The French Government bans Muslim woman from wearing the veil

[KontanKarite]

I find the niqab kind of hot. So much for chastity.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

It should be only her choice, though unfortunately that's not always the case.

My first reaction to the first woman I saw wearing a niqab was "Holy shit, her eyes are stunning." It also made her look very mysterious and kinda fascinated me the whole summer school term.
It's partly my reaction to seeing women who wear niquabs that makes me want to wear one for a bit. I'm a little curious as to what it's like.
If I were to do it, I'd want to write an essay/book/series of articles about it. I just don't have much faith in my writing abilities. I'd also have to do a lot of research, but I tend to forget pursuing other subjects in favour of pursuing art, even if I feel strongly about them.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

It should be only her choice, though unfortunately that's not always the case.

My first reaction to the first woman I saw wearing a niqab was "Holy shit, her eyes are stunning." It also made her look very mysterious and kinda fascinated me the whole summer school term.
It's partly my reaction to seeing women who wear niquabs that makes me want to wear one for a bit. I'm a little curious as to what it's like.
If I were to do it, I'd want to write an essay/book/series of articles about it. I just don't have much faith in my writing abilities. I'd also have to do a lot of research, but I tend to forget pursuing other subjects in favour of pursuing art, even if I feel strongly about them.

Sounds like it would be an interesting blog, but on the other hand, somewhat like appropriation, I think. Like, if you did it for a month, you couldn't really gain all the insight necessary to know what its like to wear one everyday for the rest of your life, or all the cultural implications that came with it, or how Muslim women who wear it might feel, you know?

I could totally be just be overly sensitive about it, it just seems like a lot of cultural appropriation shit is popular now due to things like Eat, Pray, Love, I know you're not that dumb but I'd expect such a project to end with AND THEN I HAD AN EPIPHANY YAY ME!

Back on the first hand though, I'd love to know what the reactions would be, its just that on the other hand, I'd rather read it from a woman who regularly wears one anyway.

Don't let that discourage you if you do decide to do it, but rather, keep it in mind.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I know. I'd probably do a LOT of research. I'd have to find women who wear niqabs and ask them why and what they thought about it and the bans and etc. I'd also ask people who don't wear niqabs (Muslim and non-Muslim), people who I know don't support niqabs, etc. I'd have to do research on other countries in which niqabs are normal/encouraged/mandatory. I'd have to do research on Islam in general (since an Intro to Islam course is not enough). I'd have to do research on a whole list of things that I haven't thought of yet.
I'd probably talk to various Imams about it, etc.
A year or something would be better, and I could do it IF I didn't take time off work to do it. If I don't, I'd probably wear a niqab everywhere except work and the house/family's houses.

I've never read/watched Eat, Pray, Love, nor do I have much interest in it. Probably the only epiphany I'd have would be that I really actually DID like Islam enough to convert and become a mild Muslim. From what I have heard of the religion, it's sounds pretty cool as long as a non-fanatic interpretation is taken. I just don't think I'd be able to pray 5 times every day.

[Geoluhread]

Well I might be a little of assistance there if you'd like any at anytime. I'm in a country where Niqabs are not that unusual, in any class I take there are a couple of girls who wear them.

I am muslim and I am not against them, but I personally won't consider wearing them. It's the whole I-don't-want-to-be-noticed-for-my-face thing that doesn't register, I'm an attention whore, I like to look nice as well.

Extremes are found in Saudi Arabia, and maybe even in a strick conservative environment in any muslim country. I don't really honestly know about Pakistan and eastern muslim countries (that are not in the middle east), but I hear it's not so easy for women in Iran.

[ape descendant]

This law sucks... Governments should not be worrying about what people wear...

Off the top of my head I can think of two times fashion was legislated in Europe... the Dark Ages, and Nazi Germany.

Funny enough, in some countries that have Islam as their state religion, require a headscarf for all women, Muslim or not.... it makes me wonder which is worse.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Originally Posted by Geoluhread

Well I might be a little of assistance there if you'd like any at anytime. I'm in a country where Niqabs are not that unusual, in any class I take there are a couple of girls who wear them.

