Feminism And Classism
 

http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/...eminism_still_

So the article is really long and won't fit in a post, but what do YOU think?

On one hand, feminist theory itself can feel like reading another language (looking at you Butler), but on the other hand I don't feel its totally impossible to get through, especially literature from the second wave. The second wave movement WAS dominated by the white and middle class who didn't give two shits about anyone else (Betty Friedan, for example, was paranoid lesbians would take over NOW. NOW's manifesto mentioned nothing about race, class or sexuality). But there was a lot of feminists of colour/womanists, queer feminists, radfems and revolutionary feminists who, angry at being ignored, were able to create their own movements and theories, and they created a lot of accessible literature that is arguably far more relevant today than something like The Feminine Mystique. I disagree with the article when it says feminist literature is too academic and hard to understand, its just that what gets promoted isn't what you need to hear.

The reason the movement at large seems to have no teeth and only acts up when every woman's rights are getting stepped on (such as recently with all the crazy abortion laws), is that unless it affects white middle class women, the movement at large doesn't give two shits. When things are fine, they don't care about poverty or racism. The accessible literature that gets promoted is more likely to whine about women CEO's not getting paid as much as male CEOs rather than point out the economic oppression in our capitalist society (ALTHOUGH, books like Half The Sky are more than willing to point out the economic oppression in other countries, and how loans and kind capitalism can save them.). No one complains about capitalism because those with the biggest audiences have a stake in capitalism and have privilege to protect, even if they do tout the word "intersectionality" now and then.

And this goes back to that thread about how less educated you are, the more right wing you are, but its not just that "they're stupid," its that, what has the left really done in the last thirty years to prove that they really give two shits about the great unwashed and uneducated?

I heard 'slut' is the 'new' '******.'

From an outsider's perspective, I would largely disagree with you. Just because you know of more accessible sources doesn't change that a lot of people who are interested aren't going to start there. Think back to when you weren't as versed in it, and try to imagine that you want to learn more about it at this moment. Where would you start? Hopefully your feminist friend wouldn't say "Gender Trouble is great!" Pretty discouraging, right? Maybe even down right alienating. You have to remember that the article is making a generalization of feminist literature as a whole, and generally, I think stuff like Butler is what gets emphasized. If mainstream feminism would say "Start here," and continue to talk about things that the marginalized women can relate to, it would be a lot more successful in reaching them.

The "Start Heres" tend to be kind of bad. Miss Representation (which isn't bad unto itself, its just held up as the REASON FEMINISM IS STILL RELEVANT and yet its just about white women in media and politics, ya know?). The Feminine Mystique was actually the Start Here given to me, and then stuff like Yes Means Yes. A few times I've heard Feminism Is For Everyone by bell hooks a few times, followed by "its not that accessible and kinda hard to understand." Like I said, there is some really accessible stuff, but you have to look for it.

What do you think about the article's suggestion that some circles are elitist or classist? I can't imagine that everywhere is like that, but it is a little intimidating to be looked at like that and would definitely put me off, especially if I tried to start a discourse with well meaning intention and only met silence or terminology I had never heard of.

It can be, but personally I've mostly been in circles that don't have any theory to work with at all, or just read aforementioned mainstream stuff. which is problematic, when you're trying to explain to white women what white privilege is and why its so shitty of them to talk over women of colour at a anti-racist event.

You would THINK that this sort of thing would be addressed in public education systems like high school so that everybody has a stronger back ground in it's relevance.

This is pretty much the only approach that I could see working. The article's assertion that many people don't really encounter feminism until university, thereby inherently skewing it in terms of class and education from the get-go, was certainly true for me. And I'll confess that I even spent my first couple of years at university rolling my eyes at the number of Women's Writing and feminism-centred classes, despite the fact that these were, in retrospect, only a very small proportion of the sutided material. My attitude used to be that women would get a lot further in life if they got over their victim complex, performed well at what they were doing, and gave as good as they got should conflict arise. I would have identified as a feminist if asked; but honestly, it wasn't until I got out in the world, encountered actualworkplace sexism & silencing, and had my proper 'feminist click' that I realised what a hopelessly naive and sheltered view that had been.

