Born a Goth or Made a Goth?.....
 

i was born with a goth mentality, but i wasn't allowed to dress the part until i became an adult..

When I was a teenager (80's) I listened to a lot of heavy metal. In the group of friends we had in our street, only two of us were into it.

One day, were arguing about music and musical tastes, and as usual, I found myself trying to justify/explain why I listened to music that to others was so obviously crap.

I couldn't explain the power and energy you feel, I couldn't explain the revolt, the feeling that there's something about the agressiveness in the music that relates to all those excess teen homones you need to burn up, all the things you're angry about as a teen (teenagers are ALWAYS angry/upset about something) and how the music is like a catharsis to all that.

and a friend goes: -You listen to that shit because you have problems in your family.
Me: -What?
Him: -Yeah. And Richard also listens to it because his mum gives all of his family shit.
I don't remember what I said to try to refute it, but the thought stuck in my head. I did notice later on that everybody I knew that listened to heavy/punk/alternative music was fucked up in some kind of way which not only varied in reasons as to why you're fucked up, but also the degree to which you're fucked up.


Some were very poor.

Some's family members were nothing but alcoholics and/or drug users.

Some were molested.

Some were constantly beaten.

some were ugly or fat.

Some stutered or had something physical that made them different.

Some were gay.

Some were exceedingly rich/bored and angry at their parents for not giving a shit about them (a lot of those out there).

Some were inteligent enough to be able to see the world very clearly and didn't like at all what they saw (these are a very rare and valuable species and are worth a lot of points if you shag them, if you want to know what they look like, check out my avatar)

You can go on all you want about the sense of aesthetics/music/literature and you'll be right, but what I'm saying is: wasn't there something specific that drew you to it?

Was there a point in your life were you didn't follow the "normal" path and got diverted to the "twilight zone", whether willingly or not?

I think so. If not, chances are you're 13, think black is cool and so are the chicks/boys who do, and just got here recently.

My point: either nobody is born a goth or everybody is a latent goth, but there is something that triggers it. The capacity to appreciatte the beauty gypsy mentioned exists in all, but lays dormant and may stay there all your life and may never stirr. Obviously, because you're reading this, something DID stirr; or your just reading this to try to learn how to pick up goth chicks (I give private courses on it and accept all major credit cards)

Well, I'm not a real goth but I believe most people who are creative and like dark things by nature have a possibility of evolving into goth culture.

I grew up in a "normal" (normal in: non-goth, non-molesting, non-junkie, non-ultrarich, just classical middle class family) and from my earliest ages I loved horror movies, I liked undead, I liked all those terrible things that made the rest of my family shudder. I always liked to draw and at the age of 7 I began drawing comics which quickly evolved. I was always creative, making campaigns for WarCraft II and StarCraft and always trying to bring in something new. I loved music very much too. Eventualy I went to writting and today I'm quite close to publishing my first book.

During my whole life I loved bloody dark things, my comics are full of slaughters and evil guys, my pictures are no different, my role playing campaigns (I was a GM for a few years) and my books are all aiming to shock and inspire fear and are all populated by different (usualy psychologicaly instable) characters.

So yes, you could say I like dark things.

So with time, as I found out I like "evil" music (black metal, MM etc.) more then the usual stuff that's popular in Serbia, I started hanging out at goth (as far as any Serbian goth can be considered goth) and realized that people won't care much about the way I act. There are the usual "truer then thou" morons but fuck them, I don't hang around with that kind of people, they're as shallow as typical goth-haters.

Now I'm pretty much wearing clothes and living the life I like. I don't think I was born as a goth, no way, I found a taste for it and eventualy evolved into it (although, I repeat, I'm not a true goth, I'm just Mijat Vujacic, nothing more nothing less).

EDIT:
Another thing that could in a way support my theory that people evolve into goths is plain proof. There are many people who, by their characteristics could be considered goths yet they simply aren't goths. Par example:

Stephen King - a great writer, horror specialists, has a gargolye on his house gate, is very creative, adores dark things and is into leather wear, motors, hard rock and metal music etc. All the things "needed" for a regular goth. Yet he simply isn't a goth, he's just a man who has all those properties yet doesn't dress and act like a goth. He could but he didn't evolve into a goth.

Marilyn Manson - of all people he is creative in so many ways, he's very individualistic, you could say that the way he dresses is very unique and, I daresay, gothish. But hey, he doesn't consider himself a goth and would never want to be a goth, he's just himself.