I am muslim and I am not against them, but I personally won't consider wearing them. It's the whole I-don't-want-to-be-noticed-for-my-face thing that doesn't register, I'm an attention whore, I like to look nice as well.

Extremes are found in Saudi Arabia, and maybe even in a strick conservative environment in any muslim country. I don't really honestly know about Pakistan and eastern muslim countries (that are not in the middle east), but I hear it's not so easy for women in Iran.

I have a friend from Dubai, and he's not against them either, but he doesn't personally like them. Some of his aunts wear niqabs, and they are more conservative than my friend's immediate family, and are considered "uncool" by them.

It probably depends on how uncomfortable one is with being noticed for one's face. I'm so oblivious that I often don't notice much outside of what I'm thinking about, but I do sometimes go a little paranoid and think that some/several guys are looking at me. Cool glares get doled out sometimes.

[Sir Canvas Corpsey]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

This thread is full of epic lulz.

"I hate the middle east."

"I don't think it's racist at all!"

I feel the need to speak up here, probably because Versus makes me hard as rock. Given the time he's spent as a soldier, touring in the Middle East (correct-o me if I'm wrong) I can simply accept this as a result of various aspects of his time there in his particular career, I aint delving any deeper, but I just accept it without any real judgment despite the fact I would probably disagree with the actual reasoning. That's all.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Sir Canvas Corpsey

I feel the need to speak up here, probably because Versus makes me hard as rock. Given the time he's spent as a soldier, touring in the Middle East (correct-o me if I'm wrong) I can simply accept this as a result of various aspects of his time there in his particular career, I aint delving any deeper, but I just accept it without any real judgment despite the fact I would probably disagree with the actual reasoning. That's all.

That's very understanding of you. Some of the ways the past few years have shaped my perception of reality negatively has recently become apparent to me, as well. I won't subject anyone to that rant, though. I'm just glad someone saw it. What PortraitOfSanity said was fucking ignorant, but I didn't say anything because I can't expect him/her to understand without being educated.

[CptSternn]

The current French government sucks. Look at the protesting going on there. The people are no fan of what the current sitting government is doing. This is just another example of the right doing what it wants without regard of the people they are supposed to represent.

If you ask the average French person, they would concur that this law is pretty fecked.

[Still Jack]

Meh. Balaclavas are so much more stylish anyway.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

This thread is full of epic lulz.

"I hate the middle east."

"I don't think it's racist at all!"

I can't stand the Mid-west, generally. What's your point?

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Originally Posted by Still Jack

Meh. Balaclavas are so much more stylish anyway.

I keep thinking you wrote "baklava," and thought "Why's he mentionning deserts?"
Baklava tends to have too much pistachio for me. I hate nuts.
I've heard it pronounced both "baklava" and "baklawa," depending on the language.

[Saya]

Oh, I loved baklava. But I don't want to make it myself, I want baklava, not a long day project.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Hahahaha. I'd probably like it more without the nuts. I also find it to have a slightly unpleasant sweetness, though.

[Versus]

I have been known to wear a balaclava when the weather warrants it.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Alan

Jesus, how wrong is everyone here. (Not your last post, Versus; that's outside the common theme in this page)

Kontan, you can't call it racism saying that "it's probably the same than with Jewish people"
Jewish people are a specific ethnicity. There are more muslims in Indonesia than there are in any other country; these are asian muslims.

How did I miss this? Jewish people are not a specific ethnicity. We lump them all together, true, in that "race as a social construct" way, and they do share a common ancestry, but can identify as difference races. Ella Shohat wrote an article about this, actually: http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/arab_jew.html

But by and large, it doesn't matter, you can convert to Judaism like you can to Islam.

[Alan]

And when you're talking about Judaism as a religion you're not talking about Judaism as a people, or or are they simply inseparable? You know the answer.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Alan

And when you're talking about Judaism as a religion you're not talking about Judaism as a people, or or are they simply inseparable? You know the answer.

