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Shill Post your website announcements here. Anything that is blatantly SPAM (nigerian schemes, make money fast, etc) will be deleted. Actually, we'd probably keep the nigerian schemes around to make fun of it. |
10-11-2011, 05:10 PM
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#126
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,932
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Oh, and to top it all off, you think referring to me as a girl is an insult?
Besides being an ignorant little shit, you're also a sexist little shit?
Aren't you just amazing?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KissMeDeadly
You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
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real classy
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10-11-2011, 05:22 PM
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#127
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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The Hebrew Bible is another name for the Old Testament, but the Torah does not include all the books of the Old Testament, so its not accurate to say The Hebrew Bible=Torah.
Because of the two different Genesis stories, Jewish scholars struggled to explain why in Genesis 1 it says that God made man and woman, and then in Genesis 2 it says he made Adam and then Eve from his rib. Lilith was one explanation (he made Adam and Lilith and the Bible fails to mention this), but the previous explanation was that Adam was a hermaphrodite and God merely took his female parts and made a separate person.
Of course since now we can say "The Torah wasn't really written by Moses" without getting burned at the stake, the accepted explanation has been that the tribes of Israel had their own myths independent of each other and the Torah and Old Testament were compiled from different sources, hence the really huge differences in the characterizations of God and contradictions.
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10-11-2011, 06:18 PM
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#128
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
You're such an ignorant and ethnocentric dipshit. Lilith does not even appear in the Torah, so it's not even a matter of you using wrong words. IT's a matter of you being 100% god damn wrong.
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Alan, I never said Lilith was in the Torah. I said she comes from Hebrew mythology. If you'd like to challenge that fact, there are plenty of mythology experts that can prove you wrong. The Torah is not the end-all be-all of Hebrew mythology, so what's you're fucking point? Lilith is a predominant figure in many ancient writings as far back as 2500 BC and her origin has always been the same. She was created by the same means as Adam.
I study mythology, world mythology, not religion. You're just trying to be an argumentative prick on a subject you obviously don't know much about, as usual.
Saya, thank you for clarifying (?) that issue.
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10-11-2011, 06:33 PM
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#129
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-deviant-x
Alan, I never said Lilith was in the Torah. I said she comes from Hebrew mythology. If you'd like to challenge that fact, there are plenty of mythology experts that can prove you wrong. The Torah is not the end-all be-all of Hebrew mythology, so what's you're fucking point? Lilith is a predominant figure in many ancient writings as far back as 2500 BC and her origin has always been the same. She was created by the same means as Adam.
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No, she's not that old. There's a claim that she's derivative of early Mesopotamian evil spirits but Lilith as the wife of Adam didn't come about until the 8th century at the very earliest. She didn't get popular until medieval times.
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10-11-2011, 08:44 PM
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#130
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya
No, she's not that old. There's a claim that she's derivative of early Mesopotamian evil spirits but Lilith as the wife of Adam didn't come about until the 8th century at the very earliest. She didn't get popular until medieval times.
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I have to disagree with you there, unless you can provide a viable source for this. Otherwise it seems largely an opinion. References to lilith date back as far as Sumarian writings. While some sources have been speculated to be misrepresentations of her, others are pretty clear. You also have to keep in mind too, that the term Lilith is often used as both a name for an individual and a term which describes spirits and entities, usually of a demonic form. In some instances Eve and Lilith are used interchangeably, more or less, as Adam named her Eve. I would say this lends to a lot of the confusion.
Some stories claim she was the separation of Adam, as when he was first created he was neither male nor female but instead both, until God (or God's servants perhaps) separated the masculine and feminine essences, while others state that she was formed separately and in the same fashion but with somewhat different materials. Adam from the dust of the earth, while Lilith from the muck and putridness of it, thus representing the evil or darker energies of the earth.
There comes a point where "fact" has to give way to opinion due to lack of information and so much history being lost, or never found, through the ages. But a lot more has been discovered in recent years where some names tend to show up a lot more, requiring the old ideas of what was and was not, to be updated.
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10-12-2011, 08:36 AM
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#131
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,700
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It's not in the bible though. Alan is well aware of the Hebrew myths.
__________________
"Women hold up half the sky" -Mao
"God always picks the strangest things to get angry about. Get an abortion or gay married and he'll aim a tornado right at you.
Rip off a million poor people and Wall street has no problems. " -Rebecca B
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10-12-2011, 10:47 AM
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#132
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-deviant-x
I have to disagree with you there, unless you can provide a viable source for this. Otherwise it seems largely an opinion. References to lilith date back as far as Sumarian writings. While some sources have been speculated to be misrepresentations of her, others are pretty clear. You also have to keep in mind too, that the term Lilith is often used as both a name for an individual and a term which describes spirits and entities, usually of a demonic form. In some instances Eve and Lilith are used interchangeably, more or less, as Adam named her Eve. I would say this lends to a lot of the confusion.
