Gothic.net Community - Gender roles and child rearing

Gothic.net Community (https://www.gothic.net/boards/index.php)

- Spooky News (https://www.gothic.net/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=14)

- - Gender roles and child rearing (https://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=15567)

Gender roles and child rearing

I'm so sorry for the poor grammar and word choice for this article, the English article is pretty sensationalist and doesn't quote the parents much, but just some psychologist who compares it to David Reimar, and saying the kid might suffer mental illness later in life, the comments range from "thats kinda cool" to "Thats child abuse," basically missing the whole idea of what the parents are trying to do:
http://www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/

So I found the original Swedish article and used Google translation. A friend of mine did a better translation but "some guy I know" probably isn't the best source to quote, so here's the original:

http://translate.google.ca/translate...%3Den%26sa%3DG

Quote:

You will meet 2.5-year-old Pop and the father Jonas, 24, in a park and asked if Pop is a girl or boy you get the answer: "I have chosen not to tell me what my child's sex", by Jonas.

You ask Pops mother Nora, 24, she answered the same. Even when Pop was in the stomach, she decided that she would not tell anyone about her child was a boy or girl.

- Then it felt like I was the first on earth to come to this. But later, we have heard and read about others who made who we are.

Jonas was immediately with the plan. He wrote a letter which he sent to friends and family in which he explained how they were going to do.

- "What was it?" Is the first question you get when you had children. I wanted to prepare the surroundings because I did not want to discuss our decision directly, when Pop was newborn.

But why do you not tell me about Pop is a boy or a girl?

- We want to Pop growing up suitors and avoid being forced into a gender-specific template from the beginning, "said Nora.

- As long as we can keep the Pops gender neutral to avoid Pop be affected by how people respond to a boy or a girl. Can I protect my child from becoming instoppat into a slot, I want to do it, "says Jonas.

It was during gymnasietiden which they both, in separate quarters, came in contact with feminism ideas and deliberately began to reflect on questions of sex and gender. But, want both Jonas and Nora stress, Pops sex is no big secret. There is nothing that is taboo or hush. Pop himself is fully aware of what's between their legs and their parents have talked to Pop that all children have either a snip or a snipp. And in addition Pop, Jonas and Nora know even a handful of people among friends and family, who had been babysitting, and changed the diaper, what Pop has for sex. But Nora and Jonas itself never says he or she or Pop, but always Pop.

- For us this is not a big deal anymore. When I was pregnant I lived very theoretically with the issue and thought and talked a lot about it, but now - this is normal for us. Point, "says Nora.

How is it to talk about this in front of Pop when people ask?

- I am calm and secure when I talk about it and know Pop and is also quiet, "says Jonas.

- When Pop was a baby so asked everyone all the time if it was a boy or girl, but it does not happen so often anymore when Pop is so great. People guess instead and find it embarrassing to ask, "says Nora, and recognizes that not all the days she can explain and go into a discussion.

Then she let people have their idea but that neither confirm nor deny whether they have the right in its assumption that Pop is a boy - or a girl. People usually guess what Pop has been on for days. Pop, who by their parents described as a confident and stable person who takes the life, often determines the self which clothes to be on. The closet is a wide range of colors and garments. Some days it will be other days and dress pants. Frisyrer varied also.

Both Nora and Jonas find that most have been positively surprised by their answers that they do not want to tell what their children have sex.

- Many are spontaneously excited and think it's fresh. Many say they will do the same thing when they have kids. Many people have never reflect on gender, but now forced to think about it. And will someone provoked so they rarely say anything. People are very afraid of conflict, "says Jonas.

Those who become agitated are mainly peers feminists.

- They think we should tackle the problems surrounding sex that is, instead of avoiding them. Sure, it is possible to explain the injustice and inequality for a small child, we do, but we are surrounded by so many ignorant people and the massive pressure from the environment affects one's children. Our approach creates a free and neutral world of Pop, "says Jonas.