What I'm saying is that diversity has existed for an incredibly long time, and while they do indeed share ancestry, somewhat, not all but racial purity isn't exactly important, they can identify as another race quite easily, as its not something you can hide very easily either, as Shohat points out in her article about how Arab Jews get mistaken for Palestinians and are beaten from time to time. They are not a single ethnicity or a race. If you're going to use "ethnicity" as a shared culture, that still isn't true in Shohat's article of displaced Arab Jews, who largely shared Arab culture before Israel.

Is Judaism as a people the same as Judaism as a religion? Well, thats complex too. After all, you can identify as Jewish culturally/ethnically but not believe a word of the religion. You can convert to the religion but cling to the notion that racially you are not Jewish. You can convert and be welcomed with open arms and certainly included in "Judaism as a people", and your kids probably won't get the difference. If you're white, at least. The Black Hebrew Israelites certainly don't integrate very well, and aren't considered Jewish, but on the other hand, while black Jews in general are joked about a lot, they are recognized as Jews, though I don't know enough to say how integrated they are culturally as opposed to religiously.

But, regardless, anti-Semites are going to be described as racists because when you say "Jew" you think of a Yiddish person, same as an Islamophobe often are racist against Arab people particularly, and racists being the stupid assholes they are probably won't educate themselves about the complexity of ethnic and racial identity and how much of it is social construction. Because of that I do realize that an anti-Semite is more than likely against Jews as a people because they think they are all the same, much like an Islamophobe, who, only if you're lucky will think that there can be more than one kind of Muslim, and usually thats when they're feeling hateful against black people too, so yeah I think both can be identified as racist as well. As Kontan already said.

[Alan]

You just explained it in your own post.
Let's make this more laconic:
How many people do you believe are persecuted because of their religion? How many racists go up to a polish jew?
How many islamophobes complain about an indonesian theocracy?

Is it really about religion then?

[Despanan]

You're being pedantic Alan.

Stop it.

[Saya]

I'm pointing out that Kontan was right in what he said before, and there was no reason to correct him, and that you were wrong to assert that its different because Muslims are represented by different ethnicities, which most racists would conveniently ignore or use to justify their racism against other ethnicities, such as Africans, and you said Jews are all one ethnicity, which isn't the case at all, and is something racists ignore as well.

It does become about religion in certain aspects, like Jewish converts while still considered aryan would have been considered traitors to Nazi Germany, and white Muslims don't get by easily wearing a hijab either. Its not all about religion, but its still apart of the prosecution. When you hate an entire group of people, you probably hate everything about them after all, race and religion. Banning the niqab and minarets attacks different aspects of an entire culture, or the stereotypes associated with a religion or race, and is both racist and religiously intolerant.

[Alan]

You're making a case of "this happens, therefore it MUST follow that..."
but that's not what happens.
If it were, you could answer straightly the question of whether you have seen a tendency to fear an indonesian theocracy.
Muslim hatred and Jewish hatred are simply not the same thing in the immanent world; you're abstracting the respective intolerances to make them appear the same, which ignores the cultural reasons behind each respective hatred.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Alan

You're making a case of "this happens, therefore it MUST follow that..."
but that's not what happens.
If it were, you could answer straightly the question of whether you have seen a tendency to fear an indonesian theocracy.
Muslim hatred and Jewish hatred are simply not the same thing in the immanent world; you're abstracting the respective intolerances to make them appear the same, which ignores the cultural reasons behind each respective hatred.

I doubt they could point to Indonesia on a map, to be honest. And they probably wouldn't, because most seem to assume that Muslim=Arab. Most can't seem to get it in their heads that Iranians are mostly Persians.

Why can't you admit that you were wrong in saying that all Jews are one ethnicity? Thats what I'm pointing out, and thats what your argument was. My argument isn't that anti-Semeticism is exactly the same as Islamophobia, simply just that both have serious racist connotations, even though neither Muslims nor Jews are made of single ethnicities.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Why can't you admit that you were wrong in saying that all Jews are one ethnicity?

Probably because I didn't talk about Jews, I talked about Jewish people, and when you're talking about Jewish people as a people you're talking about the ethnicity. And if you read Kontan's first posts you see this is what he was talking about.