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I'm sorry, you have an earlier source than the Alphabet of Sirach that references her as Adam's wife? there's my reference, where's yours?
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Some stories claim she was the separation of Adam, as when he was first created he was neither male nor female but instead both, until God (or God's servants perhaps) separated the masculine and feminine essences, while others state that she was formed separately and in the same fashion but with somewhat different materials. Adam from the dust of the earth, while Lilith from the muck and putridness of it, thus representing the evil or darker energies of the earth.
There comes a point where "fact" has to give way to opinion due to lack of information and so much history being lost, or never found, through the ages. But a lot more has been discovered in recent years where some names tend to show up a lot more, requiring the old ideas of what was and was not, to be updated.
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New sources? Did Dan Brown write about her? CITATION NEEDED.
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10-12-2011, 03:55 PM
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#133
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: northeast us
Posts: 887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya
I'm sorry, you have an earlier source than the Alphabet of Sirach that references her as Adam's wife? there's my reference, where's yours?
New sources? Did Dan Brown write about her? CITATION NEEDED.
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I'd give better than average odds he found out about her from an old White Wolf RPG suppliment.
http://www.amazon.com/Revelations-Da.../dp/1565042379
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10-12-2011, 06:06 PM
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#134
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
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I remember even Beckett tried to be somewhat accurate, "oh, this is an old LILITH FIGURE."
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10-15-2011, 12:34 AM
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#135
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya
I'm sorry, you have an earlier source than the Alphabet of Sirach that references her as Adam's wife? there's my reference, where's yours?
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I believe you are right Saya so I must apologize. I can't find explicit reference of her being Adam's first wife prior to the Alphabet. However, she is referenced from several other sources, not just Hebrew or Babylonian. She's also been found in name and depiction on artifacts from that era. In most every reference she is associated with demons, shadows and the underworld. Usually in the form of a succubus. I wish I had some Joseph Campbell books handy to help explain my position on this but I currently do not.
There are other mythologies similar to Lilith from various parts of the world, which lend credence to her origins. Just one example; in Polynesian/Maori mythos, the Creator made woman from mud, had a daughter with her, married the daughter and had children with her. When the daughter found out, her disgust and resentment turned her evil. She left their home and became goddess of the shadows/underworld.
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10-15-2011, 02:22 AM
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#136
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,932
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You really think Maori mythology give credence to a completely unrelated Jewish folk tale?
Does Quetzalcoatl also prove the second coming of Jesus Christ?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KissMeDeadly
You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
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real classy
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10-15-2011, 02:16 PM
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#137
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 332
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I believe many mythologies are interwoven and stem from the same source. It's not as far-fetched as you may think.
Whether you're a creationist or an evolutionist, it doesn't matter. Both sides pretty much agree that man originated from in or around the areas of the fertile crescent and branched out from there. So why wouldn't they have carried their beliefs and mythologies with them?
All religion is rooted in mythology and they existed long before anyone knew how to record them in writings. As people spread around the world their stories evolved to adapt to their unique cultures. A common theme in most creation myths, regardless of what culture it is credited from, is that a God or some form of Deity created Man and Woman from Earth. It varies in sequence but the basic story is the same.
The Enuma Elish (Babylonian Creation myth) is considered to be virtually identical to the book of Genesis, yet in the Enuma Elish man is created as a slave to the gods, whereas in Genesis God creates man out of love, or some such bs.
Joseph Campbell attempted to map these threads in his various writings and a lifetime of studying world mythology. His work and ideas are highly regarded by many students of mythology. Yet he believed all of it was fiction.
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10-15-2011, 03:44 PM
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#138
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,932
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That means jackshit. The Lilith folk tale developed independently to the maori mythology. You're just hilariously grasping at straws because you just don't want to admit that Saya already proved Lilith was never thought out prior to the 7th century.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KissMeDeadly
You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
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real classy
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10-15-2011, 06:26 PM
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#139
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-deviant-x
I believe many mythologies are interwoven and stem from the same source. It's not as far-fetched as you may think.
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But the Assyrians didn't believe Lilith was the wife of Adam. The Hebrews merely adapted a creature and called it lilith from them, and it wasn't until 8th century-ish that she was conceived as Adam's first wife.
Blah blah blah...
Quote:
The Enuma Elish (Babylonian Creation myth) is considered to be virtually identical to the book of Genesis, yet in the Enuma Elish man is created as a slave to the gods, whereas in Genesis God creates man out of love, or some such bs.
