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Old 02-09-2013, 03:37 PM   #1
Saya
 
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Girls Don't Count

And other adventures in biphoba:

http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/girls-dont-count/

Honestly I think this is what keeps a lot of queer women in the closet.
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:10 PM   #2
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I can't say I ever felt like that way myself but I've certainly heard the sentiment, that kind of thinking drives me crazy and it breaks my heart to think that people could feel that way about their own relationships.

There is a long rant tumbling around inside my head about how society only cares about women's sexuality as far as it applies to male enjoyment but I just don't have it in me to type up right now.
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:25 PM   #3
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I've been on the other side of that sentiment. It hurts.
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Old 02-09-2013, 09:14 PM   #4
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Is this equivalent to believing particular acts "don't count"? Seems like both are ways of de-emphasizing or otherwise belittling rather personal and potentially meaningful encounters.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:21 AM   #5
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No, its believing girls don't count, period. No matter how meaningful the relationship, its belittled by her boyfriends, even if it wasn't a one night thing, even if it was a girlfriend.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:09 AM   #6
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Yeah, I mean, Its not like people are saying "oral doesn't count" or "kissing doesn't count", its about belittling close relationships between women.

And, contrary to popular belief, with the right equipment, ladies can achieve penetrative sex should they choose to.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:10 AM   #7
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The virginity one made me cringe, I remember there was a thread here about it and a lot of people were saying lesbians who haven't had sex with men are technically virgins. I have a close friend who, while drunk, tried to argue with me the same thing.

Actually the whole thing punched me in the gut :/ I think my biggest regret ever is internalizing this shit and belittling my queer relationships.
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:44 AM   #8
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I've run into this sort of thing through my life so many times - once by a counsellor who tried explaining to me that because at that time my only sexual encounter with a male had been non-consensual which didn't count, then I was a virgin.. silencing both the fact that something had been stolen from me and the fact that I'd had years of amazing sexual encounters that I should be happy and proud about. I also find it especially prevalent in the D/s community.

@Jonathan - the reason that it isn't the same as "[insert act here] doesn't count" is because this pushes the idea that a woman is fundamentally changed if touched by a penis, and it pushes heteronormativity.

This sort of thing makes me want to rage-quit life.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:35 AM   #9
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I've run into this sort of thing through my life so many times - once by a counsellor who tried explaining to me that because at that time my only sexual encounter with a male had been non-consensual which didn't count, then I was a virgin.. silencing both the fact that something had been stolen from me and the fact that I'd had years of amazing sexual encounters that I should be happy and proud about. I also find it especially prevalent in the D/s community.
I'm curious about that. I'm not into kink right now but some things about it are appealing to me, but whenever I ask questions about problems and issues in the kink community I find a lot of kinky people act like there's none at all and BDSM is the answer to sexism in relationships.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:38 AM   #10
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It's disgusting to try and lessen the importance of relationships with women, sexual or not. NO ONE is a lesser being just because they don't have a cock between their legs. The level of importance of ANY relationship rests on the shoulders of those actually involved in it, not outsiders looking in passing judgement on something they cannot understand because IT DOESN'T INVOLVE THEM. Fuck nobbers like that. Seriously, just fuck them.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:21 AM   #11
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I think relationships between women (sexual or not) are downplayed, ridiculed and outright discouraged in some ways, because if we women all got together in love and trust, we'd smash patriarchy with our hammer of unity.

Sisterhood of the Hammer of Unity, needs to be a thing.

I've come to this conclusion while learning about Bonobo culture, which is rather egalitarian compared to other great apes, one of the systems that helps to maintain sexual equality, are the close-knit bonds between the females of the group, who, together help to curb things like harassment and violence from the males of the troop.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:10 AM   #12
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Very poignant.

I lie about having lost my virginity to a guy whenever people ask. (You wouldn't believe how many people seem to think it is OK to ask such a personal question) I wanted to argue that for me it's not so much internalisation, but a coping mechanism to avoid the even more ignorant/rude/annoying follow up questions.

Ironically enough, however, I felt the need to add that I did have the boyfriend but never let him go all the way. I already had it typed up in parentheses when I suddenly realised that means I do it too...

Funny how you are always more affected by these things than you care to admit, even to yourself.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:13 PM   #13
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Funny how you are always more affected by these things than you care to admit, even to yourself.
Woooord. Even when I think I've detangled myself from it and made my peace with being queer, something or someone comes along and I realize I haven't. I've been blue since I've read this.
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:45 AM   #14
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Argh, spamalicious! Ignore my stupid advice ages ago about infractions, they don't do anything. *reports*


Yeah, it's a really widespread idea that women being together is either mainly for the benefit of men or could never be as important.

