15 dead as Israel boards Gaza-bound ships
 

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0531/mideast.html

http://tinyurl.com/2vsltqf

A couple of notable people were on those ships. No word yet if they were killed or injured. As the second article points out - 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire of Northern Ireland, European legislators and Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein.

Also on the boat were many EU Parliament members from Ireland, Belgium, Germany, and a few other countries, some top U.N. officials, and even members of the israeli parliament who are opposed to the blockade.

I guess we wait as the details trickle out to see who are among the dead.

It just shows that israel is willing to open fire on unarmed civilians, even visiting heads of state, without provocation.

Hey, they're even more paranoid than deadman. I doubted that was even possible.

Beat me to it. The Chuckle Brothers were aboard. If anything has happened to them I will flip a shit.

Well, there will be much tongue wagging about this, and perhaps even a little saber rattling. But will the countries that have long called themselves allies to Israel as the Israelis have gradually become more intolerant and militant (!) do anything of substance to register their horror at this further outrage? I doubt it.

The U.S. won't do anything because the Jewish Lobby is too powerful, and I recall reading in Tip O'Neil's autobiography "Man of the House" that the Jewish Lobby was something like the third most powerful lobby in Washington D.C.

Do we have any details about what actually transpired, leading up to the shooting?

Bring forth the details.

Not so unarmed civilians, it seems. Most people have seen the video footage put forward by the protesters that shows the aftermath of the boarding of the Mavi Marmara, with civilians in various states of injury receiving medical treatment. But here are two videos released by the Israeli Navy that purport to show the boarding in progress. The first is an overview, while the second is more closeup side view shot from a nearby ship.

Demonstrators Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers Attempting to Board Ship

Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers

The Israelis allege that the protesters escalated the violence first, using wooden clubs, pipes, knives and other weapons to attack the boarding Israeli soldiers. I first saw this footage on MSNBC, and it clearly does show protesters clubbing the soldiers and throwing one overboard. One could guess this footage might be fake, but on the face of it this seems unlikely.

The debate will continue and it will probably remain a "who started it" debate, but in my mind it is not so clear cut now. Israel did have a right to board that boat.

And if I was in the war room of the protesters, brainstorming on what could be done to break the Israeli stranglehold on the port of Gaza, this is a plan I might propose ... a suicide mission with some willing martyrs to make the world turn on Israel.

The big picture question though is this: Is the Israeli blockade of Gaza in their own self-interest? The blockade has been in place for over 3 years, and what has it created? Now, instead of having a region of hostile intent on their border, they have a region on their border with one of the densest populations of people living in some of the worst poverty conditions on the planet. Is there any way that this generates anything other than further anger and animosity towards Israel?

Trouble is, short scenes like this could have been shot at any point during the action, and don't show us how the fighting began.

Frankly, I find the blockade absolutely sickening. Israel has long since lost any moral high ground they could once have claimed through their actions towards civilians since 2006 alone, and it's only going to get worse until the international community grows a pair and judges them by the same standards it applies to other first world countries. There's right and wrong on both sides, but Middle Eastern animosity could be quelled a hell of a lot if Israel cut down blatant human rights violations and war crimes of the kind which would not be tolerated or treated with insulting apologism if they came from anywhere else in the first world.

Yuli Edelstein, Isreali Minister of Public Affairs, was interviewed on Morning Joe on MSNBC this morning. I expected everything he said to be pro-Israel propaganda. But two things he mentioned bear looking into.

First, he said that the Israeli soldiers peacefully commandeered 5 out of the 6 flotilla ships without incident. On those 5 ships no one was hurt, no weapons were fired, the takeover and inspection of the ship went exactly as planned. But on the 6th ship the soldiers were met with aggressive hostility from protesters bearing baseball bats, axes and knives.

And second, he said that Israel spoke with the government of Turkey (both publicly and privately) to dissuade the protesters from this venture before it set off, and Egypt even volunteered to be a middle man to move the humanitarian aid to Gaza directly through Israel to avoid incident. However, the protesters stated publicly that their aim was to 1) go to Gaza and 2) break the blockade. So the flotilla organizers weren't interested in bringing aid to Gaza, they were interested in breaking the siege.