From what I can see, it's become one of those chicken/egg circle jerks: feminism is inherently skewed in terms of class/education because it's not really part of 'mainstream' identity politics (a racist or homophobic comment will usually generate far more anger, and "just a joke", be seen as a far less valid defence of such a remark, than with your average garden-variety sexist comment); it's generally (in my opinion & experience) more of an academic niche, than a part of everyday public consciousness. Yet it's hard for it to go truly mainstream so long as feminist debates are dominated by educated, privileged voices. Earlier and more prevalent education would be a good way of addressing this.

This is a rather intriguing problem. I can relate somewhat, as it does take a lot of education to understand a lot of the underlying factors that go along with the huge, multifaceted movement that is feminism today.

If I hadn't had people around me to bring up issues I was ignorant of, internet access and a decent amount of time to educate myself about them, I'd still be back at square one. Self education is damn near impossible when you add children to the mix as household work seems to increase exponentially every time another person is added.

I've noticed that abuse is rampant, when I look around at my lady friends I realize that almost all the women I know have been abused, some sexually, some verbally and emotionally. Ignorance and outdated ideals keep them in these situations, some are blamed for their situation as if they failed to do enough to keep it from happening. Some are overwhelmed by the idea of leaving their spouse to lead lives of single motherhood and most likely poverty.

Sex education here in the U.S. is a fucking joke. Many only have basic information to go on. Many are mis-informed about methods of birth control and safer sex and so are unaware of their options. Antiquated ideas steeped in religion about women's role in reproduction set the stage for abstinence-only sexual education, lack of education about female anatomy and care, as well as the debates about access to birth control/abortion.

Feminism is desperately needed in working class families. Educating women about issues that directly affect them is probably one of the best ways to help improve society as a whole. However it is pretty subtle stuff... and sometimes it can be hard to explain without using words chosen to represent some of the ideas.

Personally, I think that friendship, conversation and understanding are the best tools for the job.

Ah well... I'm preachin' to the choir.

I gotta say Saya, with some of the run-ins I've had with the establishment left lately...I'm pretty pissed at liberals these days. Not only have they virtually ignored the issues that don't relate to the white middle and upperclass, they seem to be as willing as the right to employ oppressive hierarchical bullshit - if not moreso.

So yeah, remember when I said this isn't about your "pet issues"? Guess what? I was wrong. This is about everyone's pet issues, because more often than not those things are interconnected AND integral to keeping this horrifying capitalist/fascist machine running. The plight of women is the plight of the lower classes, it's the plight of everyone who is kept down in order to prop up this tiny entitled and well-entrenched minority, and we can't have liberation without women's liberation, and we can't have women's liberation without egalitarianism and solidarity BETWEEN women of all classes, races, and persuasions.

TL;DR - Shit's fucked up.

I don't think feminism is less mainstream than anti-racism or anti-homophobia, at least not for white women. After all it was white women feminists who thought it would be appropriate to have several people holding signs that say "Women are the n*gger of the world", as if black women aren't really women, right? And while ignoring criticism from women of colour who by virtue of being women of colour are always assumed to be promiscuous and hypersexual.

I also think that people only have a basic idea of how racism is wrong. Its something an individual person, they don't realize its systematic and persists to this day. You can talk about how lazy Natives are, but you don't say the n word so you're not really racist. A lot of racist language isn't challenged.

Also, feminism wasn't always academic, and while I DO love the academic theory, I think overall feminism was far more revolutionary in the second wave, before there was women's studies classes. We were educated in collectives, not in schools. And schools can be just as problematic, I remember one class where we were talking about trans* youth and whether they should be allowed to take hormones while underage. And everyone, even the prof, was like, "teens are too young for that!" and I'm like, you know, we do give cis teens hormones. Called birth control.