So much bullshit and politics involved in human sexuality that it's hard to imagine making peace with... and there's still a lot of homophobia around.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:20 AM   #15
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I'm curious about that. I'm not into kink right now but some things about it are appealing to me, but whenever I ask questions about problems and issues in the kink community I find a lot of kinky people act like there's none at all and BDSM is the answer to sexism in relationships.
Oh tell me about it. If I were to rant about problematic issues in the kink community it would start with heteronormativity and end with sexism, or would it be the other way around... maybe I'd jump back and forth.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:29 AM   #16
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I'm curious about that. I'm not into kink right now but some things about it are appealing to me, but whenever I ask questions about problems and issues in the kink community I find a lot of kinky people act like there's none at all and BDSM is the answer to sexism in relationships.
Of course there would be problems and issues in kink. It's not exclusive to kink or necessarily more prevalent, and the explicit boundaries are meant to avoid those issues.. but there are dickheads in every group, and you do often get the sleazy predatory types allowed to continue in the goth or kink communities.

I think the denial that it could happen ever is due to there being an existing belief in vanilla communities that kink=abuse, and the organisers of munches not wanting kink to be stigmatised further.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:56 PM   #17
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Mmmmm specifically what was said to me was that the the D/S system inherently prevents abuse because the submissive is the one really in control, and if everyone subscribed to it, the world would be a better place. And being submissive is so empowering and that's why all/most women are submissive.

Also kinda want to rant about my sister last night, we were talking about dating people younger than us, specifically when there's not a large age difference but they're still in the "party all the time" phase and you're in the "a quiet night at home with tea" rut. Before me and Versus started dating I really liked this girl, but then I found out she was only 18, and I knew once she was 19 she'd want to be downtown all the time (and true enough, its what happened). But then my sister said "Wait, I thought you didn't go out with her because you realized you like dick too much."

I hate allies sometimes.
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:05 AM   #18
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Mmmmm specifically what was said to me was that the the D/S system inherently prevents abuse because the submissive is the one really in control, and if everyone subscribed to it, the world would be a better place. And being submissive is so empowering and that's why all/most women are submissive.
AAAAAAArgh, that shit makes me want to tear my fucking hair out, so badly. The D/s system is easily abused, there are plenty of shitty, self-entitled D-types who treat their subs like shit and expect their subs to just take it 'because that's what "true" subs do'. Subs do have power in the relationship, but the whole fucking point of submission is that you give a negotiated amount of power away.

The idea that all or even most women are submissive is so fucking problematic, especially with all the shitty stereotypes surrounding subs. Like that they're just lazy or don't want to make decisions for themselves, which is in and of itself complete and utter bullshit. Most of the literature I've read on power exchange are written assuming male-dom/fem-sub often ignoring fem-dom/male-sub and gay power-exchange relationships altogether. Even dominant women are often treated like they're only there to service top for men's kinks.

I don't have a problem with people who wish to take part in a power-exchange relationship of their choice, but for fucks sake, don't pretend you're awesome and edgy when it's something that's been a regular part of vanilla life for millennia.

The whole idea that D/s is fool proof against abuse is laughable. The dynamic itself attracts all sorts of abusive douche-bags who are just dying to mistreat someone, which is why having communities that are aware of this type and actually clean house, are so important, as many newbie subs end up with abusive d-bags their first few goes at the scene. However depending on the community, such patterns of predatory behavior are often outright ignored because r*pe culture is EVERYWHERE, and 'maybe she's just lying about it'.

Mind you, that isn't necessarily how every one acts, many people in the kink community are hella ethical and honest folks. Most are really big on things like safety and especially consent. Good communities kick people out for violating either or even just generally acting like an entitled douche, which serves to make a community a safer place.

I can understand the desire to present kink in a positive light can tempt some to sweep the inherent problems under the rug, however, openly and honestly discussing problematic things would be much more efficient.

Quote:
Also kinda want to rant about my sister last night, we were talking about dating people younger than us, specifically when there's not a large age difference but they're still in the "party all the time" phase and you're in the "a quiet night at home with tea" rut. Before me and Versus started dating I really liked this girl, but then I found out she was only 18, and I knew once she was 19 she'd want to be downtown all the time (and true enough, its what happened). But then my sister said "Wait, I thought you didn't go out with her because you realized you like dick too much."

I hate allies sometimes.
*eyeroll* Yeah, cause you know, dick is just everything.

F-ing bi-erasure.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:01 AM   #19
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Mmmmm specifically what was said to me was that the the D/S system inherently prevents abuse because the submissive is the one really in control, and if everyone subscribed to it, the world would be a better place. And being submissive is so empowering and that's why all/most women are submissive.
*facepalm*

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The whole idea that D/s is fool proof against abuse is laughable. The dynamic itself attracts all sorts of abusive douche-bags who are just dying to mistreat someone, which is why having communities that are aware of this type and actually clean house, are so important, as many newbie subs end up with abusive d-bags their first few goes at the scene. However depending on the community, such patterns of predatory behavior are often outright ignored because r*pe culture is EVERYWHERE, and 'maybe she's just lying about it'.

Mind you, that isn't necessarily how every one acts, many people in the kink community are hella ethical and honest folks. Most are really big on things like safety and especially consent. Good communities kick people out for violating either or even just generally acting like an entitled douche, which serves to make a community a safer place.