As I said, that could all be propaganda, but it seems like those two statements could be investigated and verified.

I watched the news coverage on CBS and NBC for the past two days. It's no wonder Ben and other Americans have the view they do of the incident. It was so one sided, slanted, and bias there is no other opinion that you could get from it.

I am encoding the Irish news today and uploading it to YouTube. I will post a link here. It has many more details, accounts from the people there first hand, and lots of other pertinent information the American news is omitting. I will follow up after that post with a more detailed list of what is being censored in America, but to watch the news here in Europe and what they are saying in America is almost like watching two totally different incidents.

I'm betting if Americans actually saw what happened and had the full facts that their opinion would not be so close to what you are saying there Ben, which seems to be the opinion of many Americans right now.

More to come...

Actually Sternn, what position is it you think I've taken here?

I think you've severely misread me. Or, as it seems like you do with most people you respond to here, you've only read parts of my post.

Do you have ADD or ADHD?

Because you shouldn't post such long posts if you're not willing to read other people's posts completely before you respond to them.

Alright, let me clarify four points with you.

1) In less than 24 hours the Israeli footage of the incident on youtube had received over one million views. That's not an American statistic, that's a worldwide statistic.

2) I scan Fox news on occasion for perspective, frequently check out BBC News, ABC News and other sources but enjoy the reporting on a couple of MSNBC programs the most ("Morning Joe" and "The Rachel Maddow Show") because I'm a U.S. political junkie. And based on what I've seen on those programs most Americans have taken a knee-jerk anti-Israeli view. And in light of the headlines that people were killed, that is understandable.

So the American public reaction in general to the Israeli assualt on the protesters at this point is horror and outrage, focused on the Isrealis.

How is that different than the initial reaction of the peoples and governments of other countries?

3) If you misunderstood me, I was just saying that it may not have been as one sided as you portrayed, and there needs to be an investigation before we muster our moral outrage. There are a lot of questions that need to be asked. Did the protesters have baseball bats and some other weapons that are alleged? Is there any reasonable explanation for why you would have baseball bats on a boat that is certain to be inspected by the Israelis looking for weapons? Why did the Israelis use live ammo? Was the protesters' aim to incite violence in order to curry worldwide political pressure on Israel as the protesters prior public statements seem to suggest is possible? A lot of questions need to be asked. That's what I'm saying.

I also made the point early on that the blockade of Gaza makes no sense, including the fact that it does not even serve Israel's own self-interests in the long run. Did you miss that?

4) Before you lecture me about where I'm getting my facts from and suggest your going to be able to provide us with reporting from a more reliable source, you might check your sources.

* You claimed the Israelis opened fire on unarmed civilians. Regardless of what events transpired on that boat, it's clear the passengers were not unarmed.

* The news report you cited claimed 15 people had died. Every source I'm seeing is reporting the number of dead is 9.

So I'm wondering if YOU have the full facts. Maybe if you had all the facts, your opinion might be just a subtle bit different. Oh wait, I forgot ... you're automatically predisposed to be anti-Israel in all things, aren't you?

I gotta side with Ben here Sternn. Nowhere in this thread has anyone had a knee-jerk, pro-Israel reaction. What you're seeing is people wanting more facts about the incident before they make up their minds.

As you have said, news can be highly slanted, and what you post here is no exception. (This is why I've referred to some of it as radical left-wing propaganda on occasion.)

Wanting to have a cool, logical outlook on an emotionally and politically charged situation is no vice.

Got em online now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe8GpFb-XgQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9jAlw4wl5c

Sternn, I've watched them both. First, there wasn't anything I hadn't seen in the reporting I've seen from good sources here, but your reporting was missing some critical information, such as the fact that the flotilla was partially funded and supported by IHH, a Turkish organization which the CIA and international research organizations have linked to Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations, that has been particularly militant in it's opposition to Israel (they have called for armed terrorism against Israel.)

Also, you have a lot of nerve criticizing the U.S. reporting as being biased and slanted and then putting those two clips up as if they are examples of neutral and balanced reporting. The first one focused nearly half it's time on showing protesters around the globe and various government officials making pronouncements of condemnation before they have all the facts. And the report did have a bias of it's own (it's almost impossible to find any major network reporting without some kind of bias.)