- I too am full of ideas about sex, but our choice has helped me to deal with Pop neutral. For me, Pop is not a girl or a boy but just Pop, "says Nora.

Their choice is unusual and contrary to the usual standards of society. Is it an experiment with a child who is unable to say from?

- No, this is no experiment. I think it is very dodgy to place a man in this world with a note on your forehead that says pink or blue. Then we really decided that the exterior is most important and said yes to that society is having and molds the child into the sex as it is physically. I believe that sex is a social construction, "says Nora.

- Pop is safe and strong in their identity. We see that Pop developed and well in this. We want to be Pop, and be, the Pop is, "says Jonas.

But playing these first years a lot of emphasis on the Pop then for the rest of his life living and countered that the boy or girl who is Pop?

- I think the self-confidence and personality Pop designed will be included in the rest of their lives. If Pop then choose to be extreme one way or the other is not the point. I think we have helped Pop to develop their own strength, "says Nora.

Jonas and Nora were young, 21 years, when they became parents. Both have chosen to work half-time - Jonas with music and Nora with the picture - to be able to spend as much time as possible together with Pop that does not go to any preschool. They opted out of day care has nothing to do with gender to do - even if they do not think preschool is sufficiently gender sensitive - but with more of their own bad experiences of the nursery and find groups of children today are too large.

- The Pop do not go to kindergarten provokes actually more than that we are not talking about what Pop has for sex. How radical people are, it seems all be for kindergarten. Many say that Pop will not learn to adapt to society, but I think it's tragic if it is the nursery will be for, "says Nora.

- Many people think we just sit at home with Pop, but Pop is with us and meet many people, both children and adults. There is so much that I want to show Pop. I would never get to do if Pop was in kindergarten all day, "says Jonas.

When will you tell me what Pop has sex?

- It may Pop decide. We are here and see what Pop feel good and what Pop himself wants. Already Pop started to talk about their physical sex, "says Nora, which, together with Jonas expecting a new child in August.

They will do the same with two. That is to say, raise a child, not a boy or a girl.

Footnote: Pop, Nora and Jonas's real name is something else.

So, in a nutshell, all they are doing is not telling anyone whether their child is a boy or a girl. "Pop" (not the kid's real name but the one used for the article) gets to decide whether or not Pop wants to wear a dress or pants, what toys to play with, and only Pop, the parents, and a few who changed Pop's diapers know what sex Pop is, and when Pop is ready to tell people what Pop is, its his/her choice to do so. The secret will be known eventually, its not something that can be hidden forever, but it is interesting to attempt to raise a child outside the gender binary until the child is ready to let people know.

I find this very interesting, Saya. I've always thought that gender roles are forced on children too much from the start and this shows an interesting case.

"'I believe that sex is a social construction,' says Nora."

I do so love the expression "I believe". It conveniently announces that whatever follows is complete bullshit and that the speaker knows it to be complete bullshit.

Biology is biology. If you want to challenge the stereotypes that we overlay upon that biology, challenge the stereotypes as stereotypes, and stop trying to pretend that up is down, black is white, and a penis is a vagina.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake Dun (Post 546047)

Don't forget though that this is a shitty translation, she more than likely meant "gender", which rather than physical sex would mean the sex one identifies with, and in feminist circles yeah it is believed that women are not by nature passive and men are not by nature aggressive, for example, but we often embrace it as natural and anyone outside those gender norms are at best exceptions to the rule, when in reality its really hard to say whats natural and whats learned because we do treat people differently based on both sex and gender, even people who aren't sexist do it without realizing.

Given the... somewhat erratic nature of the translation, I can't really have a proper opinion on what's going on in the article.
However, assuming I've picked it up correctly and what the parents are doing is simply trying to raise a child as a child instead of as Boy/blue/trucks or Girl/pink/dollies, I definitely like it. Gender roles do seem mostly to be social constructs- we're finding this more and more as women and men get to choose their clothing and work. Men can cook, rear children, take secretarial work. Women can run banks, drive bin lorries, fix electrical cables.

