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Old 08-30-2008, 04:16 PM   #26
Sir_Vex
 
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Deus ex machina.
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Old 08-30-2008, 04:42 PM   #27
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Deus ex machina.
Eh... those me no likes. Especially when it comes to battles... the hero is almost dead, bad guy is bragging "blah blah blah, I'm weening I'm weening" like Rowan Atkinsons' character in Rat Race. Suddenly, the hero gains a new power at the last moment, with full health, and kills the enemy/beats enemy with newly learned move.... wait a minute*reads certain part of his manga plot* I need re-write some of this ...
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:20 AM   #28
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A popular cartoon cliche: the redheaded characters are evil and conniving. Or they've got book smarts but absolutely no common sense.
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:25 AM   #29
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Its because red hair people can't be trusted. Like Judas.
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:01 AM   #30
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Red heads are fucking hot.
All of them.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:31 AM   #31
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In books, people's hair is often described as "framing" their face. Grrrr.
And "chocolate-coloured" eyes, too.

Also, there are too many novels about other novels. Wide Sargasso Sea? Great. Otherwise, no.

I read Being Emily by Anne Donovan, and it was fine except for the constant Bronte references.
However, The Historian by Elizabeth Kostova was overwritten and pretentious, mostly, and not only that but it was about Dracula. Urgh.

In my opinion, if you want to be renowned as a great writer, at least think of your own ideas.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:41 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a morbid curiosity
In my opinion, if you want to be renowned as a great writer, at least think of your own ideas.
I actually heard of this one playwright who, although he wasn't very innovative in his story development, and in fact borrowed the majority of his plots from folklore or even his contemporaries, managed to garner a small following. His name is escaping me right now, though-- uh... Willy... something? William? William Shagspar? Anybody want to help me out here?

The fact is, there are no original ideas. Every artistic work of a given form proceeds from a tradition, and exists in conversation with the legacy of composition in that form. Efforts to ignore this and render a 'unique' piece at all costs will doubtlessly fail spectacularly, whereas the key to greatness is to comprehend and engage with the past.

Check out Tradition and the Individual Talent if you so desire, in which essay T.S. Eliot shits on what you just said even more thoroughly than I can.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:43 AM   #33
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..*applauds*...
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:48 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
I actually heard of this one playwright who, although he wasn't very innovative in his story development, and in fact borrowed the majority of his plots from folklore or even his contemporaries, managed to garner a small following. His name is escaping me right now, though-- uh... Willy... something? William? William Shagspar? Anybody want to help me out here?

The fact is, there are no original ideas. Every artistic work of a given form proceeds from a tradition, and exists in conversation with the legacy of composition in that form. Efforts to ignore this and render a 'unique' piece at all costs will doubtlessly fail spectacularly, whereas the key to greatness is to comprehend and engage with the past.

Check out Tradition and the Individual Talent if you so desire, in which essay T.S. Eliot shits on what you just said even more thoroughly than I can.
Yes, yes, very clever.
My point was not about originality of plot structure, it was about name-dropping books within books, writing stories about other stories and characters, instead of inventing your own characters. I just find it pretentious. I am perfectly aware that characters and plot lines can't be one hundred per cent original.
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Old 09-05-2008, 01:58 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by a morbid curiosity
Yes, yes, very clever.
My point was not about originality of plot structure, it was about name-dropping books within books, writing stories about other stories and characters, instead of inventing your own characters. I just find it pretentious. I am perfectly aware that characters and plot lines can't be one hundred per cent original.
I wasn't just talking about plot structures. Shakespeare didn't make up King Lear, or Hamlet, or Oberon, or Romeo and Juliet. He lifted them directly from popular myth and fable, and, in doing so, both drew upon their legends to enhance the potency of his work and contributed to those legends in turn. I hate The Historian, but Kostova used Dracula as her villain, instead of some other nefarious vampire, for a reason, that reason being a desire to evoke Stoker's novel for her readers, to allow them to view her work through the lens of that book and vice-versa, thereby compounding her ideas with a new dimension.

As for 'name-dropping', I don't understand how you view allusion and homage to be pretentious. If anything, such elements represent humility on the author's part, through acknowledgment that other writers have dealt with a given notion in a manner worth referencing. Of course, you realize that superb literary works do this- Moby-Dick begins with like 70 fucking epigrams.

Good writers you imagine to be 'original' do all of the things for which you chastise poor writers, the only difference is that they do those things well.
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
I wasn't just talking about plot structures. Shakespeare didn't make up King Lear, or Hamlet, or Oberon, or Romeo and Juliet. He lifted them directly from popular myth and fable, and, in doing so, both drew upon their legends to enhance the potency of his work and contributed to those legends in turn. I hate The Historian, but Kostova used Dracula as her villain, instead of some other nefarious vampire, for a reason, that reason being a desire to evoke Stoker's novel for her readers, to allow them to view her work through the lens of that book and vice-versa, thereby compounding her ideas with a new dimension.

