[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

All religion cares about politics. It's just that Wicca and Neopaganism are too weak to oppress people at this time. Back when the Pagans were in charge we had regular bouts of human sacrifice in the name of their Gods. Neo paganism is simply a cleaned-up version of this, but if you think it wouldn't seek political and social hegemony you're out of your mind. That's what religion DOES.

All of them? Excluding Tibetan Buddhism, Buddhism does in some countries become dependent on the state gain political power (present day Thailand, feudal Japan) but mostly Buddhism has been concerned with enabling monks and nuns to shy away from public life, and that includes politics. Lay Buddhists weren't expected to be particularly religious, and often in Asia lay Buddhists belong to other religions (like in Japan today, most people are both Shinto and Buddhist). Buddhists becoming involved in politics like pacifist movements, social work and disaster relief is pretty new, in doctrine not really happening until Thich Nhat Hanh's Engaged Buddhism movement and the Tzu Chi movement in Taiwan, out of concern that Buddhism has been relying on lay people but hasn't really been giving back rather than a lust for power.

With the Abrahamic three, there are a lot of reasons they're interested in state power. Christianity was just an apocalyptic cult until it became the religion of the Roman Empire and then the Holy Roman Empire, it was turned into a religion to keep the state together. When Martin Luther broke the unity of the church, yeah heresy was part of that but the big concern was that he would split up the Holy Roman Empire, and that's what Protestantism did. Same with Judaism, it kept the twelve tribes together and the shared history and Zionism are just as important as the religion part. State power is incredibly intertwined with Christian history, but I don't think its totally doomed to be. With Judaism keeping the religion and culture was a big part of remaining a people after the Diaspora AND I JUST REALIZED THE DALISH ELVES IN DA2 ARE TOTALLY JEWS MAN, HOLY SHIT.

I'm not too familiar with Islamic history yet, I only took a course so far that talked about women in Islam but I know they had to fight for the right to practice their religion for a long time. In the case of India and Pakistan, Hinduism is pretty tolerant of other religions but in the case of Muslim vs Hindu a lot of it was cultural difference that separated them, Hindus could live with Jains and Buddhists because they were still a lot alike, but Muslims were so different, for Muslims to get Pakistan they felt it was important to their own safety and any hope of peace.

Other religions, well, some are and some definitely don't even dream of it. And again, I don't think the big three are doomed to it, Turkey is a Muslim country but fiercely secular, and Sufi Muslims (who are the majority there) to my knowledge aren't that concerned about it anyway. People are just as religious here as they are anywhere, but usually churches raise their voices to the political level when they see injustice, such as the United Church (which is made up of Presbyterians, Congregationalists and Methodists) when it lost what political power it had now raises its voice to fight for LGBTQ rights and abortion rights, even the Muslim Congress of Canada argued for legalizing gay marriage (their argument was even if some of them disagree with it, religion shouldn't enter into public policy and they sympathize with other minorities trying to gain rights). Law regarding separation of church and state isn't any different here as it is there, at this point I don't know what to tell you except that maybe American Christians breed a particular kind of crazy. Aside from the Catholics the more popular churches of Canada just aren't very conservative. We are a pretty left leaning country compared to you, so I would say religion and society adapt to each other pretty well. By having a secular government and having leftist values does not by any stretch of the imagination means that religion will ever go away, people will just turn to religions that suit their views, and religions will also change and become more progressive.

Certainly, but you don't think being raised in a society DOMINATED by a religion which commands men to hang onto their privilege happens to have nothing to do with that?

It actually makes quite a bit of sense, all of the media that your dad consumed growing up, all of the propaganda, all of the social roles and norms came from Christian ideas of the nuclear family. Even as an atheist indoctrination goes a long way and unlike your mother he wasn't personally oppressed because of his gender, it makes sense he'd think "well this is the way things are supposed to be" if everyone kept telling him that.

Don't think so. My grandparents are agnostic, they don't like church. Sexist pigs though. He was raised on the mainland where secularism is a lot older than it is in Newfoundland, when I was a kid our schools were ran by churches and I had to take Bible study classes and pray every morning, that didn't stop until 1999, and it was still many years before they replaced all the curriculum (in grade 9, despite not being Christian at this point I still had to take a course called "Our Christian Heritage"). Despite that I never recall ever being taught anything sexist in school or Sunday school. And I promise you I was just as sensitive about it back then as I am now, I'd probably remember.

Similarly, the abortion statistics, Christians dominate American politics and culture, most people in the current secularist movement in America are coming from a christian background, and thus were heavily indoctrinated as children. It's hard enough to give up your faith, they're having trouble giving up their culture as well.

Or at least that's my theory.

I think saying that people think some forms of sexism is harmless, or believing biology is destiny is more simple and more likely. And nobody likes admitting they have privilege. Were you around when we were arguing about whether white privilege exists? If you're not oppressed, you don't want to admit to being part of the problem. If you're part of the oppressed, its easier to be an Uncle Tom about it than get upset, get angry and demand change.

So you wouldn't say that Canadian sexual politics are more about equality between the sexes than they were 50 or 60 years ago? Nothing has changed since the society became more secular?

Even back then we were pretty secular compared to you guys. We didn't throw out all the abortion laws until 1988 in a Supreme Court challenged, but the laws concerning abortion were considered unenforceable before that. Public opinion was too strongly in support of abortion doctors to convict them, in the early seventies the government tried but failed miserably.

I can't really say when it happened that Canada became really secular, the Conservatives in power now are very sexist but never use religion as a justification, like most secular sexists they just say sexism doesn't exist.

Christianity, Islam, Judaism. Those are the religions which matter.

If either Buddhism or Neopaganism gain a major political foothold in the USA and starts oppressing me, you'll hear me add them to the list.

Wait wait wait, since when does Judaism and Islam have a strong, major foothold in the USA?

And the problem with your argument with religion being dangerous and backwards and power thirsty is that any religion which isn't any of the three apparently don't qualify as religions.