And the second clip was a reporter who already had his mind made up about the facts, was repeatedly badgering the Ambassador with repeat questions because the Ambassador's answers didn't fit the reporters premise and was naive in his continued assertions that since the boats were solely going to Gaza for humanitarian purposes the Israelis had no business boarding those ships. That wasn't an interview ... that was an editorial!

Watch this for a little more balance and a nuanced inspection of some facts that are available so far that you might not have learned from your Irish television:

Israeli Flotilla Raid Controversy (VIDEO) - featuring Fred Kemp, President of The Atlantic Council and Michael Oren, Isreali Ambassador to the U.S. on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" program.

Also, one other minor note: U.S. Secretary of State Clinton made a statement that "the U.S. supports the UN's condemnation of the Israeli Raid." Based on history and the politics of the region, I wouldn't expect any stronger reaction from the U.S. government than that at this time.

As I've said earlier in this thread, there needs to be further investigation.

Jeez - every time I think Sternn and I could do that comic book hero dark alliance thing, he goes and pulls this crap.

Dude, you make agreeing with you even in principle embarrassing.

Another one - just got it done...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcjhQ366rGQ

Tomorrow is the big day - tis when the Irish ship is going through!

The CIA links everyone to terrorism. You are talking to a man who was pulled off a plane by men in black and was almost renditioned. I work with many groups, and meet every year with members from Hamas, ETA, and other organisations that are considered 'terrorist'. I worked to bring men who were held in Gitmo for years to Ireland to speak and tell their side of events and what really happens there. The term 'terrorist' is bandied around by Americans these days so much it has lost all meaning. If you Google the word you will find page after page accusing Obama of being a 'terrorist' or having 'terrorist' ties. To use that as any justification to attack unarmed civilians, including women and children, is farcical, unless your the kind of person who supports that sort of jackboot thug action.


I agree there should be an investigation as well, but lets look at the facts on the ground - the people on the boat were not just a bunch of Arab 'terrorists' as the American media has suggested. They included people from 35 countries, 8 from Ireland, members of various EU parliaments, the Israeli parliament, Nobel Laurettes, U.N. Human Rights workers, and famous writers. They also had BBC and Al Jezerra reporters and camera crews on board.

So far israel has confiscated all of their gear and had a complete media blackout. Last night the first Irish who were on the ship came home and gave more details on what happened. They are supposed to give a press release later today with even more details.

The ship in question was loaded with donations from Ireland. Unlike American news, the Irish news has followed this story for weeks before it happened. We watched as members of the Dáil (our Congress) sat dockside with that very ship as they loaded the humanitarian goods. We watched it leave Cyprus live on the news here. Our Taoiseach (President) Brian Cowan was on the news talking of this humanitarian aid that was sent with full support of Ireland, the EU, the U.N., and many other EU countries specifically.

U.N. Inspectors went over the ship before it left, along with other human rights groups to make sure there would be nothing that would cause an incident.

It's the back story which we have that ye never got. I'm betting none of ye even heard of the flotilla until you heard about the aftermath. Here, it was a national media event for weeks prior, as it was in many other European nations.

To see it attacked, along with the humanitarian activists we saw and heard interviewed for weeks prior is an outrage to the whole EU who backed this mission.

More importantly, what many are also missing, is the main point of the mission - the people of Gaza. 1.5 Million people are living in rubble with little or no food, no electricity, no running water. 750 thousand of those people are under the age of 16. Of the other 750 thousand, roughly half are women. We have seen the videos from the BBC and Al Jezzera of these appaling conditions, the effects of the 'blockade'.

The U.N. has repeatedly called this blockade illegal and a human rights violation. On top of that, it is 'collective punishment', which is illegal under the Geneva Convention. The israeli government claims they have the right to block all aid coming in to punish Hamas, but sure, they are willing to punish millions of women and children who have nothing to do with any political parties just to prove a point. This is unaceptable and has been for YEARS since the practice began.

If you were to implement that sort of policy in your own area, how would it work out? Say for example in city you live -during local elections a party was put in power by democratic vote that the state government did not like. If they then sealed the borders of your city and told everyone until that party was to step down there would be no resources or aid, is that not the text book definition of tyranny? To follow up on this by starving everyone in your city, cutting off electricity, cutting off running water until that party stepped down, is that not just evil?

