka, then go and create one yourself. Write a list of what goths should do and what they shouldnt, see who exactly agrees with you then.
I love the Pet Shop Boys.
But yet I am a fan of Bauhaus, they are from my home town AND i'm going to see them live in February. You can't argue that either way.

Cripes! I just said I listen to quite a few mainstream bands...ah, forget it. I'm coming to think that people don't actually read message boards, but scan and look for key words to react to. I also said that when a band's MUSIC is affected by money and fame, I move on. When the MUSIC is affected, not merely because they're mainstream. Geez.

I'm worried that you think I'm a poser. This really upsets me. Wait, no it doesn't.

Music, the things we read, the things we say and do, the clothes we wear, they define us. Insignificant posts on message boards do not. It's who we are in REAL life and how we treat others that matters.

The truth is, I'm not a bad person or an asshole. I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion. That's the great thing about the internet, people are allowed to speak their minds, face opposition, and deal with it accordingly. However, when things resort to name calling, it's probably time to find something else to attend to.

Catch ya later.

This is what I was replying to, and probably what angered several of the others. This passage consists entirely of you telling us what music we should not listen to. Tool happens to be one of my favorite bands. I liked them in Bolivia, where no one knew who they were, and I like them now.

Your first post, since it isn't addressed to anyone in particular, could be interpreted as being addressed to everyone here. For that reason, many of the posters here thought you were either insulting their tastes in music or mistaking them for conformists. You later clarified, but the seeds were already planted.

Message boards *are* real life. You are a real person transmitting real messages to real people.

Music tells you all you need to know about a person's musical preferences. It can tell you more, but often it does not.

Otherwise, I agree with your (revised and clarified) point. The response to your message was far too harsh, though I think that you are being a bit too defensive.

I don't mean to be preachy but there seem to be an awfully great deal of easily offended contributors on these boards. Many of whom seem to take everything said which is negative as a personal insult, regardless of the context. This can flood a given post on a relevant topic with pointless "you hate me" posts until the original point of it all is drowned. While I understand that it is the right of the contributors to ostracize at will, and that it's even necessary, I don't think it's always in the best interests of exchanging ideas.

I think it can be safely assumed that most people who start a rant are emotionally high strung at the time. I propose that perhaps they should be excused for thier generalizations. Most people make generalizations, and I daresay there isn't a one among us who can know everything required to avoid making them even by accident.

Further, a person's entitled to thier opinion, even a poorly concieved one, and some have reasons for those opinions that stems from personal expierience which would be quite burdensome and really unnecessary to explain. Peoples bias and opinions are a part of who they are, even more so than the music they listen to. -Preaching Over-

-On Topic Post- I sympathize with Cinka to the extent that I rarely hear of new bands from any but my most individualistic friends. Unfortunately it rather seems that MOST of the Goths I meet randomly in the populace are not very individualistic.

I think what Cinka is driving at from a musical angle is something that bothers most of us. That "Goth" is becomeing "Mainstream" bothers some folk because if it does then it's just like any other conformist subculture where agreeing with the group and actively identifying with them by way of clothing, music, hairstyle etc is a requirement of joining. Sooner or later you won't have to buy into the subculture to join it, you'll just have to emulate it.

When this happens people are just trying to fit in, which if you recall was exactly what being Gothic is NOT about. Thoughts?

The hell it is. You notice how there's not a syle of music called "New Romantic', Cinka? That's what goths used to call themselves.... they dropped the name and changed it to goth when that's what somone labeled The Bauhaus' music. So there were obviously goths before there was gothic music, gothic fashion, and even the phrase "goth". The music was created BY THE PEOPLE, the people WERE NOT CREATED BY THE MUSIC. There has to be a person, an audience, an artist before there can be art.

Whatever the hell. I'm tempted to up and leave again...

Hi Mortalitas. I like you (^.^ still do ^.^), but I call myself a goth. If someone asks me, yeah I'm a goth. It's just stupid to scream it from the rooftops because it doesn't matter and no one cares.

I agree with cinka. Although, you can like different music. Why the fuck do you have to bring this crappy mainstream music on the boards. I have a problem with it because this is a site about gothic culture. Not the bands that people like and think its goth. If you ask me alot of you are pretty damn ignorant when it comes to music taste. If you like the music, good for you but I think that you should give the REAL music that is in the culture a chance, because if you dont you are not even considered goth. Infact alot will give you the "Your a poseur" insult.

Thanks Rockand Rose...

Vampirekitten, I hate to be like this, but that's not true. I think you're one who only has a superficial understanding of the culture. The music is only neccessary to be part of the "scene", and there are plenty of people who like goth music without being goth.
Holey crap, it's goth with a sledgehammer time...
http://blood-dance.net/goth/grant.html

People are telling ME to do my research? Yikes. Jane, it's not important how long I've been in the scene, what I do, and how I promote it's genuineness (cause I do), but, respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about.
There is indeed a style of music called "New Romantic". Ever hear of Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet, Blancmange, Soft Cell, OMD, Japan, Modern English? Or do you refer to them simply as 80's bands? Sorry, that was rude.

Cinka, while I appreciate your opinion and you're obvious passion for it, it seems to me that you are focusing on the wrong thing, here. You seem to be determined to point out that the music you listen to defines you, which it does not, and you seem equally obsessed with the labeling of said music and 'scene'.

Why are these labels so important? Why do you need yourself to be defined by such trivial things such as what CD is in the player or what color your socks are? It simply makes no sense for an individual as seemingly intelligent as yourself to adhere to such limitations of self definition.

I do agree that music, dress, hangouts and all the like are very important to us. We go to places with an atmoshere we like that plays music we like where other people that like similar things can go and share the experience together. I also agree that our world MUST place a label on everything and so the label for our general music and dress style is "Goth". I will also go so far as to agree that FAR too many, especially the young, do percieve themselves as nothing but a participant in the, for lack of a better term, Goth scene, and in a sense DO define themselves as Goth Goth and nothing but Goth. I, and many others here, see this as frustrating and very unfortunate.

Participate with what you like, listen to what you like, read and write what you like - and if all these things are limited only to media defined "Goth" then so be it - I'd say that's very sad but you are your own person. Irregardless, if nothing else, please understand that the things you like and the way you dress do not define who you are. You may be labeled by others by what they see but that does not define you. Think about where all of these labels come from - think about how many labels out there actually fit you - now think that if a label placed on you defines who you are how are you ever going to choose which label it is?

BRAVO!

Manimal, thankyou for pointing that 'Goth' is not purely based on music!

I never said you were a poser nor did I call you a name. I simply stated my view on the topic at hand, and under what criteria I consider people being fake. I don't like to pass judgement on people, as I myself do not care to have people do it to me. I've known quite a few people who would only like underground music because only "posers" liked things that people had heard of. To me they were so obsessed with posers and not being one, they actually BECAME one. I'm sorry my post came across as me attacking you Cinka. I hadn't meant it to.
:)

First off, this board's always been filled with people talking about the latest semi-dark fascination in music, whether Marilyn Manson back in the day to System of a Down to everything in between. It's always been like this, and there's always been a concerted effort to yell at those people.

You know what a better idea might be? Actually talking about the bands you like. Starting threads about it. Encouraging discussion. It's really easy to react. But it's about as pointless as the "OMG! SOAD!" posts.

I could not disagree more. First off, how you treat anonymous people and how you approach debate with people whose opinion you ostensibly do not care about is a lot more telling than how you care your loved one.

Second off, everything you do in your life reflects who you are and defines you. There is no effort that is superior to any others. Everything you say defines you. That doesn't stop just because you're talking to people you don't know.