[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Neopaganism and Wicca hardly count as "religion" for the purposes of this debate. They're completely politically insignificant and therefore don't have a measurable effect on the abortion debate, or really anything other than allowing crazy cat ladies to romanticize their own lives.

I don't think something shouldn't be considered a religion because it doesn't make your point or it doesn't care about politics.

So the less religious you are, the less likely you are to be pro-life/misogynistic, yes?

If you're Christian! Otherwise, doesn't seem to work.

Without that religious brand a racist/sexist/bigot is easier to identify. Without religion there is less of a reason to indoctrinate children to respect traditional (Patriarchal) social structure.

Dude, my dad's atheist and my mother is religious. Dad was the one who wanted us to be delicate little girls and we weren't allowed to join the hockey team. Mom was the one trying to get me to dress like a tomboy. Patriarchy will survive as long as gender roles exist and men want to hang on to their privilege.

Religion gives the perfect, unassailable excuse to behave in an illogical manner: "It's faith, it's personal, and therefore you should respect my misogyny OR ELSE."

By defending religion you are actively working to perpetuate a system who's interests, even when done liberally and moderately (in conflict with it's own scriptures and tenants mind you) are in direct conflict with your own.

I've never heard that fly, but "you're killing babies and you need to respect my opinion" and "women are women and men are men and you have to live with that" and various other misogynistic talk I hear is all without religion. As a person living in a secular society, I promise you, patriarchy never went away or lost its power.

See, again, "religion" is a huge term. I can easily say not all religions are misogynistic and its true. You're saying Christianity is the only one that matters, and that is "religion".

Graus, I think if I've read Saya right, she has a professional interest in making sure that religion is viewed as something relevant. Think of it as ensuring her job security. When it comes to tough questions, Saya must become a religious apologist.

I don't work at a religion factory? What are you getting on with?

Originally Posted by Grausamkeit

Saya, you know me too well to believe I would seriously advocate stabbing stupid asshats. I am confused as to why you are arguing that religion has naught to do with misogyny. If you read anything about the Victorian Era of feminism(don't they cover that in feminist studies?) then you should already know that religion was relied on back then to keep women in their 'place' just as it was to justify slavery. Religion has been used to justify and encourage misogyny long before the second wave of feminism.

Certain kinds. Religion wasn't a big thing unified against the first wave either. In fact before the first wave most arguments FOR women's rights came from a religious perspective, Simone de Beauvoir got the idea of "biology isn't destiny" from a Calvinist preacher in the 17th century who argued that other than genitals there is no significant different between men and women, therefore women should be able to do any kind of work they are able to. And during the first wave many feminists joined progressive churches, such as the Universal Unitarians who helped feminists in their work (i.e. Lucy Stone) or the Salvation Army, which was cofounded by a woman who fought for women's right to preach and speak in public.