They're the first people that come to mind, both fit the "Goth With A Sledgehammer" goth properties (I read it very carefuly yesterday) yet neither are goth. They just havent "evolved".

personally i think some people can be "born" goth i probably was i began listening to heavy metal sometime around the 3rd or 4th grade which probably sounds really pathetic. however the "fucked up theory" still stands because both of my parents did drugs so go figure

That is a very well thought out perspective... However, in regards to Marilyn Manson. As much as I am irritated by some of the things the man says, he does have my respect as an artist and a genuinely intelligent person (albeit a bit off... but such is the case with many intellectuals). I would come to the conclusion that the man is Goth and simply does not choose to label himself as such due to media steriotyping...

I would also say similar things of Stephen King, pointing out my position that "The clothes do not make the Goth..." (after all... look at me, Mr. "I'm in the army" goth.... lol...)

Both of these people are indeed "Just themselves..." but isn't that also a part of being goth? The need to be ones self outside of the social stigma?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Maelstrom My point: either nobody is born a goth or everybody is a latent goth, but there is something that triggers it. The capacity to appreciatte the beauty gypsy mentioned exists in all, but lays dormant and may stay there all your life and may never stirr. Obviously, because you're reading this, something DID stirr; or your just reading this to try to learn how to pick up goth chicks (I give private courses on it and accept all major credit cards)

To a degree I would agree Mael (if I may be so personal to call you such, no insult intended, I simply consider you a friend), however, I would pose it as "Everyone has the ability to appreciate beauty, it is what forms of beauty we appreciate and or create that makes one goth or not." I find that the beauty we create and surround ourselves with is an expression of whom we are and whom we would choose to be... I think that some lack the ability to appreciate more of the darker side of art, be it through self denial of their inner natures, or some other course due to birth and the nature of genetics...


A little about myself... (oh, how libra's enjoy talking about themselves.... lol...) I myself didn't until recently decide to call myself "goth" per se. Due to media and social steriotyping, my perception of exactly what goth was was distorted and was nothing close to even resembling the truth... so I decided to give myself another label... a morbidly poetic free thinker... Recently, in my wanderings and studies, I came across several old school goth writings and contacted several goths themselves in order to get my perspective straight because their writings engendered in me the response of a similar soul... What they relegated to me was a general discription of who they were and why they wrote what they wrote..... I realized then that I had borne the nature of "goth" within me through out the course of my entire life... so in the end, I am myself, I am Goth..... (It still bears a strangeness about my tongue when I say it though... Again thanks to my social conditioning...). I had always danced with goths as they were the only ones who moved as I did... I had always spoken with goths over coffee about philosophy... and all of that time (due to social stigma and my own denseness) I had no idea that I was indeed goth... I laugh at myself now... but it is kind of sad that I allowed such social standards to prejudice my thinking in such a way... I'll not let it happen again, I shall instead take all matters into consideration that I can and shall be not afraid to ask others their opinion... discounting none (hence this thread...)

So I remain in my position that a goth is born goth and simply does not realize it until later... though a catalystic event and proper information may be a cause for such a realization... on that note I'll end...

P.S I do appologize for the purple Giga, it's just that I find it aesthetically pleasing and a lighter shade of purple is frighteningly close to pink... lol... my appologies to all those out there who like pink, it is meant as no insult, it is simply a matter of personal taste...

Always Respectfully,
~The Gypsy~

Gypsy dude, you are so being wasted in the army...

No disrespect to the institution you're in and your peers, I don't think you're really in the place where you're "all you can be".

Take care.

You're one of the few people who ever said that to me on line =).
I agree completely. But is goth not a self-proclaimed title? If a person doesn't take oneself as a goth then, is that person really not a goth? I think that anyone who doesn't label themselves goth is indeed not a goth even if that person dresses, acts and in reality is a goth.

lol.... thanks, I think... Not sure about your choice of words though... "bieng wasted in the army" and all... lol.....

Either way, it was a necessary part of my own metamorphosis into what I am today... lol... Who knows, if it weren't for me joining up I might still be the snot nosed little "gothy-goth-goth" I was before... lol... Hard times purify the spirit and temper the steel of the soul... I am fortunate enough to have my steel honed to a fighting edge that I might defend who and what I believe in... As such I have a responsibility to defend those who are less fortunate..... so in the end my gifts and talents of my nature and soul become a weighty, double edged responsibility... A sword I gladly raise to defend the rights of those I hold dear.....

Anyway, where do you think should I be?

Now... back to the subject at hand... speech time over... lol.....

