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Old 03-21-2012, 08:39 PM   #26
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I have not had trouble finding jobs that pay enough. Which is to say I've never had to work more then one job. The value of college has greatly diminished because it's so much more accessible, and a lot of people with a degree are on the same playing field as someone with a high school diploma or, in my case, a GED.
Thanks Versus. I suspected as much.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:15 PM   #27
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I have not had trouble finding jobs that pay enough. Which is to say I've never had to work more then one job. The value of college has greatly diminished because it's so much more accessible, and a lot of people with a degree are on the same playing field as someone with a high school diploma or, in my case, a GED.
You're in the military. Technically, it's the path of least resistance if you want some form of stability. Yes. I know that is being used loosely. I basically mean that it's the path of least resistance if you want all of your needs covered and assured.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:59 PM   #28
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You're in the military. Technically, it's the path of least resistance if you want some form of stability. Yes. I know that is being used loosely. I basically mean that it's the path of least resistance if you want all of your needs covered and assured.
I was referring to my time before the military. Though, I wouldn't blanketly call the military stable. But I suspect I don't need to elaborate on that.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:18 PM   #29
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You know what I learned in theatre school? Carpentry, Electrical engineering, Sewing, Cosmetology, Public speaking, critical-thinking, leadership, team-building, psychology, communications, the list goes on.
I was on the spotlight crew for my high school's production of Guys and Dolls. I loved the rehearsals, the cast parties, but most of all I made lifelong friends (and a few lovers). I too love the Humanities and Arts, but knowing that making a living is only possible for those who make it to the top, I make a living doing what the world pays more for, and then use those proceeds to buy philosophy books, music etc. I can't get paid to read all of Nietzsche's books, but I can easily afford them fixing systems.


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Why do you think I kept getting re-hired? Why do you think I was moved to management so quickly? Why do you think every single campaign I've worked on has become more efficient and shown a drastic increase in production and job-retention while dealing with the economic fallout from YOUR generation's fuck-ups?
I agree, my generation has been around long enough to accumulate a long laundry list of mistakes, your generation is just getting started, but the new generation of Republicans willing to use the nuclear option and treat compromise as a disease is a good start. By the time your generation reaches my age I am certain you will have leveraged world wide instant connectivity to surpass my generation's quantity of faux pas' and foibles.

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Arts & Humanities are devalued in a capitalist market because the kind of people who go into them do it because it's not a job - it's a compulsion. We produce regardless of whether or not we're getting paid, we work regardless of who's watching. We work for the sake of working and that makes us easy to exploit. Would you work 80 hours a week for no overtime no benefits and pay that's "just above minimum wage?"
I disagree, there are plenty of examples of people who love what they do and still get paid well for it. Nothing is work unless you would rather be doing something else.

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Don't you dare blame us for our passion, and don't minimize our skills or our invaluable contributions between a couple of quotes grandpa. I work 4 jobs and still have time to put my body, livelihood and freedom on the line to clean up your mess.
I don't blame you for your passions, passion is necessary, but if you decide to chase your dreams as the priority rather than earning a living, you must accept what comes with the territory. I am very fortunate in that my curiosity about complex problems and interest in electronics, computers and networks coincides with the world's needs.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:03 PM   #30
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Let's call it the market's needs. That's the crux of the issue that made Despanan angry, and as a predominantly leftist forum, we have to understand it in those terms.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:22 AM   #31
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I think he was angry about the way it was said, not the content so much.

Desp, I read HP's post in a totally different tone than you. The quotation marks weren't there to say "these aren't real subjects" so much as they were there because HP wasn't sure if those were right words to describe all of the degree subjects that he was talking about. I know exactly the attitude that you're angry about though, HP just doesn't seem to have it. If he did, the word in quotes would have been "graduate".
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:07 AM   #32
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I think he was angry about the way it was said, not the content so much.


Desp, I read HP's post in a totally different tone than you. The quotation marks weren't there to say "these aren't real subjects" so much as they were there because HP wasn't sure if those were right words to describe all of the degree subjects that he was talking about. I know exactly the attitude that you're angry about though, HP just doesn't seem to have it. If he did, the word in quotes would have been "graduate".
That is exactly why. I never graduated from college (as I said, I really can't answer Alan's original question), so I don't know the current academic vernacular. I only posted in this thread because Saya said she was scared.

