[Saya]

Originally Posted by JCC

No, but if someone tells you how you need to act to get to St Johns and then states that St Johns is the perfect place that everyone should strive to be, it's being coercive.

The acting are guide lines, nothing more. Zen Master Ikkyu was drunk all the time and fucked whores, for example. Everything we are given we take with a grain of salt. To succeed one must have Great Faith, Great Doubt and Great Determination. Always always question everything, and do not even become attached to your own beliefs.

Besides, it does not dictate anywhere that this is something that everyone has to do. Traditionally it was usually the monks who were devoted to achieving enlightenment, it wasn't expected of laymen.

Yeah, I'm looking for fault in it. I shouldn't be able to find any, and I can. I would love for someone to make a real argument for Buddhism that wasn't easily dismissable, so far I've not seen it. I'm fine with you telling me how I'm wrong, and putting forward what is right. However, you're wasting your time if you think I'm going to change what I think purely because you come in without saying anything as to why I'm wrong, and tell me I'm wrong.

I'm putting forth whats right but you just dismiss it.

This is the problem. I've not been corrected, I've been told I'm wrong, I've had Saya tell me that I'm merely reading the wrong version. I've not had anyone actually discredit anything I've said. Maybe I was quick to dismiss Saya's point about mistranslation, but she didn't even give a source and I've never heard it described as "attachment".

I didn't say you're reading the wrong version (actually, what version of what? What are you reading this from?), just that you look at the word and don't even seem to care what it means to Buddhists. I have no problem using the word desire, but like I said, for someone to understand what is meant by that more research is needed. And the original Pali word was Trsna, which means "thirst." I already listened three books for reference and sources, Aitken's The Morning Star is what detailed the translation history, but if you don't want to read a book there are a few websites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths desire is not here

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html attachments

http://www.buddhaweb.org/ attachment to desire

http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble.htm attachment to desire

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/4_noble_truths.html attachment, anger, ignorance

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...letruths.shtml
"Trsna: The root of suffering can be defined as a craving or clinging to the wrong things; searching to find stability in a shifting world is the wrong way."

http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/tr...leTruth-2.html attachment to desire or craving

http://www.buddhist-temples.com/budd...le-truths.html craving

http://buddhism.about.com/od/thefour...obletruths.htm craving

http://www.maithri.com/links/article...obletruths.htm attachment

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...r-Noble-Truths craving or attachment