Yes goth can be a title, but in reference to the conversation at hand, we are talking about the nature of what goth is, not so much the title. Note that at the end you yourself stated "...in reality is a goth", which is exactly what I am speaking of when I say a person is born a goth... the title has been polluted over the years by steriotypes and preconceptions but at the core the nature remains the same, hence one does not need to dress goth to indeed be a goth.....

And Giga, it is not flattery, it is simply the truth..... You thought out your response and rebuttle, and I for one appreciate a person who thinks rather than reacts... I would even go so far as too say it is likely several people here appreciate the same.....

All that aside I return to my original point, can a person become goth without possessing already the inherent nature of goth, to create and/or appreciate dark things?... I would say no... one can't... Hence a person is born goth...

Ever Thoughtfully,
~The Gypsy~

I believe people can be born a goth or just some one become one. Like me I didn't really know I was a goth untill I started to know Ravena better. She is just like me some what. We like the same music and the same taste of clothes. I am not all the way goth but I am some what goth. I was not born a goth so to me either way a person can be born a goth or made a goth.

Nature vs. nurture? Are we pre-destined by our genes and chromosomes to be a certain way or is it free will that makes us what we are? Or, is it a little of both?
I tend to believe that it is a reaction to one's evironment. The things that Mael mentioned in his post would , most assuredly, play a large role in determining whether someone's outlook was "normal" or if it leaned more toward the light or dark. I am a prime example of leaning toward the dark because of a lot of things that have happened in my life.
However, I do not believe that it is not experiences alone that make one gothic in nature. One must choose to go toward the dark..or light. One may have dark inclinations but realize that it's not what society deems appropriate so one may work to stave the desire to be a nightbreed.
Conversely, if one is more prone to light, one can(over time) train ones self to be darker. Through experiences and just living.
I do not think, though; that our fates and action are determined by our heredity or genetic makeup.

Thank you

good night

This is dan rather signing off :wink:

I believe that we are born goth and made goth and both types are legitimate goths. Some people I know have been dark and morbid their entire lives. Others I know have been made goth by traumatising incidents in their lives that made them see everything in a darker light. Some people haven't been previously goth but "discovered" macabre aspects of their personality through clothing, music, and art and then decided they liked it alot.

I had always been different from others kids not because I was dark and listened to strange music, but more because of my personality. In fact, I had a happy and normal childhood. However, I was always extremely shy and tended to spend more time reading and observing others rather than joining in and socializing. As I aged and went through school I grew more aware of how "weird" and socially inept I was. I became angry and depressed knowing for some reason I just couldn't fit in. The smarter I got, the more contempt I felt for society and the world. I reflected that contempt in my clothing, music, writing, and art. I wanted to show the world on the outside how I felt on the inside. I befriended gothlike people and was amazed at how similar they were to me in ideals and tastes.

So does that mean I was born goth? Made goth? I don't really know nor care. I am what I am today and it makes me happy.

I suppose it really depends on what your definition of goth is then really, you see fair Darkness, I define goth as more than clothes... more than music... For me goth is a whole lifestyle... a train of thought... a philosophy daring to go darker than the rest of the world at large. For me, by my definition, one is not "...somewhat goth..." one either is or isn't. that statement is like saying water is somewhat wet... Now, that being said being goth does not automaticly preclude the possibility of being something else as well... like a hippy... one can be both, like salt water... it is both water and salt. As far as being made a goth... I've already broached that several times in the statement that one must originally have the trait of appreciating and/or creating some form of "dark art"..... so, in effect, it would be better to say one "discovers" that she or he is a goth... rather than "becoming" one... this is where individuality comes in, as most goths tend to be extremely individualistic, when one discovers that she or he has always had certain traits in their individual nature, she or he has always had them... hence why I believe it is a born trait.....