Things do remain fairly polarised for kids, though. There are thousands upon thousands of different types of pretty little pink makeup sets for girls, thousands of Action Man toys and accessories for boys. If you're looking for a toy for a kid and you ask a store assistant, they'll usually ask 'is it for a boy or a girl'? and direct you to the dinosaurs or my little ponies accordingly.
Having small cousins and friends with kids, I've come up against quite a few difficulties in explaining that the little girl I'm buying for actually really likes volcanoes and toy cars, and I only wanted to know if THIS product or THIS product was safer for a kid her age.

Raise the kid so that it can play with any toy it wants, wear any colour it wants. Let it work out for itself if either of the serious gender roles appeals, or if it would rather just play with Barbie and the tow-truck.
Just hope that the other kids in school, when it gets to that age, don't pick on it for wearing boys' clothes one day and girls' clothes the next- kids can be a bit cruel sometimes.

Saya:

Quote:

but we often embrace it as natural and anyone outside those gender norms are at best exceptions to the rule, when in reality its really hard to say whats natural and whats learned because we do treat people differently based on both sex and gender, even people who aren't sexist do it without realizing.

This is a really interesting topic. I experience this at least once or twice a week, working in the street almost all day everyday and sometimes people's yards. Men will often (upon witnessing me wrangling a shovel/pick/allen key (sp?) and trying to open a lid/grate) ask if I need a hand. Or they just try and do stuff for me. If they only thought about it for a moment they might realise that it's my job and I do it every day, but they are usually old fellas and I guess when they see a girl trying to lift something heavy it's a natural reaction for them to try and help.
I'm still friends with the guy who did my job before me and we were actually talking about this a couple weeks ago when I mentioned that blokes often ask if I need help. My friend laughed and said he wished they'd done the same to him sometimes but he'd never once been asked if he needed a hand.
And from another perspective, my brother is always asking people if they need help with whatever they're doing, regardless of their age or sex. Women sometimes have a go at him for it. Only one man has ever refused his offer and been nasty to him about it.

What a fascinating experiment! If anything will help us understand the bonds of gender a little better, it will be this child.

In the '50's women were placed into molds to become Betty Crocker and have slim waists and organized homes, and even now there are women who believe the lies sold for money on television that their own bodies are too plump or fat, and that men are not virile unless they wash out those white hairs or drive a certain car.

To be liberated from gender must inherently grant more freedom of self expression and self identity ("in touch with one's feminine side").

On the other hand it may restrict which restroom one can use. :)

It's not right to use a kid like this.

You don't have to totally confuse and alienate a child in order to keep from forcing it into a given gender role.

Once the child figures out that his/her genitals are the same as either a boy's or girl's, [s]he will probably start to sway toward that gender's stereotypes on his/her own anyway.

With the translation it is hard to be sure but I got the impression that the kid knows what sex it is (as they said the kid know the difference between males and females) and they did make it clear that there was no intention to force the child to keep this a secret and that this will not continue forever. The whole thing is based on the idea that the child will learn the difference between the two sexes but with no attention paid (by the parents) to gender, after all gender and sex are not the same thing. Plenty of kids have been raised in a gender neutral environment, this just takes things a very small step further by actually continuing the gender neutrality outside of the home by not telling others the sex of the child.

As a side note I was very surprised to see David/Brenda mentioned and not John/Joan as the latter is by far better documented and more widely known.

If people who knew Pop were aware of his/her gender, they might subconsciously press a gender role on to Pop. Pop's parents want to raise Pop gender-neutral, so by not telling anyone Pop's gender, they can be sure that everything stays gender neutral.

From personal experience, I know how difficult it is to have relatives who expect you to play inside with a doll instead of climbing trees or rough-housing with your male cousin. I also know how stressful traditional gender roles are for a transgendered individual.
While such an extreme form of gender-neutral parenting might be too much for a young child, I can definitely understand the "why".