Labels - 'Goth', 'Alternative', etc.
 

Firstly I don't want to turn this into a muso elitist bitching session, but this is something that has come up in a number of threads and I am just kind of interested.

I just wonder how people naturally think about the labels we use to describe ourselves and the music we listen to.

I remember being informed when I wandered into some girl by mistake at a Goth club that 'Goth' was whatever music 'Goth's listened to.

But for me 'it is all about the music'. A Goth is someone who listens to Goth music, and Goth music is in general a sound that dwells in the continuum between Punk and Post-Punk, and heads a little into rock (although IMHO the later Goth Rock sound of the late '80's almost qualifies as a separate genre.)

What makes a this certain brand of Punk-Post-Punk unique is hard to define. But for me I guess it is a moving beyond the simple images of destruction and rebellion offered by elements of Punk into the ground of dark, artistic, glam, camp, subversion. Especially subverting religious imagery and that which people fear and reject or suppress (the Jungian Shadow).

So I guess it makes perfect sense to use the Gothic label beyond the boundaries of the punk-post-punk musical genre. However its use often seems rather obscure. It seems to work with aspects of Shoegaze, Dreampop, Minimal Industrial and Ethereal but less so with Dark Elektro and Metal. And of course I realised recently that even the term Goth-Industrial has totally different meanings in different geographical locations.

I am also fascinated by the label 'Alternative'. Alternative to what I wonder? Much music labelled under 'Alternative' seems to be far more mainstream than the music I might listen to that would be labelled 'Indie'. Alt.Rock seems to mean big label, heavily marketed, with an image of rebellion that is straight out of the 1950's (wind up your parents).

So the question is: Is Goth still usably a musical genre term, and what musically does Goth mean to you? And I am genuinely interested, not just looking to bitch my Batcave bum off.

I'd say "goth" is an umbrella term for a variety of sub genres, which mostly appeared in different locations and years. I wrote a paper on this while I was studying music, and did a survey among goths online. Most people associated the term with post- punk, death rock, darkwave and more unclassifiable, but still indisputably gothic bands and artists like Voltaire. Many others mentioned EBM alongside gothic metal and gothabilly, but this was an area of controversy. This was only two years ago, so I guess not much has changed since then. So, in my opinion, when you talk about "gothic music" it incorporates all of these genres and connects them through the dark aesthetics and/ or morbid/ dark themes that appear in the lyrics, even though the sound might be quite differing.

^ Some "normies" who misunderstand the gothic culture altogether tend to label anything other than bubblegum pop or rap as "goth". i.e. they think any band that wears eyeliner and has dark lyrics is goth and/or emo. In the bookstore yesterday, I saw that Blender magazine had Kelly Clarkson on the front. She was trying to look all rebelious, but it was obviously more preppy-pop girl suddenly becomes hot-topic inspired dark broody chick. I chuckled to myself.

Good goth. ;) I will bluntly say I agree 100% with Min.
On the subject of our subcultures' music, goth is often associated with Batcave, Deathrock (whether Romanticized such as Christian Death and Kommunity FK, or horror-themed tongue in cheek like Specimen and Alien Sex Fiend), Darkwave, and post-punk.
Today I am sad to say but the goth bands currently without being EBM or anything with nonstop insane bleeps, would be to say a few, Bella Morte, Bloody Dead and Sexy, Deadfly Ensemble, and the usually worshipped and saluted Cinema Strange. But most of these bands are involved in the Deathrock revival. Unless a goth band is still active, there are currently no bands purely identitfied as being goth (which I'd consider purely goth bands SexGang Children, Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and many others with Dark Cabaret, Post-Punk, or Glam elements)
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

My thoughts too. The old-school gothbands are far and between nowadays and I miss the simplicity of their sound.

I think you have to appreciate goth music... but I've always thought of goth as more about intelligence, creativity, expression, and literature... maybe it's just me =\

I agree that the term goth is just an umbrella term when it comes to music.
When you define a band, goth ends up being a pretty vague label (at least to us). Everything can fit into post-punk, deathrock, batcave, darkwave, industrial, gothabilly...

Which is more important: what Goths think Gothic music is, or what everyone else does?

When was the last time you asked a head what real hip-hop is? Has it occurred to you that the 'gangstas' you see could easily be the hip-hop equivalent of spooky kids?

Whenever a Goth talks about 'normies,' it's usually to complain about how misunderstood the subculture is and how no one cares enough to learn what 'real Goth' is. But Goths really don't care about unrelated subcultures-- they might understand punks and wavers, but that's just because they're in close contact all the time.