Some of the manuals from The Ruckus Society puts a visual to this, our system of oppression is like a table with legs. There's legs of sexism, racism, colonialism, classism, etc. Knocking out each one is mutually beneficial for all, until the whole thing comes down.

Being a teen is bad enough, giving a trans kid hormone blockers can save a fuckton of dysphoria and misery later. Of course silly people seem to think that puberty will solve everything... it doesn't.

They just don't get that its such a huge deal, such a source of misery and that its better to give the kids what they need, than to stand by in denial contributing to the glaringly high suicide rates among transgender people.

Mrs. Humane went to the auto insurance approved shop yesterday to get an estimate for repair (parking lot hit and run, fortunately the McDonald's parking video captured the loser who tried to get away with it, who was subsequently arrested) and she happened to take her brother with her. When the shop mechanic came out with the estimate, even though she had brought the car in, handed over the insurance paperwork, and described what happened, without even asking he tried to hand the estimate to him instead of her. The patriarchal orientation is deeply embedded.

It's exactly those tiny little events that people really should think through.
For example, in Occupy El Paso there's this very important man (won't say anything that might narrow who he is) and he rightly is looked upon as an authoritative figure, and I do like him, but the first time I went to a meeting I noticed he interrupted without hesitation when a woman was speaking, while he tended to wait until men finished before bringing the conversation to his topic. In both cases he's one of those people who is already thinking of what he wants to talk about while you're talking, but there's a difference on whether he waits or interrupts that has statistically clear gender lines.

^ You look like you just read the wikipedia and want to show off. You remind me of this:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120617.gif

Oh, it's a bot. A very weird bot.

Yeah. You're so easy.

Where's the link to the knock off Prada bags?


Anyway; I remember saying dick butt thousands of times on here and never once did we get a bot advertising things for dicks or butts.

I just don't get these bots, man.

only took two months but looks like you got your link to knock-off bags

That has to have been Versus.

Why do you say that?

Intuition tells me so.

Theory
 

Most Americans don't know the difference between capitalism, socialism, and communism so this discussion gets really ridiculous with a lot of people. Capitalism is one of the most oppressive forms of economy around. The goal is to make as much money as possible and how do you accomplish that? By crushing everyone around you! Keep wages low so the stockholders get rich! Slash benefits so you get wealthy.

This goes far beyond a feminist framework. The middle class in America has proven their values only encompass their needs. Gas prices are more important than economic destruction? A massive home you can't afford is more important than urban and rural poverty? Lower income people are no better. I watched the film The Last Mountain not long ago. Rural West Virginia people fuming over the destruction mountain top removal is causing. But how many of them voted for President Bush who then allowed such things? God, guns and gays were more important in the election than common sense. African-Americans coming out to vote in record numbers in California when Obama ran and voting AGAINST gay rights! Leaders of the African-American community arguing that the gay rights movement has NOTHING in common with the early civil rights movement. HUH???

Theory is a beautiful thing. I'm a literature student and I love it. Everything from Lacan to deconstructionism delights me. But it's theory. Reality is a far different animal.

And Mao mobilized a peasant class, Drew.

While I understand your trepidation of popular rhetoric of the states and admittedly I'm confident that the US would much rather embrace fascism long before it embraces communism.

But we can not ignore the fact that there IS a seed of class consciousness arising in the people of the US. You can even see it here on the boards. What we once had as hardline libertarians have changed to red anarchism and a plethora of members who embrace socialism or even some are admittedly communist.

And that's something that's so interesting about our situation today. The people have never before until the advent of the internet, had such access to communication.

We live in the age of "prove it". Ideas that are presented on the web are viciously contested. Having to make justifications for a point for example, improved my writing skills in school. I didn't learn how to write good essays in school, I learned by sparring with Saya, H_P, and others.

Today, it is so much easier to politicize the disenfranchised and the apathetic. We are educated on several fronts now due to popular access to others.