I do apologize for the way I said it, but there is truth in what I said. Not everyone needs to be scared about opportunities after college.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:34 AM   #33
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I do apologize for the way I said it, but there is truth in what I said. Not everyone needs to be scared about opportunities after college.
You know I'm in for religious studies XD I think about doing social work afterwards, but truth is I'd rather something where what I'm learning is put to use. And I'm worried I'm only thinking about grad school to avoid trying to figure out a related career.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:54 AM   #34
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Unless things are a lot different up there you would still need a degree in social work in order to get a job as a social worker and most social work positions that could provide a significant income and/or room for growth require a masters or better (at least this has been my experience from trying to find a job and I figured that with a degree in psychology as well as my volunteer experience social work would have some options for me but the only positions that I could find paid so little and were almost all part time, frequently making them not worth the gas money needed to get there, or temporary positions for specific projects).

I don't mean to be discouraging, I just want to say that if you are looking at social work as a serious career option then I highly recommend going to grad school if it is at all possible.

That all being said I think you would do well in social work, I think you have the right personality for it and I think it would give you the opportunity to use your religious studies background.
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:03 AM   #35
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Oh I know, we have a fast track social work degree option if you already have a BA, so I could get it done in two years. The class size is small and its very competitive to get in, though.

And its not so hard to get a job in some kind of helpful social work-ish scenario, so long as you have a social oriented BA, like at the women's shelter or centre for new Canadians, but I imagine it helps.

I think experience is also the kicker, I'm starting to look at jobs around school and organizational work at the places I volunteer with so I can say I already have done this sort of thing. I'm thinking about applying as an editor with the school paper, but I've left so many CIVIL but very critical comments on their articles I dunno if that's going to work for or against me XD
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:24 AM   #36
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Also to add onto the other discussion, specialized skills are no guarantee that you'll always have a job, just that you might have a job for a while after school. A friend of mine just finished nursing because everyone is bemoaning on how we don't have enough nurses and she couldn't find a job with just a BS (and to be fair her mom's a nurse and she finds it fascinating, she did end up enjoying it), but as soon as she graduated, they announced a hiring freeze on nurses and she had to move out to the boonies to find any work. My dad went to college for computer repair, and it was great for years, but now since he couldn't keep up with the changes in computers over the years pretty much all he can do is fix bank and debit machines. They tried to lay him off but then they brought him back on as a contractor, so he only gets paid when the people who own the machines feel like paying their bill. Its still good money but its not solid pay.

And then there's all the people here who went to trade school because everyone keeps telling us it guarantees us a job, but it also means slaving away in the tar sands :/
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:46 PM   #37
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Doing volunteer work in your field is a great way to ensure you get a job at the end of the degree. When I was doing mine, I did all sorts of volunteer work - community farms, creek catchment authorities - everything.

You need to get a name for yourself, get a reputation and get experience, then when you graduate you have it all there in front of you, so you can show your employer that you are motivated to volunteer and study and gain experience.

At our induction into university life, there was a lot (maybe 90%) were mature age students. We were given advice to go out and volunteer - and yep the mature age ones were all champing at the bit to volunteer, shaming the younger ones into do it.

Most of the older ones, had jobs, families etc but still found the time to get into volunteering (even if it was just planting trees with LandCare). I'm not saying that the younger ones were lazy but there was some of that "I'm still at school, so I'm going to piss around" attitude with them. Whereas the mature aged students were there for a career change, and for them, it was all about business, with a little mucking around.
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Old 03-24-2012, 10:49 AM   #38
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Has anyone mentioned the culture of internship yet?

With an ever increasing proportion of the population recieveing degrees, and employers all demanding previous experience, many new graduates are forced to work jobs for no pay. This weeds out the ones whose financial circumstances demand they work unskilled jobs to make ends meet. In this way the class system has found a new way of reinforcing itself in the light of an overabundance of qualifications.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:07 AM   #39
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You know I'm in for religious studies ... I'd rather something where what I'm learning is put to use.
Good luck with that
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:36 PM   #40
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Eh, I've got a year left, with a major in Medieval studies...I'm kinda doomed at the moment.
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:43 PM   #41
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I wanna hear some experiences for you guys who have already graduated and joined the labor market.
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Old 08-04-2012, 05:12 PM   #42
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Elystan has hit it on the head.