As for 'name-dropping', I don't understand how you view allusion and homage to be pretentious. If anything, such elements represent humility on the author's part, through acknowledgment that other writers have dealt with a given notion in a manner worth referencing. Of course, you realize that superb literary works do this- Moby-Dick begins with like 70 fucking epigrams.

Good writers you imagine to be 'original' do all of the things for which you chastise poor writers, the only difference is that they do those things well.
I don't imagine that good writers are original. I just expect them to be imaginative. I dislike it when it writers use another writer's characters. Doing it well, however, is another matter (Wide Sargasso Sea, for example, as it tells the story of a minor character). Your mention of Shakespeare takes my point a little too literally; as you have said, Shakespeare borrowed from myths and fables, not other successful plays.

I have already mentioned Being Emily by Anne Donovan. Despite the relevance of Wuthering Heights to the plot, the constant mention of Emily in this book was completely unnecessary. It ruined the subtlety of it and made it no more than name-dropping--no, not "allusion and homage", NAME-DROPPING. Writing modern updates of classic works of literature in such a casual fashion seems ridiculous.

As for The Historian: I understand that if it was not about Dracula, it would have been even more tedious, but the fact that it was basically a regurgitation of a lot of facts and stories about Vlad the Impaler was what irritated me about it. If you ask me, that book never should have been written at all.

In my opinion, when addressing serious issues, an author should try to write from a different perspective than from just their favourite works. An author should try to express their thoughts and opinions through the way they write, and everyone's minds are different.
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:34 PM   #37
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There is truth to your observations. I for one was a bit annoyed by the popularity of Star Wars after seeing it and recognizing many archetypes and themes written by Isaac Asimov in The Foundation Trilogy.

Star Wars seems to be original to the masses, but to the well read...well it is a rehash of several stories.

It is to be expected I suppose: producers want a sure fire recipe for boxoffice success, so they take the "best of breed" from various works and put them into a potpourri.

Now they don't even do that. "Let's make a movie after the cartoon George of the Jungle! Let's do one of The Beverly Hillbillies! Let's do one of SCOOBY-DO!

(sigh)

But not one with the originality of Ben-Hur?
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Old 09-05-2008, 04:03 PM   #38
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I don't think anyone's already mentioned it, but I'm rather tired of subservient female characters who spend 90% of the book struggling against the confines of a male dominated society to suddenly find their inner strength and independence. Ibsen and Shaw come to mind...
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Old 09-05-2008, 04:41 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abeille
I don't think anyone's already mentioned it, but I'm rather tired of subservient female characters who spend 90% of the book struggling against the confines of a male dominated society to suddenly find their inner strength and independence. Ibsen and Shaw come to mind...
Most feminist literature pisses me off for that reason. If they could get the fuck over themselves and stop writing the same old vagina-as-disability shit, I'd probably enjoy the work of female authors a lot more.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:21 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a morbid curiosity
as you have said, Shakespeare borrowed from myths and fables, not other successful plays.
Nope, wrong:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Marlowe's Edward II
Gallop apace, bright Phoebus, through the sky,
And dusky night, in rusty iron car,
Between you both shorten the time, I pray,
That I may see that most desirèd day,
When we may meet these traitors in the field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet
Gallop apace, you fiery-footed steeds,
Towards Phoebus' lodging; such a wagoner
As Phaeton would whip you to the west
And bring in cloudy night immediately.
Huge sections of Antony and Cleopatra are lifted from the historial treatises of Pliny the Elder, and All's Well The End's Well is heavily based on a contemporary novel by Richard Kipling.

That someone implements a literary device poorly doesn't mean the device itself is the mark of poor writing. Whatever shitty Wuthering Heights - based book you read probably didn't use personification or metonymy very effectively, so why expect it to make masterful use of allusion?

In your original post, you said that, in order to be a renowned writer, one's ideas must be entirely one's own. You implied that The Historian's poor quality was compounded by its inclusion of Dracula as a character. I simply argued that no piece is entirely original, and that to ground one's work in tradition is to strengthen that work, not that no bad writing has ever made use of concepts originated by others, which is the Straw Man assertion against which you seem to be debating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanePain
There is truth to your observations. I for one was a bit annoyed by the popularity of Star Wars after seeing it and recognizing many archetypes and themes written by Isaac Asimov in The Foundation Trilogy.
Dude, Star Wars didn't steal from Isaac Asimov, it's a coalescence of mythic, folkloric, and literary archetypes that date to the classical era. That movie is the textbook example of a modern tale deeply rooted in mythological personages and themes-- didn't you ever read "The Hero With Many Faces"?
I don't think anyone believes that movie to be at all groundbreaking in its formula, it's popular because the special effects blew people away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abeille
I don't think anyone's already mentioned it, but I'm rather tired of subservient female characters who spend 90% of the book struggling against the confines of a male dominated society to suddenly find their inner strength and independence. Ibsen
Please don't tell me that was your reading of Hedda Gabler.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:33 PM   #41
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"The Hero With Many Faces"?
I meant "The Hero With A Thousand Faces". I was probably thinking about that one He-Man character when I wrote this.
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Old 09-06-2008, 04:56 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
Nope, wrong:





Huge sections of Antony and Cleopatra are lifted from the historial treatises of Pliny the Elder, and All's Well The End's Well is heavily based on a contemporary novel by Richard Kipling.

