[Saya]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

I can't fucking believe it, but I must admit that at this point in my life I agree with what Kontan is saying.
Obviously a year ago I would have leaned towards Saya's side, defending the religiously zealous by pointing out the various good little deeds they do, but now that I think about it more I've come to the "mind blowing" conclusion that anyone can do good little deeds.
I've tried to steer away from religious and political topics on this forum and even in real life as to not make a fool of myself anymore than I already have in the past, but I want to speak my mind on this.

I like how Kontan describes religion as an opiate, because that is exactly what it is, a feel good drug. Humans obviously don't want to deal with pain, and when there is pain it's nice to blame it on something dark and evil. This is great and all...but it absolutely sucks giant, donkey dicks when you're questioning the truth and then something really bad happens. Because all this time you had something to go to. And then all of a sudden you don't. I know this because I just went through it. Here I am crossing over to atheism and then BAM I find out my brothers in the emergency room, close to dying. At that moment I wanted to go to God sooo fucking bad, I needed him. But he wasn't there, there is absolutely nothing there, all those times I prayed I was just praying to myself.

It was a HUGE wake up call. A perfect God would never create a world as fucked up as this one, he would never allow his "children" to have to suffer horrible diseases, for babies to get *aped and tortured...etc. etc.

We should learn how to deal with ourselves, let go of religion, and grow the fuck up.



(I apologize to everyone for having to deal with my ignorance in the past, I know I was a fucktard.)

I used to be like Kontan and have a vein pop in my head whenever I heard of anyone suggesting religion was capable of anything good. Maybe its going from one extreme to another, and I understand we live in two different countries. I don't mean to sound like Canada is enlightened our anything, but for the most part we've straightened out how to live with our differences, and I know it can work. We find other things to fight over most of the time. I do realize if you grow up in the south its not that easy to believe its possible.

But it doesn't have to be an opiate. I'm not deluded. As I said before, people have to realize it is a deeply personal thing. Its not something to make me feel better, it doesn't always feel good, but it cuts to something deep in the core of my being and its very difficult to put into words, much less argue about it. And its why I wouldn't ever try to convert someone, I can't make them have that experience. Organized religions have their doctrine, teachings and prescriptions, but the individual's faith is very personal and, well, individual. Maybe Christians have a similar feeling to mine, but ascribe it to God. Its not something you can study in a text book. I study religions in school all day long, but at the end of the day I can't tell you what its like being a follower of other religions. What is it like being a Taoist or Jainist? I don't know. Its not something I can convince them isn't true, if thats where their belief comes from. To do so would be to ask someone to deny their own experience, yes? What am I freeing them of, if I try to convince them that they are being deluded to submit to an evil evil doctrine?

Religious people can be incredible douche bags, yes, no denying that. Being the personal experience it is it has no place in government policies, and its no excuse for bigotry. If they decide to try and use their religion to manipulate others, they're asking to be put on the stand and having their doctrine questioned and thrown back in their faces. I don't defend zealots, but I'm willing to defend religion in general. But the quiet Christian minding his own business? Doesn't bother me. People deserve to question it themselves, and come to their own conclusions, whatever they may be. Its nice to have friendly debates, but at the end of the day you have to pick your battles. And when they are genuinely doing good (and many many many religious people do), and are on my side (as many religious organizations/charities are), why the hell would I antagonize them?

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

This doesn't make sense. You can do charitable things regardless. . . I find religious charity to be mostly a ministry tool. I should know... I've volunteered enough at church in my lifetime.

Depends on what it is, doesn't it? Like my church raised a lot of money for UNICEF, didn't give them an opportunity to teach Bosnian children the word of God. My parents probably wouldn't have thought of it on their own. When I did take advantage of a church offering services, like their basement, they didn't try to convert us one bit. A lot of people genuine want to help, and like I was saying, religious communities generally can really foster that sort of desire, and give them the opportunity and backing to do what good they want. If you're in a room once a week with people beating it over your head about the brotherhood of mankind, and then say "hey, want to help out with this?" you're probably more prone to help than if you stayed at home. Like I said, not that religious people are better or anything, its just like LaBelle put it, a very easy access point to these things.