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It is by no means identical, except to people who probably didn't read either. Tiamat was ripped in half, humans were created as an afterthought. It was polytheistic, and the gods were incredibly anthropormorphic. YHWH is in Genesis 2, to but not to the extent of Tiamat or Marduk, and Elohim is transcendent, omnipotent and doesn't create humans from the earth in Genesis 1. Some elements are similar like Tiamat being chaotic and using water, but that's it. Plus Genesis leads you up to the death of Joseph in Egypt, and Enuma Elish doesn't cover that kind of thing.
Quote:
Joseph Campbell attempted to map these threads in his various writings and a lifetime of studying world mythology. His work and ideas are highly regarded by many students of mythology. Yet he believed all of it was fiction.
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Campbell is now pretty outdated, you realize, and had a shit load of problems. He's a fun read but can't really be taken academically seriously anymore.
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10-15-2011, 07:26 PM
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#140
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,700
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Jesus' name!
__________________
"Women hold up half the sky" -Mao
"God always picks the strangest things to get angry about. Get an abortion or gay married and he'll aim a tornado right at you.
Rip off a million poor people and Wall street has no problems. " -Rebecca B
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10-15-2011, 10:47 PM
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#141
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya
It is by no means identical, except to people who probably didn't read either. Tiamat was ripped in half, humans were created as an afterthought. It was polytheistic, and the gods were incredibly anthropormorphic. YHWH is in Genesis 2, to but not to the extent of Tiamat or Marduk, and Elohim is transcendent, omnipotent and doesn't create humans from the earth in Genesis 1. Some elements are similar like Tiamat being chaotic and using water, but that's it. Plus Genesis leads you up to the death of Joseph in Egypt, and Enuma Elish doesn't cover that kind of thing.
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Enuma Elish is considered the source for the book of genesis and has been since its first publication in the late 1800s. 7 clay tablets, 7 "days" of genesis. Each tablet elaborating on each of those days. I'm not going to argue this anymore. You can research it yourself since you insist on disagreeing. I could give a shit less whether you believe it or not. It's not like I'm the one that came up with this. I just prefer to base my research on actual literature instead of opinion from a forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya
Campbell is now pretty outdated, you realize, and had a shit load of problems. He's a fun read but can't really be taken academically seriously anymore.
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Campbell was a comparative mythologist. No clue where you get that he's "outdated" as his methods are still widely taught in schools of both mythology and creative writing and to some extent even psychology. Artists writers and film producers worldwide use his methods. But I guess if you say he's outdated, then that's the word to live by, since we all know you're always right. Might want to pass the message on to Hollywood, and just about every university and college that teaches creative writing or mythology.
Excuse me for attempting to get any sort of constructive dialogue going on a subject that "should" interest more people in a forum like this. The only time anyone ever wants to say anything here is to insult or berate and try to prove someone else wrong.
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10-15-2011, 10:54 PM
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#142
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-deviant-x
But I guess if you say he's outdated, then that's the word to live by, since we all know you're always right.
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Well, seeing how she studies this and all...
While you're just some random dude that always wants to be right. So it's ok for people to trust your sophomoric opinions, but we shouldn't trust Saya's scholarly experience?
Boy! Aren't double standards the best?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KissMeDeadly
You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
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real classy
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10-15-2011, 11:01 PM
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#143
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-deviant-x
Enuma Elish is considered the source for the book of genesis and has been since its first publication in the late 1800s. 7 clay tablets, 7 "days" of genesis. Each tablet elaborating on each of those days. I'm not going to argue this anymore. You can research it yourself since you insist on disagreeing. I could give a shit less whether you believe it or not. It's not like I'm the one that came up with this. I just prefer to base my research on actual literature instead of opinion from a forum.
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I'm over halfway through my Religious Studies (and before you get your panties in a twist, its the secular study of religion, not theology, the idea is to study religions objectively) degree and I'm specifically doing a course on the Old Testament this semester, we just studied the book of Genesis and we even compared and contrasted with Babylonian myths such as Enuma Elish and Gilgamesh. Yeah, the Hebrews derived things from their pagan neighbours. No, it is in no way identical and the Hebrew myths were pretty individual. No, scholars do not think that they are "virtually identical."
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Campbell was a comparative mythologist. No clue where you get that he's "outdated" as his methods are still widely taught in schools of both mythology and creative writing and to some extent even psychology. Artists writers and film producers worldwide use his methods. But I guess if you say he's outdated, then that's the word to live by, since we all know you're always right. Might want to pass the message on to Hollywood, and just about every university and college that teaches creative writing or mythology.
Excuse me for attempting to get any sort of constructive dialogue going on a subject that "should" interest more people in a forum like this. The only time anyone ever wants to say anything here is to insult or berate and try to prove someone else wrong.