I can understand the desire to present kink in a positive light can tempt some to sweep the inherent problems under the rug, however, openly and honestly discussing problematic things would be much more efficient.
I want to squish you for putting it so perfectly Ape.
Glad someone else is seeing this stuff. I've having and seeing huge problems in my community (mix of goth/fetish identified people) because they don't clean house or allow open discussion about harassment/predatory sexual behaviour/stalking. Been finding it a pretty unsafe space actually and have started to recede from the community as a result.

*(What disappoints me is that it contains decent people and could be a good community, but speaking openly is taboo and many high in the pecking order aren't really listening or stepping up)
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:49 AM   #20
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Maybe you can start by talking to the decent folks, maybe if you put it in terms of making the community safer. Could work, it would probably take a lot of work, patience and talking 'till you're blue in the face.

I dunno, this sort of problem isn't exactly easy to solve and a group of kinky people tends to be like a herd of cats. I hope the situation improves. *hugs*
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:48 AM   #21
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Oh, I already have but the results are mixed.

There's an apathy in the community sometimes, like as long as people are drinking and having fun and the venues are making money there's no problem. You also have to negotiate the stupid fucking egos and the pecking order, generally you won't have much influence over anything unless you know people or are a fancypants scene queen/organiser. Also you get "This never happens at MY events!" (Hint - it does.)


I have spoken to some people privately after I've got to know them enough to take the risk. Some people are really resistant to listening and tend to victim blame or slut shame, others are sympathetic but don't feel like they can do anything, others disclose their own bad experiences, and others offer excuses to justify really bad behaviour and keep socialising with the problematic person/people.



But jeez, in only about 2 years, some of the shit I've experienced or seen unfold.


When I first entered the club scene as a new person, I was relentlessly followed around the club and messaged on a public forum for 6-7 months until I got the right person to intervene informally and started dating a male partner... even then I had to approach twice and was only taken seriously because I provided printouts. He wriggled out of it and still I have to put up with the creep hanging round at events smirking because his friends excuse it or don't believe me.
I'm safer now sticking around friends, but in a benevolently sexist way of being sheltered rather than anybody dealing with the fucking problem. Seeing these men still there makes going to the clubs anxiety provoking, which my partner doesn't even fucking understand.

After that I was followed around and continued to get hassled by a different male patron after I said 'I'm not interested' and 'leave me alone'. I opted to just leave the event, because security are douchebags in some places.


I've seen the public fallout after someone made an accusation of attempted sexual assault against a popular man, and the things said about the woman helped keep my mouth shut about my own shitty experiences. Later one of the people with a lot of clout who had been saying those things told me I should have come to him to complain, and because I didn't I had "let him (harasser) get away with it". People still talk to my harasser, even organisers and promoters.. they probably know nothing, but would it change anything if they did?


A friend of mine was/is being stalked long term by this guy, and he was trying to get her into his car outside the club with the offer of a 'present'. Seems legit. She went inside and told security guards who barred the guy, but he waited outside until the manager came back so he could appeal. THE MANAGER OPTED TO LET HIM IN because "he hadn't done anything yet".


More recently I openly spoke up after being hassled by this poly/fetish-presenting couple at a goth event, who seemed to be angling for a threesome.

(I was sitting behind a table against a wall and this girl just comes up dribbling all these weird compliments, then starts saying crude things about how she wants oral sex from me and touching my hair without asking. Then the guy comes up to box me in and starts acting all cocky, and doesn't leave when I say I'm not poly and I'm taken. Basically I'm saying I'm not interested.

When my partner comes over and the girl tries to high five him for 'having me' and the guy starts trying to pressure him to give his name, I tell them they're making me uncomfortable and ask them to leave. I'm pushing my hands out like 'stop'. The guy is a twat about it and demands I drop my hands, telling me he won't leave me alone until I do.) I went and complained to the organiser saying "that guy made me uncomfortable" and she speaks to him, but he still stays at the event glowering at me and starts holding another womans arms behind her back where I can see. Cool, that makes me feel more comfortable...



I love my goth community, it's like a big dysfunctional family, but there's so much problematic shit in it and nobody seems to realise that there are widespread issues. And you do get blown off or backlash for saying anything.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:59 AM   #22
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TL;DR
>Creep supportive culture
>Nobody really gives a fuck about your 'drama'
>Get a boyfriend to hide behind or it sucks to be you
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:50 PM   #23
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If you don't want creepy people following you, might I suggest you not follow any club scene?

Sounds crazy I know.

Oh hi everyone!! Dig the thread Saya <3
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:21 AM   #24
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Not all club scenes are like that, though most are, which is exactly why I pretty much only went to one club for ages. The management and security there were amazing so I always felt very safe and comfortable. I was so sad to have to leave it because I know how rare that is.
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Old 04-16-2013, 02:00 AM   #25
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If you don't want creepy people following you, might I suggest you not follow any club scene?
How about we don't resort to victim-blaming in this thread?
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