Atheism and sharing the bridge to the future

[Gloomy Sunday]

Hahahaha... Wow.

[Despanan]

Dawkins on militant atheism. <---It's awesome, watch it.

Also:

Originally Posted by Richard Dawkins

Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful![

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Gloomy Sunday

Hahahaha... Wow.

You want for Christianity to be eradicated but you feel morally superior for being "pagan"?

Wow, you're a bitch.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

You think Richard Dawkins is sexy? He's not good looking. Why should I listen to you again?

When it comes to my judgments regarding sexiness, you probably shouldn't listen to me, as my criteria probably differ vastly from most of the rest of humanity.

I have hot-pants for smart peeps and scientists, what can I say? I found Richard Feynman and Carl Sagan to be adorable. I still have a crush on both Jane Goodall and Eugenie Scott.

Being wishy-washy =/= being an asshole... I think that people have to come to their own conclusions with the tools they have to work with, luckily those tools can be improved upon, depending on the person. Being overly forceful can shut minds down instead of allowing them to open up and start truly thinking and reasoning about reality.


And I do retract my previous assertion about Dawkins being an asshole, as he is really just blunt about how he thinks. I love it when he pwns Ted Haggard's (or any other zealot's) face with words.

[KontanKarite]

Pop quiz, Ape_D. Quote ANYWHERE on this forum where Desp and I have been nothing but complete dicks without making a point. You're just railing against presentation and that's a very silly thing to go after, especially when it's the ideas that are most important.

Dawkins is blunt. I am blunt. Despanan is blunt. Honestly, the ONLY noticeable difference between Dawkins and I is that I use the F word. And cuss words are a poor excuse to call me a dick. I only get highly combative once someone offends me. I may play at being playful at first, but once I'm actually offended, I will be more aggressive with my presentation.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Gloomy Sunday

Hahahaha... Wow.

How old are you? You may actually not be mature enough for this thread. I mean that with no venom at all. You might actually not be in a position to have a valid argument.

[ape descendant]

I don't really care to re-read and review every post you ever did, just to back up my opinion of your people skills.

While I agree that religion is a danger to humanity, I know that I can not force this phenomena to just go away.

What I can do is make my own arguments, have discussions and present the conclusions I have come to in my own way. I do assert my opinions on religion especially when its brought up to me.

The reason I keep saying that one has to come to one's own conclusions, has a whole lot to do with my own de-conversion. I remember just how much of my self-image and esteem were wrapped up with my religious beliefs, I remember that it took years of study, questioning and discourse to make it happen at all.

In the end, I had to have my own epiphany that magic isn't real, god is a lie and pixies don't exist.

Discourse is quite important to the process... but really the desire has to be inside the person in the first place, otherwise it goes no where.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Discourse is quite important to the process... but really the desire has to be inside the person in the first place, otherwise it goes no where.

Wrong. I had the opposite desire, and it still went somewhere.

[ape descendant]

So, what desire is the opposite? Tell me how wrong I am... make me feel naughty.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

So, what desire is the opposite? Tell me how wrong I am... make me feel naughty.

Read the thread I lined. I actively didn't WANT to be an atheist.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

I don't really care to re-read and review every post you ever did, just to back up my opinion of your people skills.

So you're just insulting me then. Instead of understanding why my presentation becomes hotter in the face of stupid reasoning and politeness, you're just going to dismiss me as some asshole. Class act, Ape. Class act.

While I agree that religion is a danger to humanity, I know that I can not force this phenomena to just go away.

What I can do is make my own arguments, have discussions and present the conclusions I have come to in my own way. I do assert my opinions on religion especially when its brought up to me.

You... mother... FUCKER. We NEVER EVER FUCKING EVER said we wanted to FORCE superstition to the wayside. You're being fucking emotional to my aggression. I'm posting like this to show you a point. I'm flaming you because you're making a false judgment on me and you think it's correct. Not because I want to be mean.

The reason I keep saying that one has to come to one's own conclusions, has a whole lot to do with my own de-conversion. I remember just how much of my self-image and esteem were wrapped up with my religious beliefs, I remember that it took years of study, questioning and discourse to make it happen at all.