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Again, I study this shit. Campbell is no longer used and is viewed in mythology and religious studies the same way psychologists view Freud and Jung. Fun theories, but they weren't right. He was ethnocentric and tried very hard to get data to fit his theories rather than study objectively. They do not teach him in mythology or religion classes, I can see where he might come up in creative writing but otherwise, his theories hold little academic merit anymore.
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10-15-2011, 11:55 PM
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#144
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,932
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Hey! Don't diss Freud. Lacanian psychology is respected pretty much everywhere outside the States and the discrediting of Neo-Freudianism is precisely a criticism of their revisionism to Freud, not to Freudian dogmatism.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KissMeDeadly
You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
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real classy
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10-16-2011, 12:03 AM
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#145
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Freud's theories would be considered quackery today, is what I mean. You learn about him in psychology because he's the father of psychology and was really super important historically, and he was probably on the right path about some things. But he was definitely dead wrong about other things, like his ideas about women for example.
Its also not really a fair comparison since Campbell hardly invented comparative religious studies, his theories are interesting if not totally original and he got a lot of people into mythology, I watched The Power Of Myth years and years ago and loved it, but yeah, outdated and pretty wrong about a lot of things.
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10-16-2011, 01:00 AM
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#146
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,932
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Freud's theories aren't quackery. Of course he had his quirks, like the cocaine thing, but those shouldn't really be the theories one ought to think when Freud is mention. It would be like remembering Einstein for his opposition to quantum mechanics. The id, ego and superego, the death drive, the oedipus complex, the seeds of discoveries of libido and Eros, civilization as repression...
All of these things are extremely important and completely groundbraking, and certainly not quackery. Even the harshest criticisms to the Oedipus complex, like Deleuze (I assume you know how much of a nerd I am for him) who named two of his books "Anti-Oedipus", still cannot deny that the complex is real, merely whether it is fundamental, and such statements are much more developed in Lacanian psychology.
Like Erich Fromm said, outside of Marx and Einstein, Freud is the most important architect of the modern era.
But anyway, that's psychology. Back to religion.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KissMeDeadly
You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
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real classy
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10-16-2011, 03:16 AM
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#147
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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The dude emotionally and mentally abused his wife on the basis of his psychology of women and advocated for women to have their clitorises operated on and pinned down closer to the vagina if they couldn't orgasm from vaginal penetration alone. And penis envy. It wasn't just a few quirks, he downright hated women. And its not just the states, even in our psychology intro course our profs were like "this guy was really wrong about a lot of stuff, but had important ideas." It isn't to say he wasn't important or he didn't have some good ideas, but as he envisioned it Freudianism doesn't fly today. Don't know much about how Neo-Freudianism improved on what he did, so I can't knock it.
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10-16-2011, 05:04 PM
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#148
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sugar Hill
Posts: 3,887
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You know what's funny? I was on the Train the other day and I overheard two guys arguing about "the great flood". One was arguing FOR the Noah story being a fact, based upon the fact that the Noah story was so widespread, and everyone knew who Noah was, and there were no other flood stories because Noah and his family were the only ones who lived through it.
I politely pointed out that there was a Native-American story about a great flood which wiped out everyone except one man and woman who took shelter on top of Katahdin and then repopulated the earth.
Do you know what his response was? He turned to his friend and said: "See? Another flood story. Something MUST have happened back then."
It is tempting to try to link world religions into a single mythology, but William Occam's wonderful little razor says otherwise.
We, as humans, tell similar stories because certain tropes speak to something in our nature and psychology. There aren't vampire stories in nearly every culture because vampires really exist, there's vampire stories in every culture because the idea of a vampire is something which speaks to our psychological make-up.
Lilith is not seen in (apocryphal) Christian and Judaic myth because there was a Lilith, she's in there because religion is dominated by old men who have a distinct fear of sexuality and female power.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KontanKarite
I promote radical change through my actions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger
I have chugged more than ten epic boners.
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10-17-2011, 05:19 AM
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#149
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya
The dude emotionally and mentally abused his wife on the basis of his psychology of women and advocated for women to have their clitorises operated on and pinned down closer to the vagina if they couldn't orgasm from vaginal penetration alone. And penis envy. It wasn't just a few quirks, he downright hated women. And its not just the states, even in our psychology intro course our profs were like "this guy was really wrong about a lot of stuff, but had important ideas." It isn't to say he wasn't important or he didn't have some good ideas, but as he envisioned it Freudianism doesn't fly today. Don't know much about how Neo-Freudianism improved on what he did, so I can't knock it.
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http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...cture3-5-3.jpg
__________________
Woke up with fifty enemies plottin' my death
All fifty seein' visions of me shot in the chest
Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.
-Breathin, Tupac.
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10-17-2011, 01:11 PM
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#150
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Heaven and Earth
Posts: 2,606
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...did...did you come from Gaia Online...? O__o
__________________
"Follow your bliss..."
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