How exactly is it the fault of the 750,000 children there? The israelis argue that they have to punish all of those children because they can't allow Hamas to take power. But what if bush had cut off water, electricity and banned medical aid coming into California because they did not elect a republican governor? Would the people really stand for that?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/ga...e-the-children

You can't collectively punish an entire area because you do not like the politics of a small group. You can't punish women and children who have no say in the matter to begin with. You can't blame the victim in this case either saying they should do more to remove the people in power, especially in a culture where women and children have little to no say.

I'm all for an investigation, but lets not lose sight of what has already transpired.

[quote=CptSternn;620475
U.N. Inspectors went over the ship before it left, along with other human rights groups to make sure there would be nothing that would cause an incident.
[/QUOTE]

This is the most revealing of Israel's true attitude towards the flotilla: Some of you may recall Israel spies being caught in the U.S. and then being released with a slap on the wrist. Why didn't Israel send spies to inspect and join the flotilla? Or better still why not just publicly inspect the flotilla before it left as well? Common sense says that an ounce of pre-launch prevention is better than mid-water cure. Israel could have avoided the bad publicity and world condemnation by inspecting and then escorting the flotilla, but no, they have to get all macho and wait to confront the flotilla just before it lands and show what a bad ass they are by dropping from helicopters.

I used to support Israel but this is over the fucking top.

My eyes just bled. T'was great spending half an hour in this thread.

It took you half an hour to read that? Shit.

I was absorbing every detail of it. I was doing yoga at the same time. Nice eh?? You should try that sometimes.

Hamas and IHH ARE terrorist organizations. IHH has publicly endorsed violent military action against Israel. Hamas is at war with Israel and has a stated goal to end Israel's existence.

The question of whether the protesters on the boat the violence erupted on were innocent and unarmed is still in question. The question of whether the violence was provoked is fair to ask.

There's no doubt based the reporting I've seen that the cargo on that ship was all legitimate humanitarian aid. That's never been in question. And the organizers of that mission had to know that the ship would be boarded by the Israelis as every other ship that has tried to broach the blockade had been, so it was in their interest to make sure the cargo was innocent. But this wasn't the only way to get aid into Gaza. Egypt offered to move it in across their border - that offer was refused. Ergo, the main intent of this mission was not the bring to aid to Gaza but to break the blockade.

If the Israeli's were as duplicitous as you seem to indicate, they would have come forward and claimed that there were weaponry in the cargo. The Isreali's have done no such thing.

So the cargo was never in question or debated here ... but the intent of some people on board that sixth boat is in question.

I've said several times that the blockade is not even in Israel's own self-interest in the long run. And the humanitarian impact on the people of Gaza is heart wrenching. But the fact that the people of Gaza elected Hamas, an organization whose stated goal is the end of Israel as a nation-state, to be the democratically elected representative government of the people there means the citizens do have some level of indirect responsibility for the situation they find themselves in. The UN's not wrong, but the people of Gaza are not strictly speaking all innocent.

It's not just a party the Israeli's don't like. If the citizens of my city voted to install a local government whose stated aim was to overthrow the state or Federal government by any means necessary, including violence ... I'd expect the National Guard to be surrounding the city the next day. That would not be evil ... that would be a sane reaction.

You and I disagree about whether Hamas is a terrorist organization. I ask if Hamas worries about women and children when they launch missiles at Israel. So there's no point in us debating this. Let the investigation proceed.

I agree the deaths were tragic and unnecessary. I think the Israelis were uncharacteristically ill-prepared for whatever happened when they landed on that boat, so they definitely share some responsibility for what happened, and they may be fully responsible. But the question still remains ... were they met by a pre-planned attack designed to provoke a violent response?

Finally, Jon Stewart showed a bunch of the international protest footage on The Daily Show last night. He said. "Anti-Israel protests in countries around the world, anti-Israel signage, spitting on and burning of Israeli flags ... must be Tuesday."

On the other hand, if Israel continues to resist allowing an international probe into the Gaza flotilla raid, I'm going to have a problem with that.