That someone implements a literary device poorly doesn't mean the device itself is the mark of poor writing. Whatever shitty Wuthering Heights - based book you read probably didn't use personification or metonymy very effectively, so why expect it to make masterful use of allusion?

In your original post, you said that, in order to be a renowned writer, one's ideas must be entirely one's own. You implied that The Historian's poor quality was compounded by its inclusion of Dracula as a character. I simply argued that no piece is entirely original, and that to ground one's work in tradition is to strengthen that work, not that no bad writing has ever made use of concepts originated by others, which is the Straw Man assertion against which you seem to be debating.
I did not say that one's ideas must be entirely one's own, I said that someone aspiring to be a renowned writer should think of their own ideas--by which I meant at least some of them. Writers should use their imagination. I know that there is no such thing as complete originality in a novel, and I never claimed that there should be.

Shakespeare's inclusion of themes of whatever he borrowed from is fine, as they are imaginative. As is obvious, I suppose, I am not especially familiar with Shakespeare's works, despite having read a fair few of his plays and sonnets. I thought that my mention of Wide Sargasso Sea would reinforce the point that taking minor characters and pushing them to the forefront of a novel is imaginative, and therefore, I did not mind it as long as the author did, at least, have something worthwhile to say. The Historian was not imaginative, however, it was cliché.

And, just so you know, Being Emily is in no way a "shitty" novel. It has an intelligent and moving plot, and is accessible because of its use of dialect and setting. However, the Bronte references detracted from its charm.

Writing novels about another novel, to me, is just like glorified fan-fiction. Half the time it is completely unnecessary, and looks like a desperate cry for someone to acknowledge how very clever the novelist is.
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Old 09-06-2008, 12:56 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by a morbid curiosity
I did not say that one's ideas must be entirely one's own, I said that someone aspiring to be a renowned writer should think of their own ideas--by which I meant at least some of them. Writers should use their imagination. I know that there is no such thing as complete originality in a novel, and I never claimed that there should be.

Shakespeare's inclusion of themes of whatever he borrowed from is fine, as they are imaginative. As is obvious, I suppose, I am not especially familiar with Shakespeare's works, despite having read a fair few of his plays and sonnets. I thought that my mention of Wide Sargasso Sea would reinforce the point that taking minor characters and pushing them to the forefront of a novel is imaginative, and therefore, I did not mind it as long as the author did, at least, have something worthwhile to say. The Historian was not imaginative, however, it was cliché.

And, just so you know, Being Emily is in no way a "shitty" novel. It has an intelligent and moving plot, and is accessible because of its use of dialect and setting. However, the Bronte references detracted from its charm.

Writing novels about another novel, to me, is just like glorified fan-fiction. Half the time it is completely unnecessary, and looks like a desperate cry for someone to acknowledge how very clever the novelist is.
You didn't say "I hate it when novels allude to other novels in an unimaginative way". If a writer does anything in an unimaginative fashion, it's clearly going to be a weakness. You said,

Quote:
In my opinion, if you want to be renowned as a great writer, at least think of your own ideas.
Which, considering the examples you provided-- primarily those of novels you perceived to be weakened by their incorporation of references to other literature-- certainly doesn't suggest that writers should only invent some of their ideas. Your current argument, that authors shouldn't steal every element of their work from that of others, is so irrefutable that I can't grasp why you would have made it in the first place.
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Old 09-06-2008, 02:18 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
You didn't say "I hate it when novels allude to other novels in an unimaginative way". If a writer does anything in an unimaginative fashion, it's clearly going to be a weakness. You said,



Which, considering the examples you provided-- primarily those of novels you perceived to be weakened by their incorporation of references to other literature-- certainly doesn't suggest that writers should only invent some of their ideas. Your current argument, that authors shouldn't steal every element of their work from that of others, is so irrefutable that I can't grasp why you would have made it in the first place.
What I intended by that statement was that writers should use most of their own ideas instead of unnecessarily name-dropping other famous books. I apologise, I just thought it was obvious, what with the examples I had given; seemingly you have not read Anne Donovan, so never mind.
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:53 PM   #45
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In Anime I'm tired of 14 year old heroes with hidden destinies they know nothing about at first. In horror movies I'm tired of the group splitting up when they know stuff is sketchy.
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:34 PM   #46
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I think that they were just the first and people used his ideas.
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:44 PM   #47
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^
(about the Shakespeare thing)

I think cliche twists are the worst, like when the back of the book or a movie commercial says "with a shocking twist at the end that will leave you glued to your seat" or something. The only time I was actually shocked at a plot twist was in the book Ripper (good book if you're looking for something light).

I find this to be a bit cliche but really enjoy it when later in the plot seemingly meaningless events explode into some huge plot point.
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:22 AM   #48
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I can't really think of any cliches, but the way that JK Rowling tried to build "suspense" throughout her shit and then wrap it all up at the end always read like an episode of fucking Scooby-Doo.
spot on - Same as using Greek names to supposedly add depth
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