People misunderstand and mislabel subcultures all the time. I just laugh at them marvel at their stupidity. I don't think it's anything to worry about.

EBM is already EBM. Why would it suddenly be goth too?
I agree with what Circle V has said. Each subculture, at some point, has or will go through a point where the mainstream latches onto it and creates a retarded shadow of the original subculture. It happens, but it only effects those too stupid to see through the whitewash lies.

One of the things that makes what is Goth appealing is that it is so ambiguous; to put it simply, the sound is diverse enough that I think there's a sound for everyone who identifies with the subculture. It is, to me, a further expression of creativity, and, in certain respects, a celebration of individuality. Other than that, I think that aspect of the question has already been answered thoroughly.

As for what is alternative, the genre originally started out as a less mainstream approach to the direction in which rock was headed. I (think) it started growing in popularity, at one point, particularly through college stations. For the time that it was underground, it was a viable alternative *no pun intended* to the mainstream. The corruption and eventual transformation into a hypocricy came in the nineties, when the explosion of Grunge onto the scene gave way to major label interest in these otherwise "alternative" acts.

When a musical movement breaks through, so to speak, and becomes lucrative, record companies will propel any musician's career, if they can fool the public. Thus you had what leads to what you have now, a complete blurring of labels until there exists confusion as to what is what.

Good goth again! This reminds me, if we had a band that'd be a comparison of Sexgang Children, VIRGIN PRUNES BISHES!, and Siouxsie and the Banshees, goth would have it's place rightfully back in the world of underground music *kicks* Take that post-hardcore!
Oh am I just enjoying myself.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

Wait...Vyv, how are the Banshees purely goth...? And I'm actually not picking on you, I just really don't see what you're talking about.
Sure, they had a few songs that were gothtastic, but most of them weren't really goth at all.

Good question. Well, it's actually still disputed whether they are a goth band or not. But purely goth wouldn't exactly identify them as a whole, because they have hints of post-punk, Acoustic, Wave, and Expiremental as well.
On a side note it's really not my place to say such, but they are an essantial goth band in my eyes. I actually should've been more specific, while identifying them purely as goth doesn't shut them off from being punk or so called new wave as well, I should acknowledge them generally as a band. But their lyrics are dark and poetic that kinda distanced them from punk in the first place. I could honestly go on.
Thanks, actually. I don't think you're picking on me at all, in fact. That's not the first time the arguments been brought up
Goth Forever

There is NOTHING simple about Mutiny in Heaven, my friend. :)

I may be wrong, but I'm of the mind to say Dark Wave is the more modern goth rock of today. I mean, you can HAVE goth bands that are more old school style and I've seen and heard them. Mount Sims and Phantom Vision come to mind.

Bella Morte can lick me. They piss me off like ThouShaltNot pisses me off.

Then again, there's a vocal styling that I just don't like and anything that sounds even remotely close to the vocal stylings of pop-punk turn me off.

What blows my mind is where the goth community and the music are becoming seemingly like two different entities. Harsh EBM and Industrial are VERY popular in the goth clubs in my town and you're usually snubbed for asking for a bit of Danse Society or The Birthday Party.

The flamboyance of goth has been replaced with the aggro attitude of Industrial. I'm of the mind that true goth is getting way more rare than Industrial. But from what I've seen, Industrial and its harsh cousins have become the life blood of Goth.

Out of the six months I've been a member of the Louisville Goth scene, I've heard Specimen ONCE and Cities in Dust was played, but as a harsh electro cover, which isn't that bad actually.

I know a shit load of people would disagree with me on these points, but walk a mile in my shoes in my town and you'll soon notice that the times are changing. Hell, they've been changing.

You can do your own field research and find out yourself. People have become more rivetheaded in public. Goth music has become something you listen to in private it seems.

The End.

grbgdvnh

Good goth...The term 'Darkwave' AGAIN???!!!1
Oh, I am serious. This is a fad with our subcultures' music. Look at it this way: The term darkwave is only distanced from goth rock because it has electronic beats with goth rock elements. But the electronica is low. Other than this, it's considered the new goth music unless you're speaking of the overrated self-proclaimed 'deathrock' revival (which is good, but with some of the new enthusaits of deathrock act more like metal heads then deathrockers).
The term darkwave NEVER really applied to music before the late 80s, and before was an umbrella term, with Dead Can Dance and Danse Society, but they're still considered goth bands. I have nothing against the style of it, but I don't see the reason in the term 'Darkwave'. I honestly think that Etheral Goth, Folk Goth, or even Medevial Goth Rock would be more realistic than 'darkwave'. But I admit to not liking EBM and other modern electronic noise bands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshSexyBoi66688 Bella Morte can lick me. They piss me off like ThouShaltNot pisses me off. Then again, there's a vocal styling that I just don't like and anything that sounds even remotely close to the vocal stylings of pop-punk turn me off.