In the end, I had to have my own epiphany that magic isn't real, god is a lie and pixies don't exist.

Discourse is quite important to the process... but really the desire has to be inside the person in the first place, otherwise it goes no where.

It goes somewhere. You're dismissing the whole thing by saying that the conclusion is inherently personal and talking out of both sides of your mouth saying it has a use and that it is useless. If that were true, there's no reason to share ideas in the first place. I don't HAVE to prove to HP that his beliefs are true or false, I only have to convince the observer that I am correct. I already know I'm not going to convince HP. That was never my goal. You're implying that the realization of atheism is insular and isolated. That it's presence is only realized within the will of the personal observer and that outside forces and ideas have no impact on feeding those seeds. That's retarded.

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Read the thread I lined. I actively didn't WANT to be an atheist.

I think this is what happened to me, I tried so hard to get closer to God, that it led me to realize that he wasn't real.

[Despanan]

Part of what planted the seed, that eventually got me to realize that there was no God, was losing arguments on the internet. I kept trying to find a way to reconcile what those people had said, for years I dismissed their arguments outwright, found ways to imagine that they were wrong. Eventually I came to my senses.

It might never have happened if my ideas hadn't been challenged

[vindicatedxjin]

Creationism and being told that the earth is only 6,000 years old is what totally woke me up. Even Christians who believe in evolution have no answer for when the soul became implanted into humans. It's so funny that just 2 years ago I allowed myself to accept that as truth. Funny and scary.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

It goes somewhere. You're dismissing the whole thing by saying that the conclusion is inherently personal and talking out of both sides of your mouth saying it has a use and that it is useless. If that were true, there's no reason to share ideas in the first place. I don't HAVE to prove to HP that his beliefs are true or false, I only have to convince the observer that I am correct. I already know I'm not going to convince HP. That was never my goal. You're implying that the realization of atheism is insular and isolated. That it's presence is only realized within the will of the personal observer and that outside forces and ideas have no impact on feeding those seeds. That's retarded.

I am not "talking out of both sides of my mouth" when I advocate discussion but realize that a change of belief happens in a person's own mind.

I am merely saying that one can talk to they're blue in the face, present their arguments flawlessly and be quite persuasive, but unless the other person involved in the discussion has the proper tools to reason with, the desire and balls to bring those tools to bear on their superstitious beliefs; then they will be quite unlikely to come to the logical conclusion regarding said beliefs.

By no means am I saying that discussion in and of itself is useless. These things do need to be debated and discussed especially when there are people who wish to oppress every one else with their bronze-age bullshit and teach fairy-tales in science classrooms.

I think you're mainly miffed about the comment I made about your people skills... poor dear.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Gloomy Sunday

*snip*

I surely can't exsplain proper religion to your mind. Your mind is uncapable of such deep thinking..

If you wish to be taken seriously, this sort of condescension doesn't fly.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

You're just railing against presentation and that's a very silly thing to go after, especially when it's the ideas that are most important.

I disagree, presentation can make all the difference to how your argument is received by whoever is reading it. I understand why you're pissed off but honestly I find Despanan's tone much more agreeable than yours even though the message is essentially the same.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

I am not "talking out of both sides of my mouth" when I advocate discussion but realize that a change of belief happens in a person's own mind.

I am merely saying that one can talk to they're blue in the face, present their arguments flawlessly and be quite persuasive, but unless the other person involved in the discussion has the proper tools to reason with, the desire and balls to bring those tools to bear on their superstitious beliefs; then they will be quite unlikely to come to the logical conclusion regarding said beliefs.

Yeah. I don't expect to change HP's mind. I already said that. I understand quite well why H_P NEEDS superstition. You can't change a mind that is literally DEPENDENT on superstition. Even when you have a nicer atheist such as Alan making him doubt, he will, as always, go to bed and pray to his god, still believing in it even though all the evidence is there to support otherwise. Basically, in the face of hard evidence, he will dose on his opiates even harder. I'm willing to be wrong, but it's kind of how I'd understand his position.