Once again it comes to ones definition of goth... Outlook on life tends to be reflected by ones inner nature and does also tend to be affected by worldly stimuli, however, I do not believe that basic emotions and needs can be "trained"... One of the most basic things about being goth, as far as I have been able to ascertain, is the need to appreciate and create dark things... art, music, philosophy etc... These things and the appreciation of them come from the soul and, as a basic need and desire of an entire subculture, it would seem a predisposition that is almost physical in nature... You also went into "One may have dark inclinations but realize that it's not what society deems appropriate so one may work to stave the desire to be a nightbreed. Conversely, if one is more prone to light, one can(over time) train ones self to be darker." but does this equall true deep seeded appreciation or self denial?... I would say self denial... Not to mention I have a hard time understanding why someone would choose to push themselves from the light, with all the ridicule that such an action entails, if one is already predisposed to being a creature of the light... oh I'm certain there are examples, out of love for someone with a darker nature... but in that case is it not appreciating something of the darkness hence pertaining to the original qualities of bieng goth anyways?..... A mixture of act and predisposition?... Act comes from predisposition my friend... push a person far enough and their true nature shall shine through... be it goth or not... depending on who they are as an individual... it's instinctive in nature... I instinctually tend to move towards darker things and though I may sometimes enjoy the light but I know instinctively that I could not live happily without living, thinking, breathing and creating dark things... perhaps that is just me though... I have done alot of soul searching to find what drives me and that is what I found amongst other things... Maybe if you gave me your definition of goth, told me what drives you, and why you consider yourself goth I would understand you position better... I, however, would still think that even a person pretending to be of the light in denial of who they are, still plays in the dark being true to themselves..... thus, in effect being a "closet goth".....

Now I sit in wait of a scathing rebuttal... lol.....

Always,
~The Gypsy~

Yes, but the question then becomes "Does one define goth as seeing things in a darker light?"... I would say no... I would say that it tends to be an inherent aspect of goth by it's very nature as it is feeling the darkness and needing to appreciate and/or create from it..... However I know some pretty bubbly and shiny people who are fairly happy simply beeing who they are and living in a dark world creating dark things who I would consider goth..... Though you apparently feel otherwise.....

As to the fact that you don't care... I am one that simply questions myself and the environment around me and envy you this... not caring and being happy simply being yourself is a wonderful trait... try not to loose it...

Sincerely,
~The Gypsy~

Terry Pratchett once wrote, “In a general sort of way everyone knew they were going to die, even the common people. No one knew where you were before you were born, but when you were born it wasn’t long before you found you’d arrived with your return ticket already punched.”

There’s wisdom in that simple statement, and it accounts for much dark musings all around. We all have gothic tendencies, which coincidently usually blossom around the time we look at our return ticket. It’s the nature of life and the inevitability of death that gives us cause to wonder why the fuck we got on the train in the first place.

So I’ll cast my vote toward the born side as I wait for my particular train to wreck, and in the meantime I’ll continue to look out the window and wonder.

Woohoo!... an ally!... lol..... and from the most unlikely of places too..... Thanks for not being a silent partner, I have noticed a remarkable number of people voting and not stating..... Thanks again.....

~The Gypsy~

Goth as a stereotype vs goth as an archetype...hmm.

Suppose one could be 'made' goth...if we could determine the factors which cause a person to 'become goth' we could create a gothbaby machine...

"Willie Wonka's leather 'n chains razorblade factory"
A NIN soundtrack would do nicely..

Blah.

I think one is born "goth"..there are plenty of people who experience misfortunes/pessimists/lack of joie de vivre etc but not all consider themselves goth.
Or they lack that Weltschmerz-melancholy/artistic taste.

Anyways..when i was a gothling we used to have these discussions, and 15 years or so later the argument still stands.

My guess is people cant be easily categorised, often its easier to make out the differences between two goths than finding the common denominator (imo not even music or dresscode).

I don't know why unlikely, I'm not that controversal in my views.

p.s. I've been meaning to ask you, what's your mos? How long you been in country? When do you rotate back?

p.s.s. is there anything nastier than a ham slice on a hot day in MOPP 2?

LOL..scathing rebuttal..from me? LOL I am so even tempered and laid back that they want to draw my boold and sell it as a natural alternative to prozac , zanax and the like :wink:

A lot of people are not strong enough to go against society, even if they are drawn one direction or another. They lack the will and ,therefore , do deny themselves. I'm sure you've met people who've said something akin to:"Yeah, man, I've been into that since I was a kid but...*insert reasons here*." They have the yearning but not the will power.
Same thing for those who try to be dark for whatever reason(love. or what have you). I'm not saying that it isn't self denial. It is. But people can(and do) do it often.
You make very valid points but I've looked back in my life many times and wondered why I was the way I was. Why I could see beauty in a corpse. Why everything I wrote had dark undertones. Why I enjoyed biting the heads off doves...wait..that was Ozzy..never mind.
I did think I was born that way..but I started looking at my earliest memories and how they might have effected me. My father beating because I didn't tie a perfect knot in my shoe lace. Him throwing tables out the windows and threatening to throw us out of tthem as well. Beating my mother. My mother verbally and physically abusing me. Being...well..abused...ridiculed from Kindergarten on. Those early memories are what molded me.