Good one XD
Oh, but I rather like Morte. I am not too fond of their combination of synthpop with deathrock. I fear the term 'DeathPop' will soon apply to music with bands such as 'This is the Nu Stuff' with songs like 'RatPhuked'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshy the Birthday Boi What blows my mind is where the goth community and the music are becoming seemingly like two different entities. Harsh EBM and Industrial are VERY popular in the goth clubs in my town and you're usually snubbed for asking for a bit of Danse Society or The Birthday Party.

Granted, because they're appreciated like Specimen and Alien Sex Fiend were in the Batcave in the eighties. No one mentioned the Velvet Underground and Bowie. A beautiful thing of our subculture is that there are styles that are relevant to many different areas of music. There's Dark Cabaret or Etheral, Industrial sounding goth music. I do think that our subculture SHOULD focus or acknowledge Deathrock and Batcave Goth. And if insults are made regarding such bands and styles, then this is not goth. Or, metaphorically people are attemtping to view our subculture as something not goth at all, but BOOMBOOM BLEEP BLEEP.

Quote:

The flamboyance of goth has been replaced with the aggro attitude of Industrial. I'm of the mind that true goth is getting way more rare than Industrial. But from what I've seen, Industrial and its harsh cousins have become the life blood of Goth.

Got me seduced, and when you left in the morning took my words with you

;)

Quote:

Out of the six months I've been a member of the Louisville Goth scene, I've heard Specimen ONCE and Cities in Dust was played, but as a harsh electro cover, which isn't that bad actually. I know a shit load of people would disagree with me on these points, but walk a mile in my shoes in my town and you'll soon notice that the times are changing. Hell, they've been changing. You can do your own field research and find out yourself. People have become more rivetheaded in public. Goth music has become something you listen to in private it seems.

Got an allie, and a friend. :)
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

Well, in a nutshell if I went to one of the goth clubs and they actually played nothing BUT goth rock and deathrock, I would fucking shit. I seriously would. But I think I'd be more happy than anything. Though I'd probably be the only person there too. LoL!

Granted, I agree. I would venture to say goth rock and darkwave are fairly interchangeable, but it seems that "goth" is a bad word when you use it correctly.

It's a damn shame when MCR and HIM are considered goth but Cruxshadows would be pretty much crucified if they claimed it.

Good stuff, Bleak but Sherry!
Oh, remember tha night, Josh? On myspace and Gnet you freeeaaaMickey Mouse Klubkked out when seeing that interview. Poor thing. You were so mad at Peter Murphy. But I tried to calm you down with my randomness and a gruesome feeding of Gerard Way lash outs.
This is MTVs' fault, as Lykaios mentioned. They're like the DeeJays who played Depeche Mode with Virgin Prunes and that's basically WHY we now have New Industrial and other electronic music genres mixed with our subcultures' music. Had they not done so, then The Sisters probably wouldn't pretend to hate us so much.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

Ultimately the influence of EBM in the scene goes back to Killing Joke. Weird thing to say maybe, but then if you listen to early Nitzer Ebb you find that the guys from Essex were playing with electronic instruments in the same way early Killing Joke were playing about with the punk sound five years before. There is nothing wrong with this sort of experimentation. But of course present EBM sounds a long way from the minimal soundscapes of early Nitzer Ebb.

What seems to be lacking is the element of glam camp that the Batcave bands had in particular. Such is not a requirement of the Goth aesthetic, but it is part of it - as you say 'The flamboyance of goth has been replaced with the aggro attitude of Industrial.'

And it is not just Industrial which has rejected the subversive androgyny at the heart of Goth. As someone with their feet firmly planted in Art-School Punk I find the idea of Gothic Metal an anathema, as it so frequently represents traditional gender roles and 1950's images of rebellion. Metal strikes me as a deeply macho, un-alternative and conformist musical genre.

I'm not saying that all Goth guys need to look like Rozz or Jonny, but it seems as you said that this kind of aesthetic is no longer so much part of the scene.