By no means am I saying that discussion in and of itself is useless. These things do need to be debated and discussed especially when there are people who wish to oppress every one else with their bronze-age bullshit and teach fairy-tales in science classrooms.

Quite right. But atheistic thought shouldn't stop there. We should embrace the idea of intellectual honesty. We should hunt down truth as if it IS the holy grail. It should MATTER that what we believe is actually TRUE and not just true for those that want their truth in the closet, but TRUE for all observers.

I think you're mainly miffed about the comment I made about your people skills... poor dear.

You're just being condescending. I'm not mad about the people skills comment. I'm actually annoyed that you'd attack my character because I was sticking up for myself and the principles YOU claim to hold fiercely against adversity. That you'd actually resort to dismissing me as "the angry atheist", a very popular negative steriotype. You're being an uncle tom to your own ideas.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I disagree, presentation can make all the difference to how your argument is received by whoever is reading it. I understand why you're pissed off but honestly I find Despanan's tone much more agreeable than yours even though the message is essentially the same.

Message is the same. Rapter, I don't CARE if people like me or not on here. It's THEIR fault if they can't grasp reason because someone makes them feel inferior.

Besides. I have NEVER outright been mean. I presented some ideas a long time ago and people got butthurt and I was constantly pointing out why they were wrong and all of a sudden it's been a constant attack on my character and not my ideas. So who REALLY picked the fight, Raptor? Who REALLY picked it?

I have every right to be pissed and call someone a stupid fuckspear when they attack my character, especially when they try to make me out into something I'm not.

[ape descendant]

I never called you an "angry atheist". I don't see how I've dismissed you or your ideas.

I've tried to explain in a reasonable manner, why I go about things the way I do, I really don't care how you go about it.

I made a trite little quip, and it seems you took it personally. I would apologize but I don't think I've done anything wrong.

[KontanKarite]

A little quip, eh? You mean like how despite the fact we share the same ideals you STILL manage to alienate yourself from like minded people? I mean, let's face it, Ape. It looks like the other atheists on this forum may have a problem with how I communicate in a palatable way, but there's a pretty good consensus amongst us that you're kind of an idiot. You know, a little quip. So sure... I'll go ahead and be an insufferable dick.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Message is the same. Rapter, I don't CARE if people like me or not on here. It's THEIR fault if they can't grasp reason because someone makes them feel inferior.

Besides. I have NEVER outright been mean. I presented some ideas a long time ago and people got butthurt and I was constantly pointing out why they were wrong and all of a sudden it's been a constant attack on my character and not my ideas. So who REALLY picked the fight, Raptor? Who REALLY picked it?

I have every right to be pissed and call someone a stupid fuckspear when they attack my character, especially when they try to make me out into something I'm not.

I didn't accuse you of starting a fight, or of being disliked. If this was all because you were pissed at being attacked personally, then whatever, but you did say at some point that you were attempting to convince any observers.

[Alan]

It's stupid for people to care about the messenger instead of the message. But it's equally stupid to rant about people not listening to a message while not making it any more accessible. It's the same thought process.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Am I going to Hell HP? Yes or no?

Yes or no: am I going to Hell, or is Jesus wrong?

No, you're not. Neither am I. And Jesus wasn't wrong:

"God is not God of the dead, but of the living."
-Jesus Christ, Matthew 22:32

Jesus said he would prepare a place for us and that it would be the same place as Him.
He is speaking of a place in history, the hallowed halls of respected ancestors.

Let me give you another example: He was asked by the Jews that if a man married, then dies and his widow remarried, and that husband died and then she remarried again, and they all die, whose wife would she be? And He answered none, as there are no wives or husbands in heaven, only angels.

Jesus spoke with "milk" to those who needed parables, and gave "meat" to those who could handle it.

I like meat. But I will not take away a glass of milk from those who need milk.

[Despanan]

Wait so let me get this straight:

You're telling me that you believe there's no hell or heaven (at least no Heaven that humans can go to), when we're dead we're just dead?

As in, Jesus's suffering and death on the cross doesn't actually get anyone into heaven it just allows them a place with him in posterity?