I've never considered myself "goth" just a dark soul. Freethinking, introspective, stoic,poetic(riiiiight),artistic, sullen, outcast...and I look damn good in black and chains :wink: It was a title that I came across fairly recently(about 3 years ago) to try to explain myself and my beliefs to others.

What drives me is me. My need to understand myself and my soul..to delve into the dark miasmal abyss of my soul..and in turn..learn something about the human animal. My need to learn why. What makes me tick..what makes us all tick...looking at the monsters inside and trying to see the beauty in it all.



I'm medicated right now(legally,blew my knee out) so I don't even know if any of this made sense...if it doesn't just slap me.

I do see your point of view and I used to subscribe to it myself but I've ,since, changed sides. Nurute is my story and I'm sticking to it...
Now..where's my oxycontin? :oops:

Well, if we want to get into the definitions of goth, then I'd have to change me answer to "I Have No Freaking Clue" :) . It all depends on your personal definition of goth. I'm not exactly sure of the exact definition of goth so I can't be sure on weither or not we are born goth. The closest thing I can use to describe it logically to myself is "seeing things in a darker light" although that doesn't even begin to cover all of it. I can't put it into words. Don't get me wrong, I feel what your saying. You can still be bubbly and perky and be very goth indeed. You can also be bubbly and perky and still see the world in a dark light (and just laugh at it). I do question myself and the world alot, but I find I am unable to give myself answers so I must be content knowing I know nothing and just let myself think up many many different possibilities.

Gypsy, you've brought up excellent food for thought. I am now very very confused and must go ponder. :?

I don't know why either to tell you the truth... Must be the avatar... throws me off every time... love that friggin' dog!... lol...

R.P.S. 31R, yay commo pukes! I've been here I'm guessing two months... difficult to tell when everyday is a repeat of the one before it... I go back to Germany in the Feb.-March time frame... but I do get to come home on R&R to Houston, so look out Houston! I'm commin' home to kick out a few preps for what you did to my beautiful city! Well... er... nice city.... well... ok shitty city but I loved it all the same and you preppy-ized it! Shees, I leave for six years and ya see what happens?!... lol...

R.P.S.S. Yes, the smell of a newbie pissing in M.O.P.P. 2 just because a mortar happens to land nearby WHILE eating ham slice... lol..... eeeewwwwwwww..... lol.....

Ever Humorous,
~The Gypsy~

Hence the term "closet goth"... I look at it this way, just because a gay woman is "in the closet", she is not any less gay... the same could be said for "closet goths"... or closet anything else for that matter...

Now onto.....

None the less, you still reacted as was your nature to... Some people would have gone with this and been thankful or gone to a convent or any number of things... you paid heed to your darker nature hence you are here rather than seminary school trying to find God.....


So a classic old school goth with some fetish goth mixed in... ok, I follow... but why do you still not consider yourself a goth? I admit, as I have before, the label does feel a little strange yet if the shoe fits....

Which, I would venture a guess, is why I associate with you so well and would name you friend..... What I've found is only slightly different.....

LoL... Go take your meds.... but realize that you still haven't explained your reasoning well enough to me... it seems to me you followed your nature under pressure... you went dark instead of light and here you are.......




Now, before you get too far in your pondering and end up going in circles and circles you might want to check this site out.....
Blood Dance.

Two pages in particular... Defining Goth and Goth with a Sledghammer. You'll find them helpful and informative.... now I'm gonna go die of exhaustion.... lol... "I'm Soooooooooo Gooooooooooth.....".... LMAO....

Ever over analyzing,
~The Gypsy~

TWO!!... Count them... Two allies!... Mwa ha haaaaa... he he he...

*In best billy Joe Bob the Hick voice* Yup.. I can coun'.....

At this rate we might actually involve the entire site!.... ~ironic lil' laugh~.....

Actually, I like the movie title.... lol.....

~The Gypsy~

Food for thought? No. More like a buffet, here. Going to have to ponder..spend the night in my dungeonous soul

lol....

*in best '40's esque movie gangsters voice....

Neeah see!... That's how I'm gonna take over the world see!... I'm gonna make everyone ponder themselves to death like I've been doing for years!... lol.....

On an only slightly more serious note... Now do you see why I have trouble sleeping?... I swear, between the poems, songs, song lyrics, musings, rants and tangents running through my head at any point in the day it's amazing I get anything done!... lol.....

On an even more serious note, forgive my bad version of humor right now... I am extremely exhausted from communicating idea's..... (I'm also multi-taking... does the madness ever end!?!... lol.....)

Ever Dead on his Feet,
~The Gypsy~