I've about 3 months to go with my degree. I've basically been told to either expect to work volunteering in my particular field for around 3 months before looking at being paid or to go overseas and teach there. Or move to Auckland, where the cost of living is ridiculously high and get a job on close to minimum wage after 4+ years of study.

Yeah, I'll be working overseas.
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Old 08-05-2012, 02:16 AM   #43
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Elystan has nailed it, Corpsey is right, except for one thing. In addition to college kids trying to get jobs and receiving internships, there are workers who are going back to school in addition to their jobs. You can take an idea from this. Entry level experience in a particular field is better than an internship AFTER school Internships are great for summers between semesters.

If you are interesting in mechanical engineering, get a job in an auto repair shop, even if it is just to change oil at first. If you are working toward a business degree, find work as an administrative assistant. If you are in the arts and want to be a painter, become labor for a house painting company. If you are a theatre major, find a job in sales or marketing, something where you have to adapt to your customer. Psych major, become a bartender. History major, find a job as a museum janitor. It's simple, find the lowest rung within the organizational structure that focuses on what you want to work on at the higher levels. This is the first step. There are multiple reasons why this is a wise strategy, which I will detail further down the list.

The second step is that you do everything you have to in order to be a model employee and exhibit leadership potential. If you are in sales, learn your product and stretch those social skills. If you are a mechanic, learn all you can about cars and what goes wrong with them. If you are a bartender serve drinks but also learn on an intuitive level exactly what makes people tick. It goes without saying that you make yourself the one who shows up early, stays late, is willing to accept more responsibility, make the boss's job easier, help and encourage their fellow employees, etc, all that stuff we were supposed to learn in our first crappy jobs. You become the best at that lower level job, and get promoted.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Now, for the reasons this is a good strategy:
1. There is only one way to gain the real respect of employees. That is to show them that you are not above doing the hardest dirtiest work in the industry. If you've already "paid your dues", they know you are worth something. It's kind of like how a lieutenant doesn't "really" outrank a master gunnery sergeant. The lieutenant might be a commissioned officer instead of having worked his way up in the enlisted ranks, he might end up a colonel or even a general someday, but right now, as a lieutenant, people do not respect him like they do the Master Gunny. The master gunny has gone through the blood and mud, etc., he has won respect in his field. He could tell the lieutenant to fuck off and no one would say shit to him, because what he has learned and accomplished is worthy of respect.

Every once in a while, you have a soldier or marine, who starts in the enlisted ranks, gets a degree, and obtains a commission. These guys get FAR more respect than their butter bar peers because they've already paid their dues. They already know how it all works, they've been there and now they are willing and able to showcase both sets of skills. This is what you are doing with this strategy. You are showing those people who will someday work for you that you have the ability to do some of what they do, and that you do not think you are above it. This is important.

2. It also shows your superiors that you care enough about what you are doing to learn all the little stuff, and see how all the pieces and parts of your interest go together. It shows them that you are willing to put in the hard work, the grueling hours, the sweat and frustration that all go along with striving and succeeding in their industry. it makes the effort you put in personal, because it is to their benefit.

3. It actually gives you some useful experience that you can build on. I don't know how many mechanical engineering major interns I have dealt with at my employer who could not tell you the difference between a box end and crescent wrench, who couldn't find the starter on a vehicle, who didn't understand why heavier vehicles have worse gas mileage, who couldn't tell you the sequence of events that occur inside an internal combustion engine, or apply the math they'd learned to a real world situation. This entry level job will teach you those necessary building blocks for your field. If you can show that you have hands on real world ability and some common sense, you are already way ahead of the game and WAY ahead of the other college grads out there who don't have a fucking clue.