And here I will give the non-rivett Cybers a couple of points. Because at least they share aspects of this aesthetic, and elements of synthpop and futurepop embrace a bringing together and blurring of male and female.

Give my Gary Numan over the Sisters any day. It was their reinterpretation of Goth into a darker version of MTV style stadium cock-rock that helped get us in this mess in the first place, and ultimately brought metal into the scene.

Well, I suppose if you mean goth as a label we apply to music, or goth as a label we apply to ourselves. The latter is far trickier, and while goths ought to be people who listen primarily to goth music, there's a lot of wiggle room there.

As far as goth as a label we apply to music, at this point I agree that it's been moving to an umbrella. Unfortunately, this makes it more complicated to find the stuff that actually *is* goth, but that's not really news.

As far as darkwave is concerned, while Nightbreed records would have you believe that all darkwave bands have a guitar, for bands like Attrition who more or less dig all the legwork on the genre, guitars were very absent. It's really only since the 90's that darkwave has been associated with guitars - there's about a 9-10 year span there where it wasn't. I think a lot of this has to do with everyone being up the Sisters' asses for a while.

Now, in regards to EBM, I would argue that Killing Joke had very little (if anything) to do with it. I think it's a correct observation with little application. Really, EBM was more influenced by bands like SPK, Suicide, and other synthpunk bands from the late 70's and early 80's. In fact, Front 242 coined the term Electronic Body Music after SPK's term for their music, Body Music. So while punk played a part, Killing Joke arrived too late to be an influence, and was probably more influenced by these bands themselves than influencing others. Not to say they didn't influence EBM artists (they may have), but if they did it was second hand.

As far as future pop is concerned, and the fashion that surrounds it, I can only say thus: the music is pure pop drivel, and the aesthetic is a pathetic imitation of something the fans of this music have no desire to understand. I wouldn't say that cybers are these amazingly autonomous forward-thinking goths; more like name-brand whores who want to buy a uniform and take the easy way out.

I definitely agree with everyone that gothic metal is not goth. It's an obvious nick from the music industry to try to cash in on something; this isn't uncommon, and usually always annoying.

I also agree with "alternative" being bogus. I remember when this term didn't exist, and how revolted we all were when we found out we were being called it. Especially once all the little kids who latched on to the marketing started appearing, and how they had no actual interest in good music, just suburbanized cock rock.

I should correct myself. It was DAF who coined the term Body Music, which Front 242 named Electronic Body Music after. Both were very influence on the beginnings of EBM, and for some reason I confuse the two a lot, even though I shouldn't.

Bon Harris from Ebb cites Killing Joke as an influence, along with the synth-punk folks. Although Ebb and 242 are some distance apart.

Weird.

Most people I know who tend towards the Cyber side of things seem to have more appreciation of of Goth's musical roots than many 'average' Goths, who tend to have no concept of the music at all. They just like dressing all spooky!

But maybe I am thinking more Synth-Goth perhaps? They listen to Numan and Attrition and Motor and Dandi-Wind rather than VNV Nation. I would rather have them use the Goth label than anyone who listens to Metal, even though many of my very closest friends seem to have jumped from the Sisters of Mercy to bad Metal in the early 90's.

I get the feeling that the US 'scene' is full of Corsetted gal's in falls and rivett guys pretending they are in the army ...

That's interesting to know; they definitely flirted with electronics, and had all those awful "industrial metal" bands afterwards. It's really just a matter of how far back in the chronology we want to go, I guess.

Maybe that's something that different between the two islands? Over here, most cybers are the people listening to VNV and Apop, and calling themselves goth despite it. I can't speak for everywhere of course, but I've had friends and associates voice similar complaints in Detroit, NYC, Florida, SoCal, and LA.

Heh, your guess is as good as mine. Thankfully I've got my night in Providence, so I don't have to look for alternatives here, but I have been told they're amazing awful. Boston is Boston, and things never change there. Most of the cyber types are gone now, though. I haven't seen hair falls in person in years.

I get the general feeling that outside of a few pockets, the "goth scene" has mostly degenerated into a giant rave with pvc instead of ecstasy. The deathrock scene here is a giant stand against that, and probably resembles more what you'd expect. Your typical deathrock night in the US would more or less resemble something like Dead and Buried over there.

Everyone just seems to listen bad Rock and Metal round here.

I blame the Sisters of Mercy.

D'ya have the New Dark Age Comps?