How do I know the above strategy works? Because I have employed it without the degree. In every industry I have worked over a years' time, I have advanced because of it. With my current employer, I have received two promotions and increased my annual income by 60% in just under 3 years. I have done this over the worst of the recession. I started with this employer by taking a pay cut, increasing my commute, and being willing to take on the most demeaning physical labor. Put it this way, in my first position I had bailed out mud puddles by hand with a five gallon bucket. I had worked 12 hour days in the harshest weather conditions. It sucked the big one.

However, after busting ass for six months, I got promoted into a technical department in which I had no experience but for which they were willing to train. This happened because the head of that department had witnessed that initial hard work. In the next two years, I made sure that every supervisor within the company knew I was a hard worker, intelligent, willing and able to learn new things, and interested. I learned about them as well, enabling me to pick and choose which ones I was willing to work for.

After that two years of busting ass, networking, watching, and gradually changing how I was perceived by my co workers, ( more about that below) I was again promoted, now assisting in major projects, and even being trusted with smaller ones that involved directly interacting with major, demanding customers.
At my current level, a degree is not required, but is strongly preferred. I can advance once more without it, and I plan to be at that level in another two years. After that and two more years, I should be through engineering school, and finally have obtained that frigging piece of paper that will attest to the fact I can use what I've been learning through school and on the job for the (then) past 7 years.

An additional skill you must obtain in order to use this strategy to its fullest extent is to modify your appearance and behavior to fit in with whatever level you happen to be in. Smoking was not an issue in an entry level position, but further up it is frowned upon, so I restrict that behavior while at work. Simple things, do you wear a t-shirt or a polo, or a button up? Model the appearance and social behavior that would fit between where you are and the next level up. This is a delicate balance, couple it with friendly, reserved yet outgoing behavior so you don't get a reputation for being a snob. As you climb, don't forget to interact with those you previously worked both with and for. When you become a project manager, continue to exchange pleasantries with the janitor, he is responsible for how your customers perceive your business when they walk in the door. When you become foreman, keep up a relationship with that entry level machinist, because he will remember you when the choice is made whether or not wasting material really matters. When you are upper management, continue to maintain those relationships if you want to have a clue about how your floor operates and how smoothly. these skills allow you to prevent small issues from becoming issues that make a talented

ALWAYS continue learning. That degree may help you get your foot in the door, but that is all. You will be paid for your ability, and your knowledge. Make sure that does not stagnate. Your career will match this.

You may ask, "But how do I GET that first position?" You show up bright eyed and bushytailed, you stand out in a good way, you exhibit interest in the industry, and you decide why you want to work there instead of somewhere else. That last bit is the most important. When you are searching for a job, you are looking for a client. Do your job like you run a business, you provide value for what you are paid, and you come to an agreement with your client (employer) on what that is worth monetarily. Increase value, you give them a reason to listen when you ask for a raise, or when you apply for that next job. I cannot stress this enough. You CHOOSE your employer. Do not under value this. Just as you decide to target a specific demographic when running a business, you target the job you want.

You make sure that you get to see decision makers face to face. Remember in this process that administrative staff are the gate keepers. They decide whether their boss sees what you have to offer or not. Be nice, but don't kiss ass. After the initial application process, do your best to interact with departments other than HR. HR has their uses, but they work for your client, they don't work for you, not yet.

In short, you bust ass, you work harder than you have in your life, harder than you have ever imagined.

You VALUE your time, your effort, your knowledge, and your ability. If you don't no one else will. If I have sounded uppity or like I am conceited, this is why. I value what I do. My time is my life, and I will not sacrifice it cheaply.

My focus has been primarily in the mechanical area, because that is my chosen field. I am working toward a double major in Mechanical and Electrical Engineering. I started as an mechanic. I've gotten sidetracked over the years, advancing in the food service and hospitality, industrial manufacture, and construction industries. In each case, I have advanced into leadership and/or management positions because of this strategy. It works.
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:42 PM   #44
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I don't think I'm a good person to give advice on this, but I would recommend not stressing about it too much. I've been working full time for the past 4 years, and never finished school. I start again this fall WHILE working full time. Really wish I would have finished earlier, but desperate times call for desperate decisions and now I have the financial means to continue what my original plan was. I guess the best thing to do is find a job that you'll actually enjoy or if you need experience then do some volunteering/interning, save